My depressing DDO Day (Renown)

**MeliCat** · 08-15-2012, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by TheStog

I don't think anyone is confused with your position. Their response is, who cares...guild levels don't really matter.

Get over it.

They do matter. Because people want the amenities.

I hear you eris2323 and I think it sucks. Why does the whole stupid thing have to be a *competition*. The *competition* is *over*. Various people have won. Well done. No one cares any more.

Can it be changed now to a building community exercise? One that brings people together instead of rips them apart?

I am totally on your side in this.

**eris2323** · 08-15-2012, 10:05 PM

**eris2323** · 08-15-2012, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by MeliCat

They do matter. Because people want the amenities.

I hear you eris2323 and I think it sucks. Why does the whole stupid thing have to be a *competition*. The *competition* is *over*. Various people have won. Well done. No one cares any more.

Can it be changed now to a building community exercise? One that brings people together instead of rips them apart?

I am totally on your side in this.

Thank you for the voice of sanity!

That's exactly what I want - a community building exercise.

How well put.

Something that brings people together, instead of ripping them apart.

Right there. That's it.

**TheStog** · 08-15-2012, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by MeliCat

They do matter. Because people want the amenities.

I hear you eris2323 and I think it sucks. Why does the whole stupid thing have to be a *competition*. The *competition* is *over*. Various people have won. Well done. No one cares any more.

Can it be changed now to a building community exercise? One that brings people together instead of rips them apart?

I am totally on your side in this.

But that isn't what it's about. The OP has almost all the amenities as it is in a CASUAL guild. You don't "need" them to play this game, they are a perk. And even a casual guild gets most of them.

Even those who can't get into these already-established casual guilds that have these...almost every group I get into people do and offer to invite you to theirs.

It really seems to boil down to a sense of self entitlement to something that means almost nothing except having a higher number next to your name. In the end, a complete waste of any kind of turbine attention.

**eris2323** · 08-15-2012, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by TheStog

But that isn't what it's about. The OP has almost all the amenities as it is in a CASUAL guild. You don't "need" them to play this game, they are a perk. And even a casual guild gets most of them.

Even those who can't get into these already-established casual guilds that have these...almost every group I get into people do and offer to invite you to theirs.

It really seems to boil down to a sense of self entitlement to something that means almost nothing except having a higher number next to your name. In the end, a complete waste of any kind of turbine attention.

Wow, I'm sorry you feel that way - I thought I was pretty clear already.

It seems like a lot of people want to accuse others of a 'sense of self-entitlement'.

As I *KNOW* I have posted elsewhere, we just want a chance. We're not asking for anything to be handed to us on a silver platter. We just want the chance to have our large guilds, with casual players, and not be forever stuck at some guild level, forever barred from gaining levels.

Perhaps you could check my sig for some of my suggestions - but on the other hand, if you're just going to come in and insult me, maybe not.

**MeliCat** · 08-15-2012, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by TheStog

But that isn't what it's about. The OP has almost all the amenities as it is in a CASUAL guild. You don't "need" them to play this game, they are a perk. And even a casual guild gets most of them.

Even those who can't get into these already-established casual guilds that have these...almost every group I get into people do and offer to invite you to theirs.

It really seems to boil down to a sense of self entitlement to something that means almost nothing except having a higher number next to your name. In the end, a complete waste of any kind of turbine attention.

"almost all' and you miss the point. 5% xp for example. it's that simple.

it's not 'self entitlement'. it's despair and frustration.

against a system that says you *must play enough* or else you'll go backwards.

what is wrong with a system that has no backwards component? you're still working towards it and you still get there with the same amount of effort.

why do you want it to be a competition? You still have to *work* for this. But why do you have to *win* for this?

**Thrudh** · 08-15-2012, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by MeliCat

They do matter. Because people want the amenities.

But even casual guilds do get the amenities. So where's the problem?

Again, I'm not against the devs taking a look at decay rates and making some small adjustments to help out casual guilds, but the system we have now isn't that terrible. Large casual guilds CAN get the amenities even under the current system.

Edit:

"almost all' and you miss the point. 5% xp for example. it's that simple.

Ah, it's the 5% shrine vs the 4% shrine. And the 30 sonic resist. And... well that's about it for buffs. That's what the powergamers get over the casuals...

It's certainly your prerogative to demand that everyone should have access to those last two buffs...

**MeliCat** · 08-15-2012, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by Thrudh

But even casual guilds do get the amenities. So where's the problem?

Again, I'm not against the devs taking a look at decay rates and making some small adjustments to help out casual guilds, but the system we have now isn't that terrible. Large casual guilds CAN get the amenities even under the current system.

That is not true Thrudh. I don't know why you posted that. I really don't. 5% shrine? Really?

"can" is theory. In practice it is obviously not working. And again I really don't know why you are arguing except that it's you.

No point in posting further I guess. I'm just hoping they're hearing those of us who don't enjoy this competition that is so divisive of building communities.

**DragonMageT** · 08-15-2012, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by eris2323

Wow, I'm sorry you feel that way - I thought I was pretty clear already.

It seems like a lot of people want to accuse others of a 'sense of self-entitlement'.

As I *KNOW* I have posted elsewhere, we just want a chance. We're not asking for anything to be handed to us on a silver platter. We just want the chance to have our large guilds, with casual players, and not be forever stuck at some guild level, forever barred from gaining levels.

Perhaps you could check my sig for some of my suggestions - but on the other hand, if you're just going to come in and insult me, maybe not.

Sorry Eris, if you want to maintain...you must kick casuals.
If you want the 5% exp. shrine, you must kick even more casuals.
And god forbid, you want a level 100 guild tag, you must kick a **** load of guildies and trim it down to
a small active guild.

That's the system Turbine has created.

You can add this one to the list of threads, 15,818 views, 410 posts
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=361368

**MeliCat** · 08-15-2012, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Thrudh

Ah, it's the 5% shrine vs the 4% shrine. And the 30 sonic resist. And... well that's about it for buffs. That's what the powergamers get over the casuals...

It's certainly your prerogative to demand that everyone should have access to those last two buffs...

"demand" is such an emotive, manipulative word don't you think?

Even without the buffs, there is the sense of building something. Building something together brings a sense of community.

At the moment that is just not practically possible in a system that is deliberately designed to make it not possible as per Vanshilar's kindly linking Fernando's interview of the system when it first came out.

Yeah enough... no point.

**Thrudh** · 08-15-2012, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by MeliCat

That is not true Thrudh. I don't know why you posted that. I really don't. 5% shrine? Really?

"can" is theory. In practice it is obviously not working. And again I really don't know why you are arguing except that it's you.

No point in posting further I guess. I'm just hoping they're hearing those of us who don't enjoy this competition that is so divisive of building communities.

What guild level is your guild stuck at?

**Thrudh** · 08-15-2012, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by MeliCat

"demand" is such an emotive, manipulative word don't you think?

Yes, you're right... sorry about that.

**Falco_Easts** · 08-15-2012, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by eris2323

It'd be nice if you'd stop trying to dictate precisely how I play my game though, and stop telling me what is and is not important to me.

Guild levels are not the game. Guild levels are like PVP. A part of the game that should not affect the main game.

Originally Posted by eris2323

With the gentleman having 13,000 forum posts, and seems to be online every day...

Well, Okay - you go ahead and think Thrudhs a casual player.

I'm going to think differently.

I guess we could ask him... how often do you play, thrudh? How many hours a day? A week?

He's certainly active in the forums, that's for sure!

Forum activity does not mean game activity.

**Thrudh** · 08-16-2012, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by MeliCat

That is not true Thrudh. I don't know why you posted that. I really don't. 5% shrine? Really?

"can" is theory. In practice it is obviously not working. And again I really don't know why you are arguing except that it's you.

Originally Posted by Thrudh

What guild level is your guild stuck at?

Never mind... I just checked myDDO... You have a level 80 Guild. With 380 characters... Some of those are probably casual players... Or did you kick all your casual friends to get to guild level 80?

If you have a level 80 guild with casual players in it, then in practice it IS working. But maybe your guild is all powergamers. So maybe I'm wrong.

**MeliCat** · 08-16-2012, 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by Thrudh

Never mind... I just checked myDDO... You have a level 80 Guild. With 380 characters... Some of those are probably casual players... Or did you kick all your casual friends to get to guild level 80?

If you have a level 80 guild with casual players in it, then in practice it IS working. But maybe your guild is all powergamers. So maybe I'm wrong.

Currently about 38 active accounts. No one ever gets kicked - the stated position is that we don't care about renown. At the same time though we don't often add new people. There are new people I would love to be able to mentor and guild - but no way would I do that to stress the guild. We also have about 5 dual boxers in there. It is slowly making progress to 81. Yes we have seriously active members including one completionist and one working towards completionist. But a lot who just like epiccing and farming and stuff.

But I am not just talking about this guild here. It's about a *lot* of guilds with this issue. And the want to grow cos it's fun to build up... and the frustration that the system is deliberately designed such that you can't without kicking a lot of people. And the older a guild is, the more just totally lovely and totally awesome people there are who for one real life reason or another end up being more and more casual... and it just feels so wrong to kick them. Heartbreaking. It's a horrible horrible horrible position for a guild leader to be put in that position by fellow guild members and have to make a majority vote on this matter like erris here.

I know the system is *designed* that way. That you must compete/fight against renown decay or make this horrible horrible choice. I do not like that system. I don't think it's fair. I don't think it's fun. I think it should be changed.

**MsEricka** · 08-16-2012, 03:59 AM

The major problem is that no one has bothered to show eris2323 the math. I did it in another post and will quote it here.

Originally Posted by MsEricka

187 accounts @ level 70 = 106424.325 decay daily

106424.325 / 187 = 569.112 renown per day to maintain

Yes, 570 renown per account. That's it.

You're telling everyone that you can't make that much renown in one day? It's not because Turbine is punishing you. It's because your guilt mates are seriously slacking. I could understand a higher number not being attainable, but 570 per account is almost nothing. Go the guild to go run Shroud a few times a week, get guild activity up and you _will_ gain renown.

You need to convince your guild mates to take the renown as the end reward instead of the +2 mace of maiming that they're choosing so they can sell it for 57pp. For you, at this point, the system isn't broken. It's the players mentalities that are broken.

Now that you know how to fix it, stop posting about how broken it is and go do something about it.

Now go earn renown. Run Shroud, run DQ, run Tempest Spine. Ah heck go run inspired quarter, so many chests and the quests only take minutes to do. And if the issue is low level characters then go run The Kobolds' New Ringleader, Irestone Inlet, Redwillow's Ruins, Devil Assault, the House D Depth quests and anything in the Phiarlan Carnival.They're all fast and full of chests. (ok, maybe Devil Assault isn't fast, but it's fun and lots of chests)

Motivate your guild to do something, anything!

**Blank_Zero** · 08-16-2012, 04:46 AM

Honestly, we are level 80 because of the modified guild size and the fact that when we are online, we play hard (most of us anyhow.)

As far as the math goes, 187 accounts is a high number of ACTIVE accounts. Are you sure some of them aren't active? Inactive accounts do not count for decay purposes.

Also, as others have said, please stop equating kicking a guildie to killing them. It trivializes the word and there is absolutely no comparison between the terms and their meaning.

Also also, maybe you should kick a few folks if they are unable to play due to real life issues. Maybe they would not have worry about dragging you all down while they deal with homelessness or fighting in a warzone. There is always the option of the friends' list. Just keep an eye out for them. Let them know what happened personally.

Or, you could stop worrying about guild level. We played this game for a loooooooong time with no ships, no extra buffs, no renown. We just played. Here in CE, we are still doing the same thing. No, we aren't a "casual guild", but heck, even I can admit to not logging in for a few days now because I needed a break.

Stop stressing man. There's no reason for it.

**Kylstrem** · 08-16-2012, 07:40 AM

Dang... this thread is still going.

I still don't see why anyone is still arguing with the OP. When someone has the viewpoint of:

"We are casual players and a casual guild and we don't want to change that, BUT we want the rewards that only can only be achieved by powergamers... but we don't want to be known as powergamers because that is a "bad word" to us."

Well, then you aren't going to change their mind... it's completely illogical.

It's the same as saying "I am a casual gamer and can only play about 1 hour a day, and I see other players leveling to 20 in 2 days. I should have some in-game mechanic that allows me to level 20 in 2 days as well... otherwise the in-game rules are inherently unfair to me... a casual gamer and the current mechanics only benefits those who "powergame".

**eris2323** · 08-16-2012, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by MeliCat

I know the system is *designed* that way. That you must compete/fight against renown decay or make this horrible horrible choice. I do not like that system. I don't think it's fair. I don't think it's fun. I think it should be changed.

This disgusts me as well.

This is the most un-fun part of this game.

**eris2323** · 08-16-2012, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Blank_Zero

Honestly, we are level 80 because of the modified guild size and the fact that when we are online, we play hard (most of us anyhow.)

As far as the math goes, 187 accounts is a high number of ACTIVE accounts. Are you sure some of them aren't active? Inactive accounts do not count for decay purposes.

Also, as others have said, please stop equating kicking a guildie to killing them. It trivializes the word and there is absolutely no comparison between the terms and their meaning.

Also also, maybe you should kick a few folks if they are unable to play due to real life issues. Maybe they would not have worry about dragging you all down while they deal with homelessness or fighting in a warzone. There is always the option of the friends' list. Just keep an eye out for them. Let them know what happened personally.

Or, you could stop worrying about guild level. We played this game for a loooooooong time with no ships, no extra buffs, no renown. We just played. Here in CE, we are still doing the same thing. No, we aren't a "casual guild", but heck, even I can admit to not logging in for a few days now because I needed a break.

Stop stressing man. There's no reason for it.

And this would be basically another 'shut up and enjoy what you have'

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