My depressing DDO Day (Renown)

[eris2323]

I didn't answer those questions because they have nothing to do with the thread.

I'm not dictating to anyone how to play their game. The game rules are set. I didn't make the rules. Who does it hurt if you want to play the game your way? No one.

But you want to change the rules for everyone, not play the game your way. Big difference.

You want things changed. I don't see the need. I barely can understand why you want things changed when you already have almost everything the guild system offers.

I do believe now, I've told you three times why I want it changed.

If you can't understand the reasons, that's fine. We're different type of players.

It'd be nice if you'd stop trying to dictate precisely how I play my game though, and stop telling me what is and is not important to me.

[eris2323]

Wait.... so he doesn't want people to get to high level guilds... but would be in favor of removing the renown decay system?

[Thrudh]

Wait.... so he doesn't want people to get to high level guilds... but would be in favor of removing the renown decay system?

I'm not against it... That's very different from "in favor of".

I personally don't really care... I think it would make the powergamers mad, and you're not taking THEIR perspective in consideration.

My personal feeling is the system is actually very well designed for both casuals and powergamers (in favor of casuals, actually).

[eris2323]

That, my friend, is worthy of those sig-quotes you are so fond.

[eris2323]

I'm not against it... That's very different from "in favor of".

I personally don't really care... I think it would make the powergamers mad, and you're not taking THEIR perspective in consideration.

My personal feeling is the system is actually very well designed for both casuals and powergamers (in favor of casuals, actually).

LOL perhaps, you could explain to me how the system favors casual players, as we have it now?

I'd LOVE to hear that.

[Thrudh]

LOL perhaps, you could explain to me how the system favors casual players, as we have it now?

I'd LOVE to hear that.

???

My guild is casual. We're stalled at 73. We have multiple players who are gone for weeks at a time.

Yet we have nearly every single ship buff that exists.

That's a sytem that favors casuals. The powergamers with guild level 91 get 1% more exp than me and a sonic resist 30 buff... That truly is about it.

When they say, "Anyone want a ship invite?", I say "No thanks".

The system favors casuals because we get 97% of the shinies, instead of the usual 80%...

[eris2323]

???

My guild is casual. We're stalled at 73. We have multiple players who are gone for weeks at a time.

Yet we have nearly every single ship buff that exists.

That's a sytem that favors casuals. The powergamers with guild level 91 get 1% more exp than me and a sonic resist 30 buff... That truly is about it.

When they say, "Anyone want a ship invite?", I say "No thanks".

The system favors casuals because we get 97% of the shinies, instead of the usual 80%...

So you are saying you are a casual player? I think not. Obviously your guild is not JUST casual players, either.

How many casuals do you actually have?

How many people in your guild? Actives and Inactives?

[Mathermune]

I didn't answer those questions because they have nothing to do with the thread.

I'm not dictating to anyone how to play their game. The game rules are set. I didn't make the rules. Who does it hurt if you want to play the game your way? No one.

But you want to change the rules for everyone, not play the game your way. Big difference.

You want things changed. I don't see the need. I barely can understand why you want things changed when you already have almost everything the guild system offers.

Hmm, alright. I get what you mean.

My response to the "dictating how to play their game" question then would be, no, I don't actually think you want to tell everyone how to run their guild. As you say that is Turbine's renown system, ergo, turbine's job.

How it comes across, for better or worse, usually worse, is that by saying the system works fine (and it does, for some) is that those who get the decay shaft, or those who want a casual guild, they see that as you inheriting that dictator mantle and making you a decay apologist. So I will cheerfully withdraw any claims I may have made about telling me how I should play.

(Telling me I have accept with loving grace Turbine's rules on renown and never voice my concerns on the forums is different, the two get mixed far too often, by everyone.)


As for the "you want to change the rules for everyone, not play the game your way."

Hrmm, I can't argue with that either. Fair point. But the difference being people will still be able to play "their way."

I think my suggestions of paying for everything with renown points and abolishing decay (amongst other things) would be a far more inclusive system and still allow the power gamers to point at their pixels, or numbers and boast how much better they are while still allowing casual guild to plod along and get there in the end.

[Thrudh]

So you are saying you are a casual player? I think not. Obviously your guild is not JUST casual players, either.

How many casuals do you actually have?

How many people in your guild? Actives and Inactives?

I don't even know the numbers... I've never cared... We're stalled at 73... What are you stalled at?

Your guild definitely has casual players and you're stalled in the 70s as well right? So large casual guilds can make it to the 70s.

I see that as a system that works for casuals then. Because if you can make it to the high 60s - low 70s (70 is pretty nice for the large guild slot), then you've achieved pretty much everything the guild system has to offer.

You can keep your casuals AND keep your shinies. I'm sorry I keep telling you not to worry about the number 77 when it offers nothing more than the number 74. If you want to worry about the number 77 and ask the devs the make sweeping code changes so casual guilds can get hit 77 or 100 or whaetever, that's fine.

But I am allowed to disagree that it's necessary for the devs to spend coding time on that.

[eris2323]

I don't even know the numbers... I've never cared... We're stalled at 73... What are you stalled at?

Your guild definitely has casual players and you're stalled in the 70s as well right? So large casual guilds can make it to the 70s.

I see that as a system that works for casuals then. Because if you can make it to the high 60s - low 70s (70 is pretty nice for the large guild slot), then you've achieved pretty much everything the guild system has to offer.

You can keep your casuals AND keep your shinies. I'm sorry I keep telling you not to worry about the number 77 when it offers nothing more than the number 74. If you want to worry about the number 77 and ask the devs the make sweeping code changes so casual guilds can get hit 77 or 100 or whaetever, that's fine.

But I am allowed to disagree that it's necessary for the devs to spend coding time on that.

Well, I guess it's a good thing you don't get to decide what the devs work on.

If you don't even know how many members are in your guild, I find it hard to believe you have the experience to even appreciate the problem in its full effect.

I mean, I know exactly how many we have. And exactly what our renown debt per person is. It's at the forefront of my mind, every day.

[Perikeles]

My guild is casual. We're stalled at 73. We have multiple players who are gone for weeks at a time.

Yet we have nearly every single ship buff that exists.

That's a sytem that favors casuals. The powergamers with guild level 91 get 1% more exp than me and a sonic resist 30 buff... That truly is about it.

When they say, "Anyone want a ship invite?", I say "No thanks".

The system favors casuals because we get 97% of the shinies, instead of the usual 80%...

So you are saying you are a casual player? I think not. Obviously your guild is not JUST casual players, either.

How many casuals do you actually have?

How many people in your guild? Actives and Inactives?

>>A): no casual guilds can't possibly reach level 73
>>B): My guild is casual, and we've reached 73
>>A): Well, no TRUE casual guild can reach level 73

What's wrong with this ? :P

[eris2323]

Who said they can't reach 73?

I was just curious as to his numbers; he's speaking an awfully lot lately, and I am not sure he even understands the problems... the numbers would help me explain it, if I need to..

To me, someone who doesn't know how many people are in their guild aren't paying attention - and possibly, maybe, just maybe, might not have even experienced the problem at all

If they were, say, not even an officer... and just a player who doesn't care about guilds...

[Perikeles]

>>A): no casual guilds can't possibly reach level x
>>B): My guild is casual, and we've reached x
>>A): Well, no TRUE casual guild can reach level x

The level doesn't matter the argument is still flawed.

[eris2323]

>>A): no casual guilds can't possibly reach level x
>>B): My guild is casual, and we've reached x
>>A): Well, no TRUE casual guild can reach level x

The level doesn't matter the argument is still flawed.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

If you think we're disagreeing about that; you're wrong. I'm well aware of the math, and well aware that every large guild has a different set of numbers... actives, and inactives. every large guilds 'renown wall' is different.

It *IS* all dependant on how many casuals you have in your guild.

If you're saying I don't believe him; well, I do... There's no reason for him to lie about that... I believe his guild level is 73, and I believe he doesn't care about renown or guilds whatsoever...

That's not a bad thing, it's just two different people with different views of the game.

I am curious as to his numbers, yes; but as I said, that was more so I could point out what he is spending so much time ignoring.... guild renown decay problems

If I'm totally wrong on what you meant.... then I apologize, but I just don't get it

[Perikeles]

You are not responding to his example that his guild has reached level 73 as a casual guild. You are claiming that his guild can not possibly be casual.

I think this is being unfair towards his point that he is quite happy where his guild is at 73 and reaping the benefits of a quite generous system. He is trying to respond and inform you how he finds the system working for casual guilds which he thinks his guild is.

[eris2323]

You are not responding to his example that his guild has reached level 73 as a casual guild. You are claiming that his guild can not possibly be casual.

I think this is being unfair towards his point that he is quite happy where his guild is at 73 and reaping the benefits of a quite generous system. He is trying to respond and inform you how he finds the system working for casual guilds which he thinks his guild is.

Really?

Where did I say that?

I asked for more numbers, so I could explain the problem.

He hasn't responded.

I don't recall telling him his guild couldn't possibly be casual.

I did say I didn't think *HE* was casual.

[eris2323]

What is your current guild level?

You're extremely passionate about this subject and I just have to wonder what guild ship buffs you're actually missing out on with your current guild level.

72. So yes, I know guilds with casual players can get to those levels.

(not that hard to figure out my guild level; if i missed the question before. You could have looked up my suggestions and saw that i posted exaclty how much renown debt was and what it would change to)


However - I KNOW you haven't been paying attention, because this isn't about buffs.

This is about every large guilds renown wall, and how I think it is bad for the game, causing an atmosphere where if we WANT to gian levels, we HAVE to kick casual players.

If you think it's about buffs, I'm going to have to ask you to start the thread again.

From the beginning.

[HungarianRhapsody]

72. So yes, I know guilds with casual players can get to those levels.

(not that hard to figure out my guild level; if i missed the question before. You could have looked up my suggestions and saw that i posted exaclty how much renown debt was and what it would change to)


However - I KNOW you haven't been paying attention, because this isn't about buffs.

This is about every large guilds renown wall, and how I think it is bad for the game, causing an atmosphere where if we WANT to gian levels, we HAVE to kick casual players.

If you think it's about buffs, I'm going to have to ask you to start the thread again.

From the beginning.

When the guild renown wall is FAR above any meaningful guild ship buff in the game, then there is really no problem.

If you WANT to gain levels, then you're only doing it for e-peen.

If you feel like you HAVE to kick casual players in order to feed your e-peen, then those were never actual friends in the first place and your first post in this thread is completely ridiculous because you claim to actually CARE about those people and you seem to believe that kicking them out of your guild is doing something bad to them.

My own guild is currently at 72 because of the build your guild event and we are slowly losing renown each day. No one has even considered kicking guild members out of the guild. We are actively recruiting good people for the guild (and we have no requirements for an amount of play each week). We wouldn't even kick members if it were the difference between staying at 70 and dropping back to 69 where Large Guild Augment items no longer work properly.

Your problem is not with guild renown decay. Your problem is with the fact that you think you should be gaining guild levels when you have no reason to do so other than your own desire for guild levels.

When your concern for the people you claim to care about exceeds your desire for more prestige that no one outside your guild cares about, then you will find no temptation to kick members from your guild.

[Perikeles]

So you are saying you are a casual player? I think not. Obviously your guild is not JUST casual players, either.

*SNIP*

Where did I say that?

'Obviously' is a quite strong word.

If that is not what you are saying please elaborate.

[eris2323]

When the guild renown wall is FAR above any meaningful guild ship buff in the game, then there is really no problem.

If you WANT to gain levels, then you're only doing it for e-peen.

If you feel like you HAVE to kick casual players in order to feed your e-peen, then those were never actual friends in the first place and your first post in this thread is completely ridiculous because you claim to actually CARE about those people and you seem to believe that kicking them out of your guild is doing something bad to them.

My own guild is currently at 72 because of the build your guild event and we are slowly losing renown each day. No one has even considered kicking guild members out of the guild. We are actively recruiting good people for the guild (and we have no requirements for an amount of play each week). We wouldn't even kick members if it were the difference between staying at 70 and dropping back to 69 where Large Guild Augment items no longer work properly.

Your problem is not with guild renown decay. Your problem is with the fact that you think you should be gaining guild levels when you have no reason to do so other than your own desire for guild levels.

When your concern for the people you claim to care about exceeds your desire for more prestige that no one outside your guild cares about, then you will find no temptation to kick members from your guild.

Well, I'm glad you think we should always be stuck forever at the same level.

Forever.

I disagree, and obviously think the system needs some tweaks.

My problem is that if I want us to gain levels, I will have to remove casual players. I do not see why this should be so, and I do not see exactly why power-gamers deserve to gain levels, and no one else does.

Yet again (yes, I've said this a few times) I think it fosters an atmosphere that persecutes casual players, and new players.

And I don't like it.