My depressing DDO Day (Renown)

[eris2323]

But thats just it. Renown isn't about 'better' or 'best'. It isn't about how long you have been around. Renown is about fame.

There are plenty of millitaries of other countries that are just as good, sometimes better than say the US Army. The difference is that the US Army is a power gamer. They are out there every day 'playing' and everyone knows them. They are famous. They are renown. The Canadian Army is easily just as good, but they dont have the fame.

Sometimes you join a military for your country, and it dosen't matter to you how famous you are. If fame does matter, then you would join a more famous army. It happens.

LOL from a military family, that whole line "If fame does matter, then you join a more famous army" made me laugh.

Um. Okay. I don't even know where to begin. SO I won't. I understand SOME peoples perception of the guild renown system. I understand some people leave their casual guilds in order to join power gamer guilds. I understand some people don't want others to have nice things, because it somehow diminishes the value of their nice things.

These things I understand.

Joining a more famous army? That just makes me laugh.

[phillymiket]

I think the encounter with 12 red names and the 50 spawns of casters around them would be more dangerous than the 12 rednames slone.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Those 12 elite power gamers, in my eyes, are NOT worth as much as 60 real players, with 12 elite power gamers supporting them daily with renown.

I didn't express my thought clearly I guess.

I was saying a single spawn of the 12 would be more worthy of respect then a a single spawn of the who-knows-what-you-get?

When a guild of all experienced gamers joins you know you get a good, geared player.

You can actually adjust your play style or go into a quest on a higher difficulty or do a tough optional because you see a few players from a extremely well regarded guilds filling the ranks of the party.

Their guilds reputation has proceeded them.
They are renowned.

A casual guild tag means you wait and see what you get.

See the difference?

Yes - it's not our case - we track all of our alts and characters with an external spreadsheet. When we remove, we remove.

I disagree. Everyone should have something to work towards. Being stuck at any level is harsh and unforgiving, and makes the game unfun to those who are stuck.

I guess I've always viewed the renown system more as a rating that you earn through work but eventually settle somewhere between 1 and 100 depending on how your guild rolls.

I guess you see it as levels you should pass through with every guild eventually and inevitably reaching the top as long as they don't disband.

36 posts since I posted suggestions.

Only 1 person actually touches the suggestions.

(MOST OF) The rest are just here for a 'pile on eris' day.

Funny as heck, it is.

I made a suggestion to you for a work around for the moment.

I offered agreement that the system should change.

You didn't touch on that but focused on where we disagreed.

It is funny as heck, human nature.

Inflammatory exchanges draw the most attention often.

Edit -

You may get more traction from your ideas if you put them in the OP.
One reads the OP and sees all the exchanges that follow and it makes you not want to read all posts of arguments in this long thread so people scan and ideas get lost

Just my 2 cents
.

[eris2323]

I didn't express my thought clearly I guess.

I was saying a single spawn of the 12 would be more worthy of respect then a a single spawn of the who-knows-what-you-get?

When a guild of all experienced gamers joins you know you get a good, geared player.

You can actually adjust your play style or go into a quest on a higher difficulty or do a tough optional because you see a few players from a extremely well regarded guilds filling the ranks of the party.

Their guilds reputation has proceeded them.
They are renowned.

A casual guild tag means you wait and see what you get.

See the difference?



I guess I've always viewed the renown system more as a rating that you earn through work but eventually settle somewhere between 1 and 100 depending on how your guild rolls.

I guess you see it as levels you should pass through with every guild eventually and inevitably reaching the top as long as they don't disband.



I made a suggestion to you for a work around for the moment.

I offered agreement that the system should change.

You didn't touch on that but focused on where we disagreed.

It is funny as heck, human nature.

Inflammatory exchanges draw the most attention often.

Edit -

You may get more traction from your ideas if you put them in the OP.
One reads the OP and sees all the exchanges that follow and it makes you not want to read all posts of arguments in this long thread so people scan and ideas get lost

Just my 2 cents
.

Nope, I don't see. If they both have 12 extremely active players, I do not see how the guild that is a powergamer guild and exclusive to those 12 people in any way deserves a bonus over the guild that hast the same 12 extremely active players, AND has 50 casual players under their banner.

You may be right about posting the suggestions in an original post, top of thread. I will probably move them over to a new post soon.

However, I wanted to test the forum population.

I wanted to see how many would jump on board and start yelling, without actually following the story.

So many did.

This is a huge problem with our forums. People don't sit down and read; they just see a post, figure someones whining, and jump in; usually to make fun of them.

Sometimes, they just figure that someone wants to share in their shinies, and they just can't have that.

Then posts get deleted, turbine gets involved, and no one is happy.

[phillymiket]

Nope, I don't see. If they both have 12 extremely active players, I do not see how the guild that is a powergamer guild and exclusive to those 12 people in any way deserves a bonus over the guild that hast the same 12 extremely active players, AND has 50 casual players under their banner.

You may be right about posting the suggestions in an original post, top of thread. I will probably move them over to a new post soon.

However, I wanted to test the forum population.

I wanted to see how many would jump on board and start yelling, without actually following the story.

So many did.

This is a huge problem with our forums. People don't sit down and read; they just see a post, figure someones whining, and jump in; usually to make fun of them.

Sometimes, they just figure that someone wants to share in their shinies, and they just can't have that.

Then posts get deleted, turbine gets involved, and no one is happy.

We're talking apples and oranges.

Honestly, I think there is a lot of apple/orange talk in this thread. :/

I was making a point about renown being tied to the average quality of the player you would get if one joined a party.

You are talking about renown as a sum total of the work done by the guild.

Different modes of thought.

Also

You talk about the forum population and people yelling.

Yet you yourself sound so angry and argumentative, at least to me.

And sorry, if you think I'm going to read this whole thread you're mistaken.

If the tone was civil and points represented fairly without hyperbole I might.

It didn't start well, though, so i scanned.

Call me lazy.
.

[eris2323]

We're talking apples and oranges.

Honestly, I think there is a lot of apple/orange talk in this thread. :/

I was making a point about renown being tied to the average quality of the player you would get if one joined a party.

You are talking about renown as a sum total of the work done by the guild.

Different modes of thought.

Also

You talk about the forum population and people yelling.

Yet you yourself sound so angry and argumentative, at least to me.

And sorry, if you think I'm going to read this whole thread you're mistaken.

If the tone was civil and points represented fairly without hyperbole I might.

It didn't start well, though, so i scanned.

Call me lazy.
.

Okay. You're lazy.

You told me to do it.

[phillymiket]

Okay. You're lazy.

You told me to do it.

I would reply but I don't feel like it.

Wait!

I just replied!

>.<

Ok. you win eris2323.

.

[eris2323]

I have made it easier on the lazier people

I like to be lazy sometimes too.

But sometimes it's helpful to see just who is going to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, instead of reading through a thread and deciding to join it

[HungarianRhapsody]

I read most of the thread, but at least some of that was skimming through the worst of the nonsense instead of paying strict attention to every line, so I may have just missed the information I'm asking for.

Eris2323, what is your current guild level?

[Thrudh]

"You can't have shiny stuff, your guild supports casuals" is a load of garbage, and obviously I do not agree this is the way it should be.

The truth is though, you CAN have shiny stuff, even with a casual guild... You get 95% of the guild ship shinies. The system is pretty fair to casual guilds... while still leaving room for the powergamers to do 3x as much work to get the last 5%.

This is fundamental DDO design... and I think it works pretty well...

I can get 80%-90% of my character's potential power without grinding 8 hours a day... As a semi-casual player, I can join any end-game raid or quest and contribute well... That is not true of most MMOs.

And the powergamers can still shoot for that last 10%-20%, which makes them happy as well.

[AZgreentea]

LOL from a military family, that whole line "If fame does matter, then you join a more famous army" made me laugh.

Um. Okay. I don't even know where to begin. SO I won't. I understand SOME peoples perception of the guild renown system. I understand some people leave their casual guilds in order to join power gamer guilds. I understand some people don't want others to have nice things, because it somehow diminishes the value of their nice things.

These things I understand.

Joining a more famous army? That just makes me laugh.

So you are saying that everyone who joins the Special Forces does so because of a sense of honor and duty, or do some of them do it because being associated with the SF means they are associated with a famous group? I know plenty of soldiers from other countries, and not all of them joined the military to become US citizens. Some have been in the country for years, and only have a work permit. They could just as easily go home and join their own countries military.

[Thrudh]

36 posts since I posted suggestions.

Only 1 person actually touches the suggestions.

(MOST OF) The rest are just here for a 'pile on eris' day.

Funny as heck, it is.

When many many people disagree with you, it might be all of them are wrong. There's plenty of precedent in history for the lone voice that speaks the truth that the masses don't agree with.

But it doesn't hurt to revisit your assumptions, and wonder if maybe the reason so many people are "piling on eris" is because YOU are mistaken, not them. Just saying maybe.

Can you not understand our arguments? You may not agree, but do you understand them? Past a certain point, there are some serious diminishing returns. You get like 4 new benefits from 71 to 100 (Most of which, if you really want them, you can buy at 74 with TP).

There is ZERO difference between guild level 75 or 76 or 77. Likewise for 81-84 and 86-92 and 94-100. It's just a number with zero shinies. You get 4% exp, 5% exp, a bigger ship (so now you can get sonic resist 30 and a mailbox) and that's about it. And you buy 5% exp shrines with TP at guild level 74, if you're dying for that.

[Beethoven]

There are plenty of millitaries of other countries that are just as good, sometimes better than say the US Army. The difference is that the US Army is a power gamer. They are out there every day 'playing' and everyone knows them. They are famous. They are renown. The Canadian Army is easily just as good, but they dont have the fame.

Actually, if we'd rank our armies by DDO's renown system the US armed forces would have a fairly low Guild Level simply because the amount of soldiers deployed in an active war zone is rather small compared to the total size of the army.

The same holds true for every other western military were usually less than 10% are in an active war zone. It'd be the equivalent of a guild were for every powergamer (who is constantly out fighting) there are nine+ players at home training and doing inventory maintenance. The highest guild levels would like be held by the militaries of Middle Eastern and African warlords were the majority of their soldiers are active in a warzone every day.

It's a misconception that Guild Level reflects anything but average activity by account. It does not reflect skill. The most skilled player spending only a couple days playing will generate less Renown than a player who plays every day for hours straight. All the skill required is to manage completing quests on normal.

It also does no reflect teamwork; in fact it'd be more effective for six people to each zerg IQ normal individually than group up (for purposes of renown). What'd also be the reason you cannot compare it with sports and trophies. We do not (nor should we) award trophies and recognition solely on how much time a player spends on the field - we award trophies for exceptional accomplishments.

So, if gaming with be an athletic discipline the guy who solo'ed ToD would be more famous than the dude who runs around hitting easy chests all day long. However, DDO's renown system works exactly the opposite and players hitting but fast and easy chests all day long would be "more famous" than the end-game raiding guild.

The whole situation under the current system could be easily summarized as:

Pro: it provides bragging rights for groups of hardcore players.
Con: it subjects casual (and to an extend new) players with the frustration of getting stuck with no chance to make further progress.

Personally, I feel hardcores deserves something that gives them bragging rights at the very least. The same time I do not think a game should not have systems were its players get stuck. Its why I would have been in favor of a higher cap and Guild Size as factor for Renown needed for the next level instead of Decay.

[Gremmlynn]

So, having a system with both casual players, and people who play daily, is just foreign to you? Having a wide, varied group? It must always be that all casual players stick together (but then, who would combat the decay) and all powergamers must stick together?

A guild with all casual players, lol, what would be the point when it's more likely than not that more than one will be logged in at any time. There really are only two types of viable guilds, mixed active/casual and all active, with the mixed being less viable due to the renown mechanics even though it tends to be a more vibrant social environment.

[Gremmlynn]

The guild lvls were designed as a perk.
I know the guild that I am in will plateau at some point. When it does, it does.
And if we lose active members, it will decline.

When you do, you likely will. Lose enough and the others will find less reason to stay, when your actives go your casuals will also find little reason to stay as there isn't a reliable population of guildies to play with when they find the time to log on. Unless a guilds core is small and very tight knit as well as willing to plateau, that stagnation can very well be the beginning of the end for the guild.

I really don't think whomever cane up with this system though it through very well.

[eris2323]

When many many people disagree with you, it might be all of them are wrong. There's plenty of precedent in history for the lone voice that speaks the truth that the masses don't agree with.

But it doesn't hurt to revisit your assumptions, and wonder if maybe the reason so many people are "piling on eris" is because YOU are mistaken, not them. Just saying maybe.

Can you not understand our arguments? You may not agree, but do you understand them? Past a certain point, there are some serious diminishing returns. You get like 4 new benefits from 71 to 100 (Most of which, if you really want them, you can buy at 74 with TP).

There is ZERO difference between guild level 75 or 76 or 77. Likewise for 81-84 and 86-92 and 94-100. It's just a number with zero shinies. You get 4% exp, 5% exp, a bigger ship (so now you can get sonic resist 30 and a mailbox) and that's about it. And you buy 5% exp shrines with TP at guild level 74, if you're dying for that.

Many people? Well, there was a few... enough to use two instances of the word many? Now you're just trying to use psychological tricks to make it seem like you're right

Also there were people that were agreeing with me.

The funny thing is it's always the same people who are totally against any renown change whatsoever...

We should examine THEIR motives.

Shall we do that?

[eris2323]

Let's start. Thrudh, precisely why are you against any form of renown decay reform?

Precisely who does it hurt if someone else wants to play their game their way?

Precisely what gives you the right to dictate how I play my game?

Precisely what gives you the right to keep repeating yourself ad nauseam?

I get it. You don't want any renown change.

Now... why?

[Mathermune]

Edited as per previous post.

As for the rest I would be genuinely interested to hear (from anyone) their views on these three please.

Precisely why are you against any form of renown decay reform?

Precisely who does it hurt if someone else wants to play their game their way?

Precisely what gives you the right to dictate how I play my game?

[HungarianRhapsody]

The funny thing is it's always the same people who are totally against any renown change whatsoever...

Most people aren't against any renown change whatsoever. We're just against ill-considered renown changes that would have obvious negative effects that would far outweigh any potential benefits that they might offer.

Make better suggestions and you'll get fewer objections.

[Thrudh]

Let's start. Thrudh, precisely why are you against any form of renown decay reform?

Precisely who does it hurt if someone else wants to play their game their way?

Precisely what gives you the right to dictate how I play my game?

Precisely what gives you the right to decide what mechanics are good, or bad?

Precisely what gives you the right to keep repeating yourself ad nauseam?

I get it. You don't want any renown change.

Now... why?

I don't see a big problem with the guild renown system. It works like many of the other DDO systems... Casuals can get most of the benefits with some effort, powergamers have to work 5x as hard to get the last 10%-20%.

Both groups win.

I think DDO has an excellent design because they use this system all the time. A ton of epic items and TRs are not necessary to play end-game quests and raids, but they give powergamers a way to grind out 4.3 million exp for a 1% gain.

Casual guilds can easily get nearly every single buff a guild ship offers... so I don't see a problem. Let the powergamers fight for bragging rights getting into the 80s,90s, and 100s.

The one point you and others have brought up that I agree with is that guild renown decay can be caught in a feedback loop. A guild that starts to decline will likely decline faster. Every active player that leaves makes it more likely more active players will leave.

I'm not 100% against changing the renown system. I'd be fine with reducing or removing renown decay all together. I just don't see a big problem with the system as it is. The system is already very front-loaded for casual guilds.

To paraphrase my Mom back when I was kid... "If your powergaming friends really want to leave your guild because you only have a 4% shrine, then they really weren't your friends to begin with".

[Thrudh]

Precisely who does it hurt if someone else wants to play their game their way?

Precisely what gives you the right to dictate how I play my game?

As for the rest I would be genuinely interested to hear (from anyone) their views on these three please.

I didn't answer those questions because they have nothing to do with the thread.

I'm not dictating to anyone how to play their game. The game rules are set. I didn't make the rules. Who does it hurt if you want to play the game your way? No one.

But you want to change the rules for everyone, not play the game your way. Big difference.

You want things changed. I don't see the need. I barely can understand why you want things changed when you already have almost everything the guild system offers.