My depressing DDO Day (Renown)

[Uska]

If you are in a small guild, I hope you enjoy it. That is not enjoyable to me.

Just like having a guild stuck at a certain level, which ALL large guilds with casual players eventually face is not enjoyable to me, even though so many forum posters think we should just shut up and accept being a lower level.

A feeling of accomplishment, of getting somewhere, of feeling good about your guild, your organization, your team? That is enjoyable to me.

I'm forever barred from what is enjoyable to me based solely on the amount of casual players.

*THAT* is the point.

While decay needs to be adjusted somewhat it makes sense that a guild with more inactive or casual players should have a harder time to level since the guild system is a reward for ACTIVE playing.

[Uska]

So in other words you can't explain why the power gamer guild with only 12 players is considered somehow more worthy than the guild that has 12 power players, but 50 casual players as well.

Gotcha

Oh... if that wasn't clear - I totally disregarded your theory about averages and efficiency.

Sorry about that...

You have to make a choice they arent more important but have a higher active percentage and should level faster and higher than a causal guild with a large amount of inactive or casual members so choose to be a leveling guild or a casual guild.

[jonqrandom]

to be totally honest, i don't think the renown system needs a huge overhaul, or extra features - dear gods, more stuff to break complexity is wonderful in nature - inside of a computer, simplicity is usually the better option

i think renown decay should be trimmed back a little, probably no more than 5%, more like 2% or 3% if i had to hazard a guess. voluntary departures and "dead" account kicks should have reduced or removed penalties, and inactives should become so faster.

your own situation actually goes to show just what a casual, mid-sized guild can achieve, without going crazy grinding out renown. far from being an example of the system failing, you're almost the opposite - you're about where you should be, you just shouldn't have to be struggling quite so hard to tread water. being even a mid-high-level guild shouldn't be easy, and you should allow yourself a little pride at what your guild has accomplished.

[Bosco]

Who of my friends should I kill?

THIS IS NOT A CHOICE I FEEL I SHOULD HAVE TO MAKE

If I were you I would just boot them from the guild. Killing your friends isn't cool bro.

[Falco_Easts]

So, today's first big DDO decision in my game...

Which of these 187 accounts of great people and good friends... should I *BANISH* for not playing enough.

Which should be deleted.

Of the One Hundred Eighty Seven. Accounts.

Who of my friends should I kill?

THIS IS NOT A CHOICE I FEEL I SHOULD HAVE TO MAKE

And - this is not even to gain levels. It's just to have a chance to break even and stay where we are. We lost our ability to gain levels the day after they implemented renown decay. Our large, casual guild just could not support itself AND grow. We've been the same level for years, and it's demoralizing.

This is my most depressing DDO Day ever. I have to kill off some of my friends, so they won't come back, and cause another 30 days debt for logging in for a day to say Hi.

I have to shove it in their faces - DDO doesn't want your type here, go away. DDO has placed a value on all players, and you do not play enough to have value to them - which is obvious from the amount of penalty we get from allowing casual players into our guilds. I guess guilds only exist for the PowerGamers, and the rest of us should go find another game.

I could be playing the game, and enjoying myself, Turbine. I could be letting the new people I meet in my current TR life have a chance at joining us, if I feel their personality matches our guild. I could be playing. I could be having fun. I could be meeting new people.

Thanks for not letting that happen.

(so sick of this renown decay garbage - make your game more friendly for casual and new players - and the guilds that support them. We're not looking for a free ride, we're looking for a fair chance.)

What a load of melodramitic rubbish. It is hard to take your issue seriously when you post like this.

What is hurting us is the people who log in once every couple of weeks... then cause 30 days decay.

No the problem is a a guild leader you are choosing that a high guild level is more important then your friends.

How many more friends will we have to lose, solely to break even?

However many YOU choose are less important then a high guild level.

Generally when you have to tell people 'you're not good enough in turbines eyes to be allowed to play with us' and remove them from the guild - they tend to get angry about it. They're quite rightly justified, in my eyes - they DID help us grow the guild to get where we are today.

Probably because they realise it has nothing to do with Turbine and everything to do with the choice of the guild leader who just booted them.

Just because YOU don't care about gaining levels, doesn't mean other people don't, or shouldn't.

Just because YOU care about gaining levels, doesn't mean other people do, or should.
IMO guilds should be about friendship, not buffs & levels.

But if you have a player who is not fully inactive, who plays one day a month, THAT is when you have to kick them.

You HAVE to do nothing.

A guild that stagnates and goes no where due to the decay caused by having casual players in your guild is not rewarding. Why would anyone want to be in a non-rewarding-guild?

Why woudl anyone want to eb in a guild that doesn't reward friendship & loyalty?

[Deathdefy]

I did something stupid yesterday, I let a player into my guild, worse is he's a dual boxer, so two accounts into the guild. Guild went from 7 to 9. A player that's been inactive for over six monthes logged on, 10 actives now. I was angry that he logged on. I share your depression.

Worry not!

Guild renown decay formula
The formula for renown decay is a level-based multiplier times an account-based multiplier (LevelMultiplier * AccountMultiplier). The account-based multiplier is the Modified Guild Size + 10.

Note: Minimum Modified Guild Size is 10! Account-based multiplier is therefore ( Max(Modified Guild Size,10) + 10 )

To translate, if your guild size is 10 or fewer accounts, you have the same renown decay as if you had 10 people anyway. The 11th (or 187th) person is when you need to worry.

[Postumus]

Actually, the main problem isn't QUITE that.

It's that the characters have to be both removed, and they can't be allowed to return as casual players.

What is hurting us is the people who log in once every couple of weeks... then cause 30 days decay.

I personally love that these people can even come say Hi.

You obviously don't love them as much as your guild levels if this is even a decision for you. I would never choose ship buffs over friends, and if you really feel kicking guildies is like "killing your friends" neither would you.

[Postumus]

No I don't. Either you keep non-contributing players in the the guild, or you remove then and your guild level goes up. You don't get to have both, that's the point of renown. It rewards focused, active guilds. I think that's the way it should work.

I took a break from the game for over a year a while back. I understood that meant that I was a burden on the guild and that my guildies would have been perfectly justified in booting me. I would not have taken it personally.

An inactive account is not a burden to anyone. It does not count for guild decay.

[phillymiket]

If i were you, well honestly, if I were you I wouldn't worry about the guild level.
But that's another thing.

If I were you and needed, for some reason (pressure from the most active players in guild?) felt the need to remove players because of renown I'd do it like this:

I'd change the MotD to say something like, "In an effort to combat guild decay we will need to remove inactive players. We are adding a guild chat channel for players who can't play atm but like to say hi <list channel> please add this channel to incoming guild chat window"

I'd send a mail to inactive friends explaining the problem and asking them to drop guild on friendly terms and join the channel to stay in touch.

That way there is the appearance of immediate progress for those that are antsy about decay.

Also inactive accounts will drop (if they really are friends i would think) but on their terms without the shock of logging in to see you are booted.

Send all droppers an invite for when they become active again so they won't need to find an officer.

People who are inactive but not as known by you or others can be dropped with a letter explaining and a invitation to find an officer to be re-recruited when they are active again.
.

[Postumus]

So in other words you can't explain why the power gamer guild with only 12 players is considered somehow more worthy than the guild that has 12 power players, but 50 casual players as well.

Gotcha

Oh... if that wasn't clear - I totally disregarded your theory about averages and efficiency.

Sorry about that...

He does not need to explain or justify Turbine's guild decay mechanics. They are what the are. You do not like them. So you can keep whining about how unfair you think it is, or you can deal with it and make your choice: large casual guild that will never get above a certain level, or smaller active guild that can generate renown.

It is an easy choice when ship buffs and guild level is all fluff anyway.

[phillymiket]

So in other words you can't explain why the power gamer guild with only 12 players is considered somehow more worthy than the guild that has 12 power players, but 50 casual players as well.

Gotcha

Oh... if that wasn't clear - I totally disregarded your theory about averages and efficiency.

Sorry about that...

Well to tell the truth, which would you have more respect for, a spawn point that spawned one of twelve tough purple named mobs or a spawn point that you got either 1 of the 12 purple named or also maybe 1 of 50 random mobs ranging from WW kobolds to who knows what?

See my point?

On the one hand you know you are getting something bada$$ on the other you may get something tough but chances are you get something a bit weak or maybe even gimp.

It means the overall average of the players in a smaller focused guild is more advanced and, from the mobs point of view, more deadly and deserving of renown.

So, I disagree that a large casual guild is more as worthy of renown as a small group of power gamers.

But, I still think the renown system is no good because of the strife.

Guilds should be about fellowship.

If the system of some game I'm playing pits player against player with hard feelings involved then I better get a nice pay check and some sneakers named after me or I'm not happy about it.
.

[phillymiket]

I know its bad form to have 3 out of the last 4 posts but anyway.

Side thought:

I've always wondered how much guild leaders of big guilds shoot themselves in the foot with trying to prune the branches to advance.

Some people have many alts.

They may join up a character and run it for a while then not play that one for a long time.

It's not hurting the guild because if it's all one account and they are generating renown on an alt just like a player with one toon he/she plays everyday.

Maybe that alt gets dropped because they forgot to log that one in to avoid the appearance of an inactive account.

The guild loses renown in that case for no reason except a little forgetfulness on the players part and due to the fact that the guild is so big no one could possibly know who all the characters belong to.

I think part of the problem with the big casual guild is that, I'm guessing, the leaders rarely know the majority of the players in their own guild much less all of the alts.

(doesn't sound like thats your case though OP)

Seems like they can either cut way back and take a hit for a while and be re-born as a smaller guild with most every player known to the leader and a small, trusted group of officers recruiting with care or just accept that you are one of those guilds stuck in the 60s-70s (which really isn't that bad at all)
.

[eris2323]

Another day, another batch of 'be happy with what you have, and shut up'

What a pleasant bunch of people.

If you don't like my writing style, feel free to stop insulting me, and stay out of the thread.

If you didn't read the whole thread, and feel it's my sole decision... well you need to read the whole thread.

Thank you for the bumps though. Even you forum people who don't pay attention do help to bring the post back to the top!

"You can't have shiny stuff, your guild supports casuals" is a load of garbage, and obviously I do not agree this is the way it should be.

[eris2323]

Well to tell the truth, which would you have more respect for, a spawn point that spawned one of twelve tough purple named mobs or a spawn point that you got either 1 of the 12 purple named or also maybe 1 of 50 random mobs ranging from WW kobolds to who knows what?

See my point?

On the one hand you know you are getting something bada$$ on the other you may get something tough but chances are you get something a bit weak or maybe even gimp.

It means the overall average of the players in a smaller focused guild is more advanced and, from the mobs point of view, more deadly and deserving of renown.

So, I disagree that a large casual guild is more as worthy of renown as a small group of power gamers.

But, I still think the renown system is no good because of the strife.

Guilds should be about fellowship.

If the system of some game I'm playing pits player against player with hard feelings involved then I better get a nice pay check and some sneakers named after me or I'm not happy about it.
.

I think the encounter with 12 red names and the 50 spawns of casters around them would be more dangerous than the 12 rednames slone.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Those 12 elite power gamers, in my eyes, are NOT worth as much as 60 real players, with 12 elite power gamers supporting them daily with renown.

[eris2323]

I know its bad form to have 3 out of the last 4 posts but anyway.

Side thought:

I've always wondered how much guild leaders of big guilds shoot themselves in the foot with trying to prune the branches to advance.

Some people have many alts.

They may join up a character and run it for a while then not play that one for a long time.

It's not hurting the guild because if it's all one account and they are generating renown on an alt just like a player with one toon he/she plays everyday.

Maybe that alt gets dropped because they forgot to log that one in to avoid the appearance of an inactive account.

The guild loses renown in that case for no reason except a little forgetfulness on the players part and due to the fact that the guild is so big no one could possibly know who all the characters belong to.

I think part of the problem with the big casual guild is that, I'm guessing, the leaders rarely know the majority of the players in their own guild much less all of the alts.

(doesn't sound like thats your case though OP)

Seems like they can either cut way back and take a hit for a while and be re-born as a smaller guild with most every player known to the leader and a small, trusted group of officers recruiting with care or just accept that you are one of those guilds stuck in the 60s-70s (which really isn't that bad at all)
.

Yes - it's not our case - we track all of our alts and characters with an external spreadsheet. When we remove, we remove.

I disagree. Everyone should have something to work towards. Being stuck at any level is harsh and unforgiving, and makes the game unfun to those who are stuck.

[eris2323]

He does not need to explain or justify Turbine's guild decay mechanics. They are what the are. You do not like them. So you can keep whining about how unfair you think it is, or you can deal with it and make your choice: large casual guild that will never get above a certain level, or smaller active guild that can generate renown.

It is an easy choice when ship buffs and guild level is all fluff anyway.

Actually, I can suggest changes as well - and hope that somewhere, some dev reads this, and sees the position that we're in - and many other large guilds that accept casual players.

Most players are only here to look after numero uno. Most posters have their own agenda.

I post here in the hopes that the devs see it... and have to deal with the side-effects of the forum posters who for some reason get ANGRY with me for choosing my own writing style.

Here's a thought. MYOB.

Read it, or don't. The suggestions are for the devs - if the players help me fine tune them, great. If they continue to complain about my post, make fun of me, or tell me I should be happy with what I have, and stop whining - I'm just going to ignore it.

[eris2323]

36 posts since I posted suggestions.

Only 1 person actually touches the suggestions.

(MOST OF) The rest are just here for a 'pile on eris' day.

Funny as heck, it is.

[TrinityTurtle]

Eris, this thread got really long, and I admit I only read the first page, so forgive me if it has been covered, but has anyone mentioned that there is a partial solution available? Private social channels. It's most obvious issue si that it does not give those that rarely come on access to the buffs true, but it does give them access to the social network. You can create a guild private channel for everyone to join and it would be rather like the old guild system, no renown issues, no stress on anyone, just a social channel to say hello and find groups in.

Everyone who says people shouldn't choose freinds over buffs, and I applaud the sentiment, however, I also respect my friends by either earning at least my keep or just keeping in touch other ways. Respect and freindship are two way streets. And leeching off other people to have access to buffs is no nobler than not kicking people so a guild can earn buffs.

I took the time to figure out how much it costs my guild for me to exist in it daily. Right now that is 600 decay daily for our guild level and size(midsize with 25 actives and level 65), and make sure I earn at least 3 times that much either daily or in a huge burst if I can't play as often. It's respect for my guild to do so.

It all comes down to your definition of respect I guess. To me, it's not respectful or being a good freind to drag down the efforts of my freinds. It's not about choosing buffs over freinds. You can still be freinds with people, and give them access through grouping to the buffs you earn and benefit them too even if they're not in the guild. Just talk to them directly and honestly and stress that you value the social connection while having to deal with teh effort/reward system Turbine put in place. If they're really your friends, it will be enough that you took the time to maintain an old style guild to keep in contact and value that connection, especially the ones that just log . If they're just there for the buffs, then they can figure out what they need to do to actually help earn them.

[eris2323]

Eris, this thread got really long, and I admit I only read the first page, so forgive me if it has been covered, but has anyone mentioned that there is a partial solution available? Private social channels. It's most obvious issue si that it does not give those that rarely come on access to the buffs true, but it does give them access to the social network. You can create a guild private channel for everyone to join and it would be rather like the old guild system, no renown issues, no stress on anyone, just a social channel to say hello and find groups in.

Everyone who says people shouldn't choose freinds over buffs, and I applaud the sentiment, however, I also respect my friends by either earning at least my keep or just keeping in touch other ways. Respect and freindship are two way streets. And leeching off other people to have access to buffs is no nobler than not kicking people so a guild can earn buffs.

I took the time to figure out how much it costs my guild for me to exist in it daily. Right now that is 600 decay daily for our guild level and size(midsize with 25 actives and level 65), and make sure I earn at least 3 times that much either daily or in a huge burst if I can't play as often. It's respect for my guild to do so.

It all comes down to your definition of respect I guess. To me, it's not respectful or being a good freind to drag down the efforts of my freinds. It's not about choosing buffs over freinds. You can still be freinds with people, and give them access through grouping to the buffs you earn and benefit them too even if they're not in the guild. Just talk to them directly and honestly and stress that you value the social connection while having to deal with teh effort/reward system Turbine put in place. If they're really your friends, it will be enough that you took the time to maintain an old style guild to keep in contact and value that connection, especially the ones that just log . If they're just there for the buffs, then they can figure out what they need to do to actually help earn them.

You only read the first page?

Well I only read the first sentence of this post
'
It's been suggested. I don't like it. It's not a solution.

[AZgreentea]

Okay, here's the thing. You have friends, you build a guild. Some of them aren't as active any more, and yet you have more friends that are.

Some of them play for a year, and never gain a level. This starts to bother them... they wonder 'hey, why we can't gain levels'. We explain it to them. They realize that they have to be in a 6-12 person 'power' guild if they want to get to 100.

They leave the guild. They take 14 days renown debt with them. They take a percentage of everything when they leave.

They WILL leave. They want to gain levels.

A large guild with any casual members WILL hit a wall where they can advance no more.

Put those two together, and you've got a very bad environment for any large, social guild.

I'd still like to know. What makes Guild A) with 12 powergamers who play daily better than Guild B) With 12 active members that play daily, the same amount as the powergamers, and 60 casual players that play weekly.

Why should the 12 person guild be able to hit 100, and the casual guild with a few daily players forever be stuck at a low level?

I don't see the justification. Why is PowerGamer Guild any better? They don't have any MORE players than guild B) - they're just elitist, and run a closed guild, and won't accept any more players because of the math.

So that entitles them to be able to advance forever?

I think the whole idea is backwards.

I think if I have active players in the guild - I should be allowed to have some casual players as well. The active players should 'cover the costs' of some of our casual players. Perhaps 1 active player would mean I could have 3 casual players being taken out of the guild renown decay formula.

Right now - the daily active players have been playing for years - and stuck at the same level forever. Should they not be rewarded for their dedication?

But thats just it. Renown isn't about 'better' or 'best'. It isn't about how long you have been around. Renown is about fame.

There are plenty of millitaries of other countries that are just as good, sometimes better than say the US Army. The difference is that the US Army is a power gamer. They are out there every day 'playing' and everyone knows them. They are famous. They are renown. The Canadian Army is easily just as good, but they dont have the fame.

Sometimes you join a military for your country, and it dosen't matter to you how famous you are. If fame does matter, then you would join a more famous army. It happens.

Basing the level of a guild on something besides how much you play, is changing the system. It would no longer be a 'renown' system.