Dwarf Paladin 14/Fighter 4/Monk2, US6 - Dwarven Sentinel

[emptysands]

Dwarf Paladin 14/Fighter 4/Monk2, US6 - Dwarven Sentinel

This is a concept build at the moment. Started off as an idea mixing Paladin with Dwarven Defender (racial PrE), but since this was pushed back I've reworked it for "just" U14.

I've still got a few holes to work out - particularly the dps numbers in tank mode and a dps gear/ED mode.

Borrowed lot of ED details from the Feithlin's Immortal build, and the double strike ideas firmed up in my head by looked at Wowo's Swashbuckler build.

I'd be keen for some comments.

Dwarf 36pt - Paladin/Barb PL

44 Str 14 +3tome +2ship +6item +1enh. +1excp +2insight +4stance +3prof +2yugo +6lvl
32 Dex 16 +3tome +2ship +8item +1excp +2yugo
34 Con 15 +3tome +2ship +7item +1excp +2insight +4stance
14 Int 10 +3tome +2ship -1brawn
20 Wis 8 +3tome +2ship +6item -1brawn
30 Cha 15 +3tome +2ship +7item +2enh. +1excp +2yugo

SLOT: +1STR, +1DEX, +1CHA

Human Option - Extra Heal Amp, Skill Points and Feat. 16/14/15/10/8/16
CHA 16 +3tome +2ship +7item +3enh. +1excp +2yugo =34 +2insight = 36

YUGO:
+2 CHA: -4 Fortitude save
+2 STR: -4 Will save
+2 CON: +20HP, -5% melee speed
+2 DEX: +6 sneak to hit, -2 to hit

Feats: 7 base, 3 fighter, 2 monk, 2 epic

Defensive (7): Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, PL: Barb
Offensive (5): PA, IC:Slash, THF, ITHF, GTHF
Other (2): SF: Intimidate, Stunning Blow

Notes:

• THF/ITHF/GTHF is better than Cleave/GC/OC
• Switch Stunning Blow, Spring Attack or SF: Intimidate for Cleave - in order to get LD abilities?
• eToughness - Not possible: requires Toughness/CON21 and not with PL: Barb
• Improved Sunder - No room.
• Improved Shield Bash - broken at the moment.

Enhancements:
Dwarf - 19AP and maybe 21AP

• Dwarven Axe Damage II (6AP): +2 OH axe dmg, +4 greataxe
• Dwarven Spell Defense III (6AP): +5 (total) saves vs spells
• Improved Intimidate IV (4AP): +4 Intimidate
• Racial Toughness II (3AP): +20HP
• ?? Racial Toughness IV (+7AP): +20HP - better to get CON II (10AP) for +25 HP/+1fort?
• ?? Dwarven Tactics II (6AP): +2 tactics
• ?? Dwarven Shield Mastery III (6AP): +DR/3 for shields - expensive
• ?? Dwarven Armor Mastery I (2AP) - +1MDB - depends on MDB/Dodge

Other - 7AP + maybe 5AP

• Way of the Tenacious Badger I (1AP): +1 intimidate (uncentered?)
• Fighter Strength I (2AP)
• Fighter Toughness II (3AP) - +20HP
• Fighter Haste Boost I (1AP) - +15% dps speed for 20 sec
• ?? Fighter Armor Mastery I (2AP): Potential, depends on dodge numbers
• ?? Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II (3AP): +2 stunning blow

Paladin DOS - 16AP

• Paladin Defender of Siberys II (6AP)
• Paladin Divine Righteousness I: (1AP) +threat
• Paladin Bulwark of Good II (3AP)
• Paladin Resistance of Good II (3AP)
• Paladin Armor Class Boost I (1AP): +2 AC for 20sec
• Paladin Courage of Good I (1AP): +2 saves/fear
• Paladin Focus of Good I (1AP): +3 Concentration

Other Paladin - 15AP

• Paladin Bulwark of Good III: (+3AP) +3 AC - IV is at lvl15
• Paladin Resistance of Good III: (+3AP) +3 saves
• Paladin Charisma II (6AP): Expensive
• Paladin Divine Might II: (3AP) +4 dmg
• Extra LOH! Smites! - TODO

Total: 57AP + ?? 26AP ?? + LOH/Smites

• Paladin Divine Sacrifice I (1AP) <= Paladin Extra Smite Evil II (3AP) = 4AP
• Paladin Divine Sacrifice II (3AP) <= Paladin Extra Smite Evil III (6AP) = 9AP
• Paladin Divine Sacrifice III (6AP) <= Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV (10AP) = 16AP
• Paladin Exalted Smite I (1AP) <= Paladin Extra Smite Evil II (3AP) = 4AP
• ...
• Paladin Extra Lay on Hands - 1AP/2AP/3AP

Probably go with Divine Sacrifice I and Paladin Exalted Smite I and ELOH+2 for 8AP.

Monk
Stances: Fire (heal amp), Earth (5% AC, 3PPR, 25% threat), Air (2.5% doublestrike)


Saves

For Ref Wil
09  04  04  Paladin@14
04  01  01  Fighter@4
03  03  03  Monk@2
02  02  02  Epic levels
02  02  02  DOS II Stance
12  11  05  Abilities - CON@34, DEX@32, WIS@20
05  05  05  Resistance item (cloak)
04  04  04  GH
    01      Haste
02  02  02  Luck 
10  10  10  CHA@30
01  01  01  Aura
03  03  03  Paladin Resistance of Good III
=
57  49  42  
-
04  00  04  Yugo
=
53  49  38
    06      Lithe (SD 2)
    06      Unearthly reactions (Mag 1): +6 Ref, +3% Dodge
01  01  01  US5 (Inate)
02  02  02  Brace for Impact (US1): +2 saves, +40% Fort
-----------
56  64  41
05  05  05  Dwarf vs spells
=
61  69  46 
04  04  04  Sup. parrying (insight) - need to find slot
01  01  01  DOS3 or DS3

HP
010 Barb PL
020 Base
010 Draconic
140 Paladin@14
040 Fighter@4
016 Monk@2
050 Epic
300 CON@34
020 Past Life: Berserker's Fury
030 GFL
025 Toughness Item
045 GS
020 Racial Toughness (can go higher if AP)
020 Class Toughness
=746
050 US1
050 US3
020 Yugo
025 Yugo CON
=891
+15% DOSII (+20% for DSIII and +2 CON => 916 + 20% = 1099)
=1025



Dodge
4% Ring of Dun'Robar
3% Bracers of Wind
1% Bracers of Wind
3% Dodge
2% Mobility
2% Spring Attack
3% Unearthly Reaction (Mag 1)
=
18%
Other
3% Perfect Balance (GMOF 1)
3% Epic Grim's Bracelet
2% Head of Good Fortune (upgraded)

MDB:
14 Hide of the Goristro
02 Mobility
06 Lithe (SD 2)
=
22

Double-strike:
10% Zeal
06% Alchemical Air Tier 2
08% Improved Shield Mastery (feat)
07% Legendary shield mastery (US2)
05% Inspire Recklessness (bard - seems it does stack with ISM)
03% Epic Spare Hand Tier 3
03% GMoF2: Hail of Blows (may work if uncentered)
=
45%
Other
05% Cannith Combat Infusion

Threat
100% Base
50% DOS II (untyped?)
50% DOS II w/ shield (Sacred)
10% Brawn
15% Stalwart Necklace/Set
100% Divine Righteous (Competence)
=
325% w/o Intimidate

Note to self: Need to check Threat bonus types. Divine Righteous is supposedly Competence [2], but may actually be Sacred [1]. If DoSII 50% Sacred and DR 100% Sacred - do the differing amounts stack?


PPR - 0.65*(1–(0.99^PRR))
13 Half BAB (19+3)/2 + 2
15 SD II
15 Defensive stance
20 iCE (LD2 twist)
15 Legendary SM
10 Heed no pain
20 Unbreakable stance
15 Large Shield/ISM
=
123 (~46.12%)

AC
10 Base
03 SD III
14 Hide of the Goristro
03 DOS2 Armour Bonus (20%)
13 Large Alchemical
03 DOS2 Shield Bonus (20%)
11 Dex@32
03 Natural (ship)
03 Natural (armor)
05 Natural (spell/item)
05 Natural (sacred) US1/Unbreakable
05 Deflection/Protection
04 Insight/Heightened Awareness 4
06 Lithe
03 Sigil of warding
02 Alchemical
01 Haste
01 Aura of Good
03 Paladin Bulwark of Good III
=98 Total
08 Shield prowess (US1)
10 Hardened
=116
12 CE
=128
03 DOS/DS3 Armour Bonus
02 DOS/DS3 Shield Bonus
03 Shield Prowess
00 CE
=136

116 Base
027 Embrace of the Spider Queen
011 DOS/DS3 Armour Bonus
-17 Hide of the Goristro
-05 Base MDB+ Fighter Armor Mastery I (2AP)+03 Dwarven Armor Mastery III (12AP)
=132
13 CE
=145

128AC vs 136AC vs 146AC against 100/150/200 to hit

43.2%/40.6%/37.8%
62.7%/59.0%/55.0%
82.2%/77.4%/72.1%


Monster's to-hit vs Player: (AB + 10.5)/ AC / 2
Player's to-hit vs Monster: (AB + 10.5)/ AC / 2 + 25% nearest 5%

Intimidate:

23 Heroic
05 Epic
05 Unyielding Sentinel V
20 Epic Brawn's Spirits
05 Epic Gloves of the Claw
06 GS Air II
04 Greater Heroism
02 Good Luck
04 Improved Intimidate
10 CHA@30
02 Coin Lord Finishing School
01 Epic Spider Mask
02 Past Life: Berserker's Fury
03 Skill Focus: Intimidate
01 Badger I
=93
04 Large guild slot shield
06 Draconic Incarnation (Tier 1 twist of fate)
=103

Other
02 Inspire competence (untyped)
02 Monk (Fire - Light - Fire) (untyped 60sec)
02 Bullheaded
06 Stalwart Defender III


UMD
11 Base
10 CHA@30
06 GS
04 GH
02 Luck
03 Item
01 Spider Mask
=
37


Unyielding Sentinel
Required
4 Brace for Impact +40% Fort, +2 saves
3 Shield Prowess +50% shield AC
3 Legendary Shield Mastery +15 PPR with Shield
3 Hardened +10AC
2 Intolerant blow (aoe taunt)
=15
3 Block energy - block 30% energy damage
3 Endless lay on hands - +3 LOH/+20%regen
2 Light the dark - AOE heal for LOH
1 Endless smiting - +1 smites/10% reneg
=11

24 Total

Other:
2 Undying Vanguard Epic Moment
2 Anoint weapon - Stand Against the Tide gives Holy
2 Purify weapon - Stand Against the Tide gives Pure Good (DR breaking)
2 Healing hands - 25 Positive Power (optional)

Equipment:
Head: Epic Helm of Frost - CHA+7, Greater Cold Resist, YELLOW (GFL?)
Necklace: Stalwart Necklace - CON+6, +2 Boosts, +2 AC, Incite +15%
or Epic Golden Guile - Ghostly, Dip+20, Bluff+20, Improved Deception, CHASk+1, YELLOW
or Epic Grim's Bracelet - Strength +7, Dodge 3%, GREEN
Goggles: GS Air III +6 CHA Skills, Wiz VI, +150 SP? Or HP
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw - STR+6, +5 Intimidate, 30% Heal Amp
Cloak: Epic Envenomed Cloak - CON+7, +5 Resistances, Greater Poison Guard, GREEN
Boots: Epic Boots of Corrosion, Greater Acid Resist, Disintegration Guard, GREEN, COLOURLESS
Trinket: Epic Brawn's Spirit - +20 Intim, +2CON, Incite +10%, WIS/INT -1, GREEN (Slot +2 Luck)
Bracers: Bracers of Wind - Dodge 3% Craft: Dodge 1%, Blurry, Air Guard
Belt: GS Min. II (+45 HP, Heavy Fort) or Epic Spare Hand w/Heavy Fort
Armour: Hide of the Goristro - AC14, MDB:14, DEX+8, Toughness,Rough Hide (+3AC), Alacrity 10%, Vertigo +10
Ring1: Cinder's Band - STR+6, +1CON, +20% Heal Amp
or
Tier 3 Epic Ring of the Stalker - ESneak +3, Seeker +6, Manslayer, Ghostly,COLOURLESS, YELLOW (Slot +1 CON, +6STR?)
Ring2: Seal of House Dun'Robar - Dodge 4%, +2STR, +5 Combat mastery

Set Bonus: Abishai +3 STR, +3 Profane NA
TO SLOT: WIS (for casting), INT (for SF pots), GFL, Heavy Fort? +1 DEX, +1 CHA

Weapons:
eSOS,
Oathblade - Longsword: 2[1d10]+6, 15-20/x2 (Keen), Superior Parrying, Absolute Law, Vorpal, Maiming, Bleed
2[W] Crafted Metal Dwarven Axes with Holy Greater Banes, etc.
Shields:
Large Alchemical Air/Air/Air - AC13, DR12, Stunning +10, Heightened Awareness 4, 6% Doublestrike, Alchemical Dexterity +2, Lightning Strike, Electric Storm (main)
Vengeful Protector - AC10, DR11, 10% Heal Amp, Incite +10% (heal amp mode)
Epic Kundarak Warding Shield - AC14, DR13, +6 Resists, SR25, BLUE, VIOLET(+7)
+5 Heavy Celestial Shield - AC14, DR12, Craft what?
+5 Deathblock Large Shield of Incite +20% Large Guild Slot


Other:
Epic Bracers of the Claw : +2CON, Heavy Fort, +4 damage
Purple Dragon helm - +CON7, +2STR, +15 Intimidate
Symbol of the Shining Sun - Necklace: Wisdom +7, Insightful Charisma +2, Concentration +15, Amaunator's Blessing Set Bonus
Signet of the Shining Sun - Ring: Charisma +7, Insightful Wisdom +2, Superior Healing Lore, Amaunator's Blessing Set Bonus [ML:20]
Epic Ring of the Silver Concord - CHA+7, Protection +6, Command, YELLOW
Epic Cloak of the Silver Concord - CHA+7, Haggle +15, Diplomacy +15, Persuasion, YELLOW
Cormyrian Red Dragonscale Armors - AC?, MDB?, Toughness, Superior Fire Resistance, Fire Absorption 20%, Protection +6, Heavy Fortification, Seeker +10

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=387965

Cloak: Shetlering +9 PPR, Protection +7, ExCombat Mastery +6, Incite +20%




Links:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=385330 - Fighter The Immortal -- U14 Light tank
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=387351 - Rogue Wowo's Swashbuckler
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...03#post4249203 - Racial PrE changes
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...06#post4634406 - Enhancement changes delayed
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...62#post4622962 - Hitpoints versus PRR: Which helps your character more?
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=308252 - Paladin Latest gear projections for AC tank
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=33 - US/Intolerant Blow bugged at the moment?

Threat Links
[1] http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...5&postcount=14
[2] http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhan...ighteousness_I

Edits: 20120823 Fixed error with PRR and Doublestrike. 20120827 Added link, hogf and crafted shield option. 20120905 Note about threat.

[emptysands]

Alternatives.


42 Str 14 +3tome +2ship +7item +1enh. +4stance +3prof +2yugo +6lvl
34 Dex 16 +3tome +2ship +7item +1excp +3insight +2yugo
34 Con 15 +3tome +2ship +7item +1excp +2insight +4stance
14 Int 10 +3tome +2ship -1brawn
20 Wis 8 +3tome +2ship +6item -1brawn
30 Cha 15 +3tome +2ship +7item +2enh. +1excp +2yugo

SLOT: +1CON, +1DEX, +1CHA


For Ref Wil
56 64 41 Base
00 01 00 DEX@34
05 05 05 Dwarf vs spells
=
61 70 46
04 04 04 Sup. parrying (insight - bracers)
=
65 74 50

HP
891 Base
-45 GS
=850
+15%
=978

Dodge
4% Ring of Dun'Robar
3% Grim's
3% Dodge
2% Mobility
2% Spring Attack
3% Unearthly Reaction (Mag 1)
=
17%
Other
3% Bracers of Wind
1% Bracers of Wind (crafted)
3% Perfect Balance (GMOF 1)
2% Head of Good Fortune (upgraded)

Double-strike:
10% Zeal
06% Alchemical Air Tier 2
08% Improved Shield Mastery (feat)
07% Legendary shield mastery (US2)
03% Epic Spare Hand Tier 3
=
34%
Other
05% Cannith Combat Infusion
05% Inspire Recklessness (bard - doesn't stack with ISM)

Threat
100% Base
50% DOS II
50% DOS II w/ shield
10% Brawn
100% Divine Righteous (Competence)
=
310% w/o Intimidate




Equipment:
Head: Epic Helm of Frost - CHA+7, Greater Cold Resist, YELLOW (Slot +1CHA)
Necklace: Epic Grim's Bracelet - Strength +7, Dodge 3%, GREEN
Goggles: GS Air III +6 CHA Skills, Wiz VI, +150 SP
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw - STR+6, +5 Intimidate, 30% Heal Amp
Cloak: Epic Envenomed Cloak - CON+7, +5 Resistances, Greater Poison Guard, GREEN
Boots: Epic Boots of Corrosion, Greater Acid Resist, Disintegration Guard, GREEN, COLOURLESS
Trinket: Epic Brawn's Spirit - +20 Intim, +2CON, Incite +10%, WIS/INT -1, GREEN (Slot +2 Luck)
Bracers: Heal Amp 20% of Superior Parrying
Belt: Epic Spare Hand - Riposte, Combat Mastery +5, Doublestrike 3%, COLORLESS, BLUE (Slot +1DEX, Heavy Fort)
Armour: Hide of the Goristro - AC14, MDB:14, +3DEX, Toughness,Rough Hide (+3AC), Alacrity 10%, Vertigo +10
Ring1: Tier 3 Epic Ring of the Stalker - ESneak +3, Seeker +6, Manslayer, Ghostly,COLOURLESS, YELLOW (Slot +1CON, GFL)
Ring2: Seal of House Dun'Robar - Dodge 4%, +7DEX, Stunning +10

Set Bonus: Abishai +3 STR, +3 Profane NA
TO SLOT: WIS (for casting), INT (for SF pots)

Weapons:
Shields:
Large Alchemical Fire/Air/Air - AC13, DR12, Seeker+10, 6% Doublestrike, Alchemical Dexterity +2, Lightning Strike, Electric Storm (main)

DPS Mode:
Switch:
Epic Bracers of the Claw : +2CON, Heavy Fort, +4 damage
eSOS

[emptysands]

See: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=59

Heavy armour build: 150 AC, 4% Dodge, 150 PRR (50.61% reduction). NOTE: Need to adjust these figures for this build with Heavy Armour.
Light armour build: 128 AC, 17% Dodge, 123 PRR (46.12% reduction).

So against 100, 150, 200 tohit we have 67.5%, 52.8%, and 38% miss chance against 170AC and 55%, 34.8% and 14% against 128AC.

Assuming 170 dmg per swing and 1000 swings, that means:

• 368, 535 and 702 hits after AC - 353, 514, 674 hits after dodge - 29639, 43157 and 56591 dmg after PRR
• 449, 652 and 856 hits after AC - 373, 541, 710 hits after dodge - 34165, 49553 and 65033 dmg after PRR

[ShadowFlash]

Yikes!...not even going to touch it...obviously our two different builds are meant for entirely different types of players. I now understand most of your comments on mine. I prefer not to list all the bells and whistles in my builds, and focus on core strengths. Part of it is I'm just to **** lazy to post optimum gear and twists for the forums. Another part is, I think it mis-represents builds to a large number of people who simply don't have access to optimum gear or running mates.

Nice build, but far out of my reach. I would like to see a base un-geared layout for comparison, as so much of your math is gear, pot, external buff, bard, etc, and twist dependant. I approach things more from a self-sufficient point of view and never count in external or temporary buffs unless garunteed. No offense intended...just a different mind-set

ShadowFlash

Edit: WoWo's swashbuckler build inspired me to do a lot of theory builds as well...I got a pure level 20 Pally Mornh Hammer & Shield build working ATM as well

[emptysands]

Yikes!...not even going to touch it...obviously our two different builds are meant for entirely different types of players. I now understand most of your comments on mine. I prefer not to list all the bells and whistles in my builds, and focus on core strengths. Part of it is I'm just to **** lazy to post optimum gear and twists for the forums. Another part is, I think it mis-represents builds to a large number of people who simply don't have access to optimum gear or running mates.

Nice build, but far out of my reach. I would like to see a base un-geared layout for comparison, as so much of your math is gear, pot, external buff, bard, etc, and twist dependant. I approach things more from a self-sufficient point of view and never count in external or temporary buffs unless garunteed. No offense intended...just a different mind-set

ShadowFlash

Edit: WoWo's swashbuckler build inspired me to do a lot of theory builds as well...I got a pure level 20 Pally Mornh Hammer & Shield build working ATM as well

Gearwise, it's actually not as hard as you might think now. There are a few pressure points, but I would say that the dodge gear is this most important.

You could drop the eChrono set, but that is not hard to farm anymore. Brawn's Spirit is pretty important if you want to Intimitank, and again the house p gear is not too hard to farm for either.

The Hide of the Goristro may seem tricky to get, but if you are 25 then you have probably run Trial by Fury a few times at least - it's pretty easy in EN, and chances you'll have dropped a couple Hides.

More tricky is probably the alchemical shield - regular LOB/MA runs require a decent group. It's not a vital gear option. Likely if you don;t have a regular group that runs LOB, then you don't have the real need to increase your threat dps via additional double strike.

Full set of +3 times maybe harder, but there will be more as people run epic content more. May even drop to 1 LDS, depends on the drop rates.

The main drivers of this build were the desire to build a Paladin tank that could take the Fighter tank PrE. It's a bit far away at the moment, until they finish the enhancement update. However I realised that the build worked well even in the current system. The main factor is Zeal - 10% double strike. Effectively allows you to have the "fighter capstone" and evasion. 4 Fighter is needed in order to get the feats required vs 2 more level of Paladin.

Luckily all the twists seem to be tier 2 and tier 1. So for a twist tier 2/1/1 = 3+2+2 = 7 FP required. 7 Fate Points is about 720k * 7 = 5 million XP. Not too hard, and very possible if you just focus on this one toon. In fact if you TR after hitting 25 once and hit 25 again you'll have enough epic XP - 6 million - to get 7 FPs plus most of US.

[Fafnir]

Hey Varz. The build is looking good and the layout and considerations are very thorough.

Your damage calculations above is what causes me to post:

I've been curious how this will play out versus my monk. I'm sure a dedicated, well built and geared tank like this one will perform strongly; and it's just what our EE group needs. However as you know, running new EEs - where you can be hit >600 per swipe - causes me to query survivability more than I used to under old EEs and I'm wondering where that thought process will end up. The monk is unlikely to ever have intim, and can't shield block, so it's merely a peripheral issue.

Anecdotally, based on my own experiences in Earth Stance, incorporeal via NS is a big factor in miss chance and dodge is far less influential than I expected it to be (that is, even at 25%, I don't see the 'Dodge' message come up anywhere near as I would have imagined).

I had thought the calculation looked like this:

Ninja Monk
- incorporeal 25% (Ninja Spy), Dodge 25% (6% monk base, 6% via EDs, 6% from items, 3% feats, 4% bard song), Concealment 20% (blur)
- delivers being hit chance irrespective of AC of (1-25%)*(1-25%)*(1-20%) = 45% (quite attractive putting aside AC and PRR considerations)

This build
- incorporeality 10% (ghostly), dodge 18%, concealment 20%
- delivers being hit chance of 59% on the same basis

Original thesis was this differential is a fair amount to make up from AC and PRR on damage taken.

Thoughts? I'm questioning it because I don't see the "Dodge" message much; and do mobs bypass dodge chance.

The follow on is then AC and PRR. With EE mob to hit being so high, I was thinking that AC for me would be irrelevant; it can be say 80 to 110 with between no and a lot of effort.

I believe that monster to hit is 2.5x CR level. Say CR 60 mob gives 150 to hit.

I believe that AC defense chance is (Mob AB + 10.5)/ (2*AC).

Hence, mob hit chance of that CR level versus AC only is
- 80 AC, 100%
- 100 AC, 80%
- 150 AC, 54%

So overall

80AC Monk 45% * 100% = 45% propsect of being hit
100AC Monk 45%*80% = 36%
150AC tank 59% * 54% = 32%

And

PRR 60 monk (in Unyielding Sentinel; 30PRR there and 30PRR from max out Earth Stance and GMOF twist) has damage reduction of 29.4% (on a 0.65&(1-0.99^60) basis). Monk has 25% further reduction say 50% of the time via Sun Soul. This is on average around 42%

Versus this with 46.1% reduction at 123 PRR.

Net net, these are probably reasonably competitive, I guess, although more spikey on the monk by far... and no intimidate.

Thoughts?

[emptysands]

HI believe that monster to hit is 2.5x CR level. Say CR 60 mob gives 150 to hit.

I believe that AC defense chance is (Mob AB + 10.5)/ (2*AC).

Hence, mob hit chance of that CR level versus AC only is
- 80 AC, 100%
- 100 AC, 80%
- 150 AC, 54%

I've got some more detailed things to say - spend the last few days working [1] though the AC/Dodge dynamic, with maybe some counter-intuitive conclusions.

Couple points from above. TOHIT rounds to the nearest 5% - which is also a major factor in making analysis tricky.

Also, the tohit above is probably too high. Someone in another location commented:

"Halsaime" has 3 different EE versions: cr 46/52/52, bab is 89/88/92 with str of 13/56/51

I've also read that EE LOB's BAB is around 150-200 - which is probably the max in game at the moment.

Also most bosses will have True Sight - so blur/displacement/concealment is not really a factor in any calculation.

It's interesting that many people have been dismissing the monk as a potential tank class with the new rules. However, I wasn't so sure - thinkung that it maybe possible to create a build quite similar to how Shadow Tanks played in SWTOR - damage avoidance tanking. In fact the Sun-Soul set bonus is pretty similar to Shadow Tanking shroud ability.

One factor lacking in DDO is taunts. Without intimidate it may be hard for Monk tank to aoe control trash, and without a high intimidate may be difficult to manage certain raid bosses in certain ways.

That said 12 Monk/8Paladin is an interesting tank build - I've thought about it before. The guy I'm going to TR for this or a similar build has an investment in certain gear, any at the moment it's mostly about figuring out what works. For example I'm discovering that +10 AC is as good/better as +10% Dodge.



[1] Check out http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...4&postcount=63. I've been trying to expand on that analysis.

[emptysands]

Here a few AC breakdowns:

• 142AC,22MDB,123PRR(46.1%) - DoS 2 Light Armor.
• 152AC,22MDB,133PRR(47.9%) - DS3 Light Armour - after enhancement update
• 160AC,7MDB,138PRR(48.8%) - DoS2 - Heavy Armour
• 174AC,8MDB,148PRR(50.3%) - DS3 - Heavy Armour - after enhancement update

Light armour build could push 25 MDB if needed. The below are all reason self-buff options. Can use Druids of the King's Forest pots for +5 Barkskin.

Heavy armour/non-evasion may be better for some fights.


DoS 2 Light Armor
AC
10 Base
14 Hide of the Goristro
03 DOS2 Stance Armour Bonus (20%)
14 +6 Alchemical
07 Shield Prowess III
03 DOS2 Stance Shield Bonus (20%)
02 Alchemical (shield+armor)
12 Dex@34
=65
05 Deflection/Protection
04 Insight/Heightened Awareness 4
01 Aura of Good
03 Paladin Bulwark of Good III
03 Natural (Abishai set)
03 Natural (rough hide/armor)
05 Natural (US1: Unbreakable Stance - sacred)
06 Lithe (Twist: SD2: +6 reflex, AC and light armour MDB)
08 Shield prowess (US1: +50% from Shield)
10 Hardened (US5)
=113
05 Natural (barkskin)
03 Natural (ship buffs)
01 Haste
03 Sigil of warding (M1: AoE sigil 60s: 3 AC and 15 PRR.)
01 Enchant Armor
01 Enchant Weapon (shield)
02 Recitation (luck)
=129
13 CE (10%)
=142

13 Half BAB (19+3)/2 + 2
15 SD II
15 Defensive stance
20 iCE (LD2 twist)
15 Legendary SM
10 Heed no pain
20 Unbreakable stance
15 Large Shield/ISM

123 46.12%



DS3 Light Armour - after enhancement update
10 Base
03 SD3
14 Hide of the Goristro
06 DS3 Stance Armour Bonus (40%)
14 +6 Alchemical
07 Shield Prowess III
06 DS3 Stance Shield Bonus (40%)
02 Alchemical (shield+armor)
12 Dex@34
=74
05 Deflection/Protection
04 Insight/Heightened Awareness 4
01 Aura of Good
03 Paladin Bulwark of Good III
03 Natural (Abishai set)
03 Natural (rough hide/armor)
05 Natural (US1: Unbreakable Stance - sacred)
06 Lithe (Twist: SD2: +6 reflex, AC and light armour MDB)
08 Shield prowess (US1: +50% from Shield)
10 Hardened (US5)
=122
05 Natural (barkskin)
03 Natural (ship buffs)
01 Haste
03 Sigil of warding (M1: AoE sigil 60s: 3 AC and 15 PRR.)
01 Enchant Armor
01 Enchant Weapon (shield)
02 Recitation (luck)
=138
14 CE (10%)
=152


13 Half BAB (19+3)/2 + 2
20 SD3
20 Defensive stance
20 iCE (LD2 twist)
15 Legendary SM
10 Heed no pain
20 Unbreakable stance
15 Large Shield/ISM

133 47.92%



DoS2 - Heavy armour
AC
10 Base
27 Embrace of the Spider Queen
05 DOS2 Stance Armour Bonus (20%)
16 +6 Heavy Celestial Shield
08 Shield Prowess III
03 DOS2 Stance Shield Bonus (20%)
02 Alchemical (shield+armor)
07 MDB (potentiall +2)
=78
05 Deflection/Protection
04 Insight/Heightened Awareness 4
01 Aura of Good
03 Paladin Bulwark of Good III
03 PDK Set
03 Natural (Abishai set)
03 Natural (rough hide/armor)
05 Natural (US1: Unbreakable Stance - sacred)
06 Lithe (Twist: SD2: +6 reflex, AC and light armour MDB) - STILL WORKS in HEAVY ARMOR?
08 Shield prowess (US1: +50% from Shield)
10 Hardened (US5)
=129
05 Natural (barkskin)
03 Natural (ship buffs)
01 Haste
03 Sigil of warding (M1: AoE sigil 60s: 3 AC and 15 PRR.)
01 Enchant Armor
01 Enchant Weapon (shield)
02 Recitation (luck)
=145
15 CE (10%)
=160

28 BAB (19+3) + 6
15 SD II
15 Defensive stance
20 iCE (LD2 twist)
15 Legendary SM
10 Heed no pain
20 Unbreakable stance
15 Large Shield/ISM

138 48.76%


DS3 - Heavy Armour - after enhancement update
AC
10 Base
03 SD3
27 Embrace of the Spider Queen
11 DS3 Stance Armour Bonus (40%)
16 +6 Heavy Celestial Shield
08 Shield Prowess III
06 DS3 Stance Shield Bonus (40%)
02 Alchemical (shield+armor)
08 MDB (potentially +2)
=91
05 Deflection/Protection
04 Insight/Heightened Awareness 4
01 Aura of Good
03 Paladin Bulwark of Good III
03 PDK Set
03 Natural (Abishai set)
03 Natural (rough hide/armor)
05 Natural (US1: Unbreakable Stance - sacred)
06 Lithe (Twist: SD2: +6 reflex, AC and light armour MDB) - STILL WORKS in HEAVY ARMOR?
08 Shield prowess (US1: +50% from Shield)
10 Hardened (US5)
=142
05 Natural (barkskin)
03 Natural (ship buffs)
01 Haste
03 Sigil of warding (M1: AoE sigil 60s: 3 AC and 15 PRR.)
01 Enchant Armor
01 Enchant Weapon (shield)
02 Recitation (luck)
=158
16 CE (10%)
=174


28 BAB (19+3) + 6
20 SD3
20 Defensive stance
20 iCE (LD2 twist)
15 Legendary SM
10 Heed no pain
20 Unbreakable stance
15 Large Shield/ISM

148 50.31%

[emptysands]

Thoughts?

Here is an example of why it's not straight forward to consider this. Notwithstanding all your source of higher damage mitigation - 25% incorp miss/25% sun soul DR.

So, 25% incorp seems a lot front-loaded. But on the back-end because of multiplicative factors it's not as much and it's all effect is dependant on the other factors.

Say you have two builds: high AC,ghostly and med AC/shadow-fade. First build is 35% hit (*) chance after AC and the second is 45% hit chance after AC.

When you factor in incorp, that is 35% - 3.5% = 31.5% and 45% - 11.25% = 33.75%

Against 150 to hit 35% HIT chance would be around 140AC/23% Dodge or 160AC/13% Dodge. 50% HIT is 110/16%.

(*) "too be hit chance"

[emptysands]

Here is a chart I've been working on. Each row/column cell is an equivalence set - AC?Dodge.




How to read the Chart

For each set of rows, the the AC shown is the "lowest" AC+Dodge to reach that HIT CHANCE (Hc). eg. 65% Hc and 75 TOHIT requires greater than 81AC and 8% Dodge or 35% Hc and 125 TOHIT requires greater than 160AC and 13% Dodge or 143AC and 23% Dodge.

Notes:

• Will always miss on a "1" - no point looking at hit chance greater than 95%.
• Conversely will always hit on a "20" - however chart only goes down to 20% hit chance
• Open question. If Dodge applies after the AC to-hit roll, is it possible to roll "20" and still dodge attack? How about Ghostly?

The benefit of dodge scales to the Hc. For example at 100 TOHIT, at 50% Hc about +8AC = 7% Dodge, at 35% Hc about +17AC = 10% Dodge.


Edit: 20120901 Improved the chart. Added description.

[emptysands]

PRR 60 monk (in Unyielding Sentinel; 30PRR there and 30PRR from max out Earth Stance and GMOF twist) has damage reduction of 29.4% (on a 0.65&(1-0.99^60) basis). Monk has 25% further reduction say 50% of the time via Sun Soul. This is on average around 42%

Versus this with 46.1% reduction at 123 PRR.

Ignoring spike damage issues with the Sun Soul set. The damage mitigation is probably multiplicative:

1 - ( 1 - .294 ) * ( 1 - .50 * .25 ) = 38.26% DMit vs 46.12% DMit.


You can get high PRR if you twist iCE:

12 Master of Stone
00 SD I - no base PRR without shield
10 Defensive stance (DS1 - actually not entire sure if you get this without a shield)
20 iCE (LD2 twist)
15 Stand with Stone (GoMF4 twist)
10 Heed no pain
20 Unbreakable stance
=89 (38.43%%)

In that case the DMit with Sun Soul is 46.12% - interestingly it is the same as 123 PRR.

T4+T2 twist is 10 + 5 fate points. Leaves you only only more possible T1 twist.

Another difference factor is shield blocking DR (+AC). If this applies after DMit maybe be quite powerful. ie. (100dmg - DR) * ( 1 - DMit) is worse than 100dmg * ( 1 - DMit) - DR.

[Fafnir]

Varz

I made my spreadsheet a little more tidy and made two comparisons.

Monk tank (AC100, 45 PRR, 25% dodge and 25% incorporeality, Sun Soul set active 1/3rd of the time)
- versus 150 mob to hit, damage taken 30%
- versus 200 mob to hit, damage taken 39%

The damage taken refers to a post mitigation and avoidance hit, assuming that the hit is impacted by PRR.

This tank (AC150, 150 PRR, 4% dodge, 10% incorporeality)
- versus 150 mob to hit, damage taken 22%
- versus 200 mob to hit, damage taken 28%

Assumptions
* mob misses on 1 and hits on a 20, so avoidance is against rolls of 2 to 19
* mob has true sight
* Sun Soul set mitigates for 10 seconds every 30 seconds, as it requires a vorpal roll
* mob damage is of a type which is mitigated by PRR

It seems that a monk will take around 36-39% more damage, even after all of his tricks. This seems to make sense compared to my actual play. So if you are trying to tank as a monk against a melee mob, I would suggest not to bother. If you are against a mob where your evasion and saves matters, you would do nicely.

It seems extremely hard for a monk to get high enough AC to really matter in tanking EE bosses - and the avoidance comes from incorporeality, dodge and sun soul. Against a 200 to hit boss, a 100AC monk would be hit 95% of the time on AC alone. For EN and EH though, you can get enough AC that you take little damage for little effort, which is what monks experience in regular play.

In general terms, with standard equipment, the high AC of the tank makes up for the avoidance of a monk. Therefore, what kills the monk is the lack of PRR. To express it differently, with 100 AC and capped dodge/incorporeality/sun soul, a monk would need 120 PRR to match this reference tank. Looking to enhace AC but leave PRR low, the monk could instead drive up to 145 AC - which is unrealistic.

The calculations and play experience both show that AC is actually well tuned now - it matters. I was soloing EE Druid's Curse for the Ivy Wraps (unsuccessfully) last night and the Woads were CR54, which should give them around 150 to hit. Playing around with AC while testing that, it was clear that my monk was in the zone where AC improvements mattered a lot in terms of survivability. That is, take a few points off and I was taking a lot more damage; add a few points on and the reduction was noticeable.

[emptysands]

In general terms, with standard equipment, the high AC of the tank makes up for the avoidance of a monk. Therefore, what kills the monk is the lack of PRR. To express it differently, with 100 AC and capped dodge/incorporeality/sun soul, a monk would need 120 PRR to match this reference tank. Looking to enhace AC but leave PRR low, the monk could instead drive up to 145 AC - which is unrealistic.

Monk also lose the "oh ****" mode: shield blocking.

[Fafnir]

Varz, I played with my monk a bit. Potential scenario based on my own monk and without changing much: AC 112, Dodge 25%, PRR 74. Leads to 24% dmg taken versus Mob To Hit 150 and 31% versus 200 on average with Sun Soul procs one third of the time. That's reasonably close to the AC tank. Costs 1 feat and 1 twist at the expense of others versus pure DPS mode but otherwise no change in stats or build.

[emptysands]

Varz, I played with my monk a bit. Potential scenario based on my own monk and without changing much: AC 112, Dodge 25%, PRR 74. Leads to 24% dmg taken versus Mob To Hit 150 and 31% versus 200 on average with Sun Soul procs one third of the time. That's reasonably close to the AC tank. Costs 1 feat and 1 twist at the expense of others versus pure DPS mode but otherwise no change in stats or build.

Pure Monk? What is the AC/feat/twist breakdown?

Will be interesting to run both our builds, you've got more past lives so might not be an even comparison.