Has Khyber's pug quality diminished?

[graf]

Ok ive been away for around a year now...but upon returning i see LFM's for epic von5-6 advertised for levels 22-25 only (no it wasnt epic elite) and other such quests we all ran relatively easily at 20.

Has pug quality really dropped so much that you need epic level only characters to run a simple raid? or is it just lazyness :P

[kazeikan]

Why do you think I'm moving to Thelanis?

[sirgog]

Think how skilled you were when playing your first level 8 character. (I was hopeless on my WF S&B Fighter with Whirlwind Attack at that time).

The stone of experience gets those people to 16, then piking gets them to 20.

I've had some good groups though recently - got through Running with the Devils elite in a PUG (which is really nasty at the moment) and have also PUGged most MOTU epic elites.

[wax_on_wax_off]

For that particular example it might just be laziness in regards to changing the level range from default (if the leader is 25) or to keep the LFM at the bottom of the list where it might be more visible.

As far as it goes, there's very little difference between a level 20 and level 25 character beyond a few HP and access to different gear (which isn't necessarily better); most of the power comes from EDs which isn't reflected in character level after 20.

[ddoplayer064]

Evidently you now need to be 21+ to run a hard Shroud, normal ToD, or Epic/norm LoD. And they say they want a "challenge"...

[taurean430]

...
Has pug quality really dropped so much that you need epic level only characters to run a simple raid?

Yes.

[Renvar]

Saying that pug quality has dropped significantly would imply that it was high to begin with. True pugs (one where less than 2 of the players are "veteran" or "end-game" caliber) have always been a **** shoot.

[djl]

PUG quality was never stellar to begin with because most "established" players found their niches with friends/guildies and ran most of their raids within those niches instead of public groups.

But since the release of the Stone of Exp, the quality of PUGs has indeed dropped across every server, not just Khyber. As someone mentioned, you get level 8 newbies who skip the 8-15 content which is where the first big leap in difficulty curve occurs so they do not learn the intricacies of the combat system nor what is and is not an effective build. They also end up being level 16 with mostly vendor trash gear, so they not only have gimp builds and little understanding of the combat system but their gear is seriously lacking as well. Then these people make it to level 20 and become deadweight trying to run raids.

[nolifer1]

PUG quality was never stellar to begin with because most "established" players found their niches with friends/guildies and ran most of their raids within those niches instead of public groups.

But since the release of the Stone of Exp, the quality of PUGs has indeed dropped across every server, not just Khyber. As someone mentioned, you get level 8 newbies who skip the 8-15 content which is where the first big leap in difficulty curve occurs so they do not learn the intricacies of the combat system nor what is and is not an effective build. They also end up being level 16 with mostly vendor trash gear, so they not only have gimp builds and little understanding of the combat system but their gear is seriously lacking as well. Then these people make it to level 20 and become deadweight trying to run raids.

i have seem many lvl 25 multiple tr-s who dont know anything about prestise enhancements. makes me pretty sad. game is difficult for new players, they dont know what feats stats etc to pick up, and this auto level thing is bs, if u make stalwarth fighter it start with 10 con....

[Terebinthia]

PUG quality was never stellar to begin with because most "established" players found their niches with friends/guildies and ran most of their raids within those niches instead of public groups.

But since the release of the Stone of Exp, the quality of PUGs has indeed dropped across every server, not just Khyber. As someone mentioned, you get level 8 newbies who skip the 8-15 content which is where the first big leap in difficulty curve occurs so they do not learn the intricacies of the combat system nor what is and is not an effective build. They also end up being level 16 with mostly vendor trash gear, so they not only have gimp builds and little understanding of the combat system but their gear is seriously lacking as well. Then these people make it to level 20 and become deadweight trying to run raids.

The first Reaver I saw for ages was led by someone with no concept of how to make a raid group. Buffed, entered the quest and afked for a few. Came back to whining about not wanting an instance and OMG what do
I doooooooooooo.... Sad times.

[Uchuujin-San]

Has pug quality really dropped so much ...?

Not yet... but i am TRing again SOON(TM)... so another 2 years of me dragging down the average level of pugs FTW! Longest TR evar aye Coino?

[djl]

i have seem many lvl 25 multiple tr-s who dont know anything about prestise enhancements. makes me pretty sad. game is difficult for new players, they dont know what feats stats etc to pick up, and this auto level thing is bs, if u make stalwarth fighter it start with 10 con....

The "paths" at the start is one of the most idiotic things in this game. It is the reason why you see so many rogues with ~200 HP at level 20.

[Ytteri]

Had a friend a while back who started a paladin on one of the pre-built paths, apparently it started him with 14 wis and 10 con. He made it to level 16 (and he EARNED that 16) but I haven't seen him online in quite a few months, I guess he finally got frustrated with the char. Turbine really REALLY needs to re-do those paths, make them so they at least could potentially be effective at end game.

[graf]

Not yet... but i am TRing again SOON(TM)... so another 2 years of me dragging down the average level of pugs FTW! Longest TR evar aye Coino?

Longest TR eva!

But yeah now ive learnt about the whole stone of experience thing it kinda makes alot more sense like DJL said Gianthold is one of the first big diffculty leaps and they get to skip it entirely and go straight to vale :S

I can understand new players being cautious the first time they run epic endgame content but i swear every LFM is 21+ for simple epics lol. I swear these pugs need to learn the way to do epics like we did, with no insta killing, mobs had a good amount of hp and they still hit like trucks.

Most decent players can solo epic hard content so why the **** would u need a 21+ group?

[djl]

Longest TR eva!

But yeah now ive learnt about the whole stone of experience thing it kinda makes alot more sense like DJL said Gianthold is one of the first big diffculty leaps and they get to skip it entirely and go straight to vale :S

I can understand new players being cautious the first time they run epic endgame content but i swear every LFM is 21+ for simple epics lol. I swear these pugs need to learn the way to do epics like we did, with no insta killing, mobs had a good amount of hp and they still hit like trucks.

Most decent players can solo epic hard content so why the **** would u need a 21+ group?

Well, there is another explanation for the epic quests that specify 21+ in the description:

To level up your Destinies, you need 1.9m exp per Epic Destiny. There is not enough experience in the game to level them all, not with repetition penalties. However, once you reach 3 million epic experience, you no longer accumulate repetitions so whatever rep penalties you earned up to that point are what you have forever.

Therefore, people save most of the Eveningstar quests and only run them often enough to flag. In the meantime, they are farming Eberron quests. The Carnival, VON, etc. People have to do those to get to level 25. Once you get to 25 the real grind begins because that is when you can actually really delve into powergrinding exp.

[Zigana]

Ok ive been away for around a year now...but upon returning i see LFM's for epic von5-6 advertised for levels 22-25 only (no it wasnt epic elite) and other such quests we all ran relatively easily at 20.

Has pug quality really dropped so much that you need epic level only characters to run a simple raid? or is it just lazyness :P

The built in auto lvl range is partly to blame. If you're the star and lvl 25, 22-25 is the default. Some people don't pay attention and correct it, or just don't care one way or the other. Typically, it only takes a quick PM to ask if the group leader will accept lower lvls--I got my hubby and I in to a 22-25 one last night on our 20's that way.

[maddmatt70]

Ok ive been away for around a year now...but upon returning i see LFM's for epic von5-6 advertised for levels 22-25 only (no it wasnt epic elite) and other such quests we all ran relatively easily at 20.

Has pug quality really dropped so much that you need epic level only characters to run a simple raid? or is it just lazyness :P

Shrug, lazyness or perhaps advertising. I have at times put up lfms that said 22-25 and then I wrote in the lfm comment accepting 16+ level characters. The reason why is because if your lfm is buried on page 2 or 3 players might not see it hence putting it at higher levels gives it more visibility.

You all forget Khyber's roots. Keep the lfms coming and new players will learn. I have been running a fair number of caught in the web pug raids with alot of pugs. Teach pugs and eventually they will be the next wave of good players on Khyber.

One of the biggest dissapoints in caught in the web is how unforgiving it is to blue bar players. Really with the spell point drains and the other multitude of issues new blue bars players are basically pikers which is brutal for them. Hard to teach somebody at such a disadvantage .

[Machination]

I never actually looked at the builds in the paths, I just assumed they are junk.

That being said, if they are that bad, DEVS please do something about it. Make a solid playable build out of these paths. It does not have to be the optimum build for the class, but at least top 2nd tier would be nice. It is really important if you want to keep players, I can just imagine how frustrating it would be to play a pali with no gear and 10 CON, come on guys you can do better than that for your new players.

Had a friend a while back who started a paladin on one of the pre-built paths, apparently it started him with 14 wis and 10 con. He made it to level 16 (and he EARNED that 16) but I haven't seen him online in quite a few months, I guess he finally got frustrated with the char. Turbine really REALLY needs to re-do those paths, make them so they at least could potentially be effective at end game.

[Machination]

Whenever you put up a PUG LFM or join a PUG with people you don't know, you are rolling the dice. Yes, its always been this way, probably always will.

Well, been spending a lot of time pugging on my second project toon, who is now almost 20 on 3rd life. What I have noticed is:

1. There seem to be more newer players that don't know the game well. This does not bother me I think fresh blood is good. It does take a bit more time and effort to help people out, but I don't mind doing that.

2. There seem to be a lot of returning players. This does not bother me, and its good to see people coming back after 1,2,3 years and checking things out. They also need a little assistance now and again, but are generally less on the input time needed to coddle along.

3. I see a lot of players very condescending when new or returning players above join the group. This bothers me. People need to understand that if everyone is a jerk, people will leave the game. I heard twice yesterday in pugs when a new or returning player asked for a share or directions to get to the quest "Why do you join a farming run if you don't know the quest". Well fact is 1st lifers, new players, returning players, 25th lifers, yes EVERYBODY does farming runs. Even if it is your first time. It takes just a little effort to say "here is how to get to the quest" or "sure he is a share". Come on people, don't be so condescending toward newer and returning players. Its immature, lame and just going to drive the game into the ground.

4. The ever present "build critic" seems to abound as well. "Your 200 HP are going to get you killed". Well fact is its fine to tell someone that they need more HP, but telling them in a condescending tone achieves nothing but demoralizes them. If you are going to critique someone's build, do it constructively, and for god's sake just run with it and let them know we are a "group" and working together we'll get you through. Is anything wrong with playing as a group and just getting it done? So what if he dies. Encourage him to lesser TR his toon at some point, but do it politely if you feel so inclined to give advice.

PUGS are exactly what you make of them. The community is exactly what you make of it.

Ok ive been away for around a year now...but upon returning i see LFM's for epic von5-6 advertised for levels 22-25 only (no it wasnt epic elite) and other such quests we all ran relatively easily at 20.

Has pug quality really dropped so much that you need epic level only characters to run a simple raid? or is it just lazyness :P

[wax_on_wax_off]

Just had a fun pug hard Vol farm with 2 monks, a fighter and myself as an Arcane Archer. Not exactly the ideal group but was very impressed that no one died in most runs and we were close to 1k xp/minute which is great for a non-caster group in any orchard quest imo.

Good range of experience too, 1 guy (the fighter) had only been playing 3 weeks he said while the 2 monks were pretty well off.