Un-nerf rangers

[SFG-Wolfie]

The problem in this thread is we have two completely different classes in discussion. The ranged Ranger and the Tempest Ranger. The Tempest is still an awesome class and can do some great damage. I don't have one but have seen some really good builds. A lot of the ED's are geared toward that and do not erally take ranged combat into account.

The ranged Rangers do need some help. I also do not see the 25% and submitted a ticket to tech on it. Also with and without there does not seem to be a difference in speed. Ranged attack speed would be a huge help. Imp Crit still does not allow for a huge difference in DPS. Some will argue (and have) that other classes will out DPS. True. I could see the difference in that and why it is. Looking at a group build it makes sense to have different classes offer different DPS types. Do I want to see my AA have the same DPS of a Water Savant with EMP and MAX on? Yes, but it is not realistic. I do wish to see ranged be more of a help in a party with a faster rate of fire and a bit more on the crit range or base damage. The base damage with the Elemental Bow hits around 120-150 but the attack speed is so slow without Many Shot that it offers little help in the overall DPS of a party. I understand why a Barbarian hits for 700+ on the front and a Ranger does not from the mid to rear of the fight. The group dynamics and melee play calls for that.

It seems the universal theme is a faster rate of fire, a Capstone that actually works, and a bit more on the crit range. I would also add a few more bows that actually have some attributes to them. A lot of crossbows out there, some sweet swords and such, but very little for bows. Lit II and Elemental Bow are really the only two worth a damned.

[murf201]

The problem in this thread is we have two completely different classes in discussion. The ranged Ranger and the Tempest Ranger. The Tempest is still an awesome class and can do some great damage. I don't have one but have seen some really good builds. A lot of the ED's are geared toward that and do not erally take ranged combat into account.

The ranged Rangers do need some help. I also do not see the 25% and submitted a ticket to tech on it. Also with and without there does not seem to be a difference in speed. Ranged attack speed would be a huge help. Imp Crit still does not allow for a huge difference in DPS. Some will argue (and have) that other classes will out DPS. True. I could see the difference in that and why it is. Looking at a group build it makes sense to have different classes offer different DPS types. Do I want to see my AA have the same DPS of a Water Savant with EMP and MAX on? Yes, but it is not realistic. I do wish to see ranged be more of a help in a party with a faster rate of fire and a bit more on the crit range or base damage. The base damage with the Elemental Bow hits around 120-150 but the attack speed is so slow without Many Shot that it offers little help in the overall DPS of a party. I understand why a Barbarian hits for 700+ on the front and a Ranger does not from the mid to rear of the fight. The group dynamics and melee play calls for that.

It seems the universal theme is a faster rate of fire, a Capstone that actually works, and a bit more on the crit range. I would also add a few more bows that actually have some attributes to them. A lot of crossbows out there, some sweet swords and such, but very little for bows. Lit II and Elemental Bow are really the only two worth a damned.

E-thornlord already out dps's them , there's other bows , but that's not so much the case .

Would be Kool if we could add an additional amount of dmg via dex , something like your so f...n. Precise your shots hit the weakest parts of your target

[Talias006]

I've seen a lot of presumptions about Rangers of the past.
While this link is to wikipedia, it does shed a lot of light on the past iterations of Rangers.
It might be worth looking at, IMO.
Ranger Class

Other than this addition, I am waiting to add my thoughts to the subject.

[HatsuharuZ]

1) Action Boosts that increase damage or attack speed

2) An enhancement that makes their weapons count as bane weapons for certain favored enemies. Maybe they get to pick one or two?

3) More spells, including weapon enchants

4) A new PrE

[Buck3tH3ad69]

I also wanted to touch on the fact that bows are clearly 2-handed weapons whereas repeaters are clearly 1-handed weapons, but they get the same bonus from str to damage. I was also wondering if power attack even effects ranged damage, and if so, as a 1-handed or 2-handed weapon, i've never taken power attack on a ranged ranger build before because it states that it only effects melee damage, but it would be nice for them to have a few feats that they can actually benefit from, considering rapid shot seems to be the only attack speed mod that actually helps at the moment, and still comes no where near the speed any melee can produce, especially when hasted.

I also agree that the ranger spells are pretty much worthless aside from Healing, FoM, remove disease, remove poison, ram's strength, and Barkskin. Their summoned pets are garbage, when u get lvl 4 spells u can summon a CR 12 pet, that even when fully buffed, will deal little damage, and die after a few hits. Their crowd control spells are also a joke considering that the dc's are extremely low and if you want to slow your enemies, you're much better off with a tendon slice weapon, but even then, you sacrifice dps you dont have. I doubt you can even buff these spells with past lives and feats enough to be viable or useful to a party.

[Talias006]

I was not aware you gained STR damage with repeaters, as they are Crossbow type, not Bow type.

[dng242]

/not signed
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Also if your only using one set of melee/ranged regularly on your ranger, your playing the class wrong.

This is true if DPS is your goal (and it is in this game), but the point it shouldn't be true. They should be allowed to be competent in one or the other (i.e. more like core rules)

...

Two Wpn Fighting has ALWAYS been a specific advantage of Rangers - As Has Bow use - BOTH are essential to the class.
...

In core rules you pick, ranged or melee. Turbine took the liberty of allowing both, the down side is now we are stuck with the above.

Rangers need a lot of help in the ranged department. I really hate that the only answer is more DPS, but that does seem to be the game we are playing. Making many shot operate as in core rules would come very close to resolving the ranged power issue.

Side Note: While I do often reference "Core rules" I'm not implying that those rules are how the game should be played (that ship has sailed). Simply using them for inspiration and ideas.

[Thayion516]

Rangers have 23 feats, 12 they can choose. Its NOT The Feat selection or the HP/Level progression that makes rangers weak. ITS THE PREs! Tempest and AA PREs are weak in comparision to many of the other PREs in game. Improve Tempest and AA PREs and Ranger will gain in relative strength in game.

Capstone is Trash also.

Also their Spells could use a rework.

My Suggestion to make me and some others I talked to in game chat consider a lv 20 Ranger.

Tempest 1 add: +10hps. +4% AC
Tempest 2 add: +10hps , +10% Exceptional Melee Alacrity that stacks while 2WF, +8% AC
Tempest 3 add: +10hps, +10% Double Strike that stacks while 2WF, +20% Exceptional Fortification, +12% AC.

AA 1 Add: +10% Exceptional Ranged Alacrity, +20sec boost that adds Elemental Mastery to ranged attacks.
Add AA 2.
AA 2 Add: +20% Exceptional Ranged Alacrity, +20sec boost that Imbues your bow with Metalline and Aligned. Can cast a lv 10 Haste effect 3 times a day.

Finish DEEP WOOD SNIPER. Make that PRE Increase Crit ranges, multipliers and get Point Blank Shot for Free.
Maybe DWS 3 Add: +20sec boost that increases base attack roll on any long bow to 1d20.

Capstone should Increase the overall Damage output of the class. Both Ranged AND Melee.
Lv 20 Capstone Rework: Adds Vorpral to any Melee or Ranged attack. Adds Improved Evasion.

Spells Reworked.
Lv1 Spells add: Cure Light wounds. Summon Natures Ally 1 should summon CR4 Vermin
Lv2 Spells add: Cure Moderate Wounds. SNA 2 summon CR8 Animal.
Lv3 Spells add: Cure Serious Wounds. SNA 3 summons CR12 Magical Beast. Improve Snare and Spike Growth.
Lv4 Spells add: Cure Critical Wounds, SNA summons CR16 Stronger Magical Beast.

I would play a ranger to 20 if that were the changes. IMO its not over the top as Many classes can still out DPS them, but it closes the gap a great deal.

PLEASE Devs. Rangers need some work.

[noinfo]

/not signed

Besides "4. Make ranged alacrity work and give full bonus", these are terrible ideas. Instead of giving us multiple toughness feats for free which is overpowered, why not just bump the hit points per level to that of a fighter. Also if your only using one set of melee/ranged regularly on your ranger, your playing the class wrong. I would absolutely be against any addition of a pet at the expense of any current ranger ability (except the charm/hold animal abilities because my dc is too low to make good use of them).

To be honest while I may do less dps than fighter/barbarians, I still would prefer to play a ranger than a rogue, and do not consider them "nerfed." I do think they lost the ability to perform at the level of top dps when the twf changes took away increases to attack speed, and they could use more enhancements and an epic feat (but a lot of classes are missing an epic feat).

From previous speculation/dev posting I am under the impression that rangers will get a boost when the enhancement pass finally takes place, but who knows when that will be since its not being mentioned anymore for update 15.

He was talking about rangers getting toughness enhancements like a fighter when unlocked with toughness.

Rangers have been the subject of proxy nerfs for years.

Dps is king
Ac typed as shield
Loss of alacrity
Monk splash for AC
Items that provide permanent version of rangers spells.

And buffs to others PRE and enhancement lines without anything for Rangers

[Buck3tH3ad69]

not sure about xbows, i assumed bow str works with them but maybe it doesnt, regardless, bows are 2 handed, but only get +1 per str bonus instead of 2 like other 2 handed weapons, although its hard to tell now that theyve taken away the listed dmg bonus in the details section of your inventory, though some of these suggestions may seem a lil crazy, fixing whats broken isnt. rangers need some love, and i agree that the capstone should benefit both tempest and arcane archers, or maybe make a 2nd capstone to choose from (and fix the one they already have), i mean fvs has like 4, why not 2 for a class that has 2 specialties?

[FranOhmsford]

This is true if DPS is your goal (and it is in this game), but the point it shouldn't be true. They should be allowed to be competent in one or the other (i.e. more like core rules)



In core rules you pick, ranged or melee. Turbine took the liberty of allowing both, the down side is now we are stuck with the above.

Rangers need a lot of help in the ranged department. I really hate that the only answer is more DPS, but that does seem to be the game we are playing. Making many shot operate as in core rules would come very close to resolving the ranged power issue.

Side Note: While I do often reference "Core rules" I'm not implying that those rules are how the game should be played (that ship has sailed). Simply using them for inspiration and ideas.

Core Rules as in 3.5?

D&D has been around a lot longer than that you know.

Two Handed Fighting and Bow use have always been Ranger abilities - Now 3.5 may have done things slightly differently and DDO certainly has BUT Rangers should get both {My post btw was in reply to the OP who said that one of these should be dropped so we could get Pets - Pets are the 3rd part of being a Ranger - Losing either of Bow Use or Two Wpn Fighting to gain Pets would be wrong in my view.}.

Rangers need their Companions {Roleplay reasons as much as anything else for those of you who insist that Companions aren't worth it} BUT this should not come at the expense of Two Wpn Fighting or Bow Use.

[maovin]

Another issue is the feat WILDERNESS LORE.... What does it do? And Why do I have Ten of them???????

[CaptainSpacePony]

Another issue is the feat WILDERNESS LORE.... What does it do? And Why do I have Ten of them???????

It's like arcane lore. And you get them every couple of levels in an apporpriate class.

[dng242]

Core Rules as in 3.5?

D&D has been around a lot longer than that you know.

The game was based off of 3.5 rules. So I'll grant you that D&D has been around a while if you will grant me the game isn't base off of Chainmail.

I have no issue with ranger's getting both lines. What I would like is for either line to be viable vs the necessity of going between melee and many shot for max dps.

Companions are fine as well. Though, I do find their use in the game more limited than what I think they should be (Would some high AC for them be that bad?). Given the current limits I would not be excited to have to loose something for them.

[FranOhmsford]

The game was based off of 3.5 rules. So I'll grant you that D&D has been around a while if you will grant me the game isn't base off of Chainmail.

I have no issue with ranger's getting both lines. What I would like is for either line to be viable vs the necessity of going between melee and many shot for max dps.

Companions are fine as well. Though, I do find their use in the game more limited than what I think they should be (Would some high AC for them be that bad?). Given the current limits I would not be excited to have to loose something for them.

It just gets a bit boring hearing the same thing over and over again - DDO is based on 3.5! Well; The advent of 3rd edition changed Dungeons and Dragons entirely.
3.5 Fixed a number of the problems with 3rd Ed. but it's still a completely different game.

However - When talking about a class and it's core abilities I feel to ignore everything before 2000 is just plain wrong!
Turbine seem to be annoying some people by adding in 4th Ed. ideas to DDO {Disclaimer: I have no interest in 4th Ed. whatsoever}. What is the issue with bringing up the fact that there were more than 20 years of D&D before 3.5 which the devs could mine for gold {when it comes to Rangers and Paladins especially}.

Again - Obviously there are limits with companions and as I stated losing either Two Wpn fighting or Bow use to gain said companion would be a joke.
BUT I wouldn't mind losing say: The Charm Animal Feats/Enhancements - What there is of them!

[xberto]

4. Make ranged alacrity work and give full bonus.
.

I tested a long time ago but i forget the numbers. I wanna say I was getting about 10% increase with Master of Archery. Has anyone tested recently?

[goodspeed]

I forget. The animation effectively kills around half of the speed boosts of ranged. I went to 20 on a ranger once. Lesson learned.

[maovin]

I tested a long time ago but i forget the numbers. I wanna say I was getting about 10% increase with Master of Archery. Has anyone tested recently?

Tested it to day we're not getting jack.... I went out to AH and got a 5 a day haste item for a 22% range attack. So this means rapid shot feat doesn't work either.