Is the E.D. system the demise of True builds?

[Captain_Wizbang]

We enjoyed the enhancement system that got redone to reward "true" builds several years ago.

Now, it seems that the E.D. system is making a true build passe.

(I also am taking into consideration, the enhancement system is getting redone & released later this year.)

Granted, true builds are focused on specific attributes, but the new balance we see actually detracts from people making them.

I have no personal opinions, Im asking for your feedback.

[Rawel_San]

Hmm at the risk of sounding as a noob. What's a "true" build?

[shadereaper33]

Hmm at the risk of sounding as a noob. What's a "true" build?

I assume he means a pure build, such as 20 fighter or 20 sorcerer. That being the case, I ask: How exactly would epic destinies have any impact on the heroic level class splits? Personally, I choose an epic destiny to fit the build of my character, not the other way around.

[Captain_Wizbang]

I assume he means a pure build, such as 20 fighter or 20 sorcerer. That being the case, I ask: How exactly would epic destinies have any impact on the heroic level class splits? Personally, I choose an epic destiny to fit the build of my character, not the other way around.

True or pure, same thing.

This is what I'm kind of referring to. Kind of.

Like I said, I have no opinion, it's a discussion.

[Flavilandile]

Well we don't have much choice in the matter.

As a Divine you have the choice between a Paladin ED or a FvS ED.
If you're a cleric you'll end up taking the FvS one -unless you're one of those battle clerics, then the Paly one might be more appealing- by default.

Now instead of making Epic Cleric Levels they went that way... As we know Turbine is deep with Wizards for 5th Ed, so maybe that's how the Epic Levels are going to be published in 5th Ed PnP.

I only played ( except for a few failed experiment 6 years ago ) pure ( ture ) characters. Now, because of the Epic Destinies I have to multiclass. 20 Something / 5 Something Epic

[arminius]

I would think that for most, the equation of whether the capstone was a primary goal of the character or not wouldn't change. I guess for some capstones the intent could be covered by something else, like how you could use some of the Paladin ED features to give a "good" or "holy" for DR breaking, in place of the capstone. But even then I'd think you'd just want BOTH, unless you had already made peace with ditching the capston for a multiclass a long time ago.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I see the EDs as a big win for many mixed class and pure builds. The EDs can do so much, it allows you to play that "formally" gimped pure class or that "formally" gimped mixed class.

The new content in general makes it tricky for us tricked out long time players to re-slot gear.

At first when I first contemplated the effect of the EDs I was afraid it would force almost every build into a big ole Turbine grade cookie cutter, but in reality its the exact opposite.

If you built a cookie cutter type build, you can "personalize him". If you built a unique toon that specializes, you can enhance your specialties, or take him/her in an entirely new direction that was impossible before EDs existed.

I think the EDs are a big win for many, minus the bugs of course. They did a great job.

[Failedlegend]

Hmm at the risk of sounding as a noob. What's a "true" build?

It's another term like "Pure" for single class builds...people use it to make single class builds sound some how better than multiclass ones

[Enoach]

I don't see EDs as benefiting "Pure" or "Multi" class characters more or less. I see it as a way to work in features that can enhance the play of the character...

Such as a Tank being able to up their DPS using the ability to twist in DPS related or going with a specific ED that enhances DPS.

Or a DPS machine, honing more DPS or even getting more self sufficiency of healing.

Or a Weak casting class able to extend their SP pool

The ED or Twists help carve out that build better by magnifying its strengths or adding in coverage for its weaknesses.

[Varr]

Evasion was the demise of single class builds around the time the game launched.

Min-Maxing and Capstones had a little battle royal, but for almost all builds that are not ranged rangers or Sorcs, the capstone is simply a token reward for those that chose to play a one dimentunal weaker character.

Rereading that it sounds harsher than intended. Multi class characters are almost always better and once Ddo did not carry the xp penalty that was the pnp deterant, pures were a rollplay decision.

[Missing_Minds]

Evasion was the demise of single class builds around the time the game launched.

Which is why they have never released a "ring of evasion" per pnp. Sides, multi classing for that has been part of the game since 3.0. Big deal.

The "bonus" for being pure just.... well frankly isn't as huge as it once was, let alone some of them really stunk comparative to other classes.

we really won't know until the enhancment pass in U16 as it isn't happening in U15.

[Therrias]

Capstones were a silly idea. Especially when not all of them are good.

Staying "pure" should be its own reward, just as multiclassing is its own reward. No need for incentives.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Evasion was the demise of single class builds around the time the game launched.

Min-Maxing and Capstones had a little battle royal, but for almost all builds that are not ranged rangers or Sorcs, the capstone is simply a token reward for those that chose to play a one dimentunal weaker character.

Rereading that it sounds harsher than intended. Multi class characters are almost always better and once Ddo did not carry the xp penalty that was the pnp deterant, pures were a rollplay decision.

This is a bit of a narrow POV.

Let's see:
Barbarian: most THF'ing barbs I see are pure for the capstone - nice DPS
Fighter: pure fighter is generally more DPS than 18/ fighter though 12/ can give more
Paladin: capstone is significant DPS increase particularly if grouped with an appropriate weapon, most splashes are for versatility rather than DPS (feats on an SD build for instance).
Ranger: I'd never play a pure ranger.
Monk: everyone loves their pure monks for the additional DC on moves (which translates to DPS)
Rogue: +2 int, +4d6 SA? Yes please!
Druid: no opinion here
Cleric: I like splashed clerics myself
Favoured Soul: such a strong capstone and few high level spell slots make pure the best choice in most cases
Sorcerer: capstone is less impressive now but spell slots and spell pen is important
Wizard: capstone is amazing for SP efficiency, spell penetration and DCs though not needed except in EE
Bard: pure bard is already a good choice in most cases for higher party DPS and lack of important feats for a THF'ing character with the possibility for solid CC make pure the best choice imo (read: well rounded bard rather than fighter who has to spend 5 minutes buffing to fight).
Artificer: capstone is amazing, evasion from Shadowdancer, can already fit extra feats, no need to splash.

That's 5 classes that are definitely better pure, another 5 that you can argue either way, 2 that I don't have an opinion on and 1 that is definitely better splashed.

Don't see roleplay here.

[Ape_Man]

Capstones were a silly idea. Especially when not all of them are good.

Staying "pure" should be its own reward, just as multiclassing is its own reward. No need for incentives.

That doesn't make any sense.

[Failedlegend]

It's another derogatory term like "Pure" for single class builds...people use it to make single class builds sound some how better than multiclass ones

I'm sorry I didn't realize telling the truth called for Neg Rep....the terms "Pure" & "True" have always been used to insult multiclass builds implying that they are tainted and fake.

[ddoplayer064]

I'm sorry I didn't realize telling the truth called for Neg Rep....the terms "Pure"& "True" have always been used to insult multiclass builds implying that they are tainted and fake.

Funny, I've never heard "pure" used as a derogatory.

[ulticleo]

I'm sorry I didn't realize telling the truth called for Neg Rep....the terms "Pure"& "True" have always been used to insult multiclass builds implying that they are tainted and fake.

nope. Never heard the term "true" until this thread. I assume the op just got mixedup, tbh.
"pure" has no insult associated with it. pure water is simply that - water and nothing else. Similarly, a pure fighter is simply saying that the character has no other class other than fighter. splash, multiclass etc. is not pure.

[Failedlegend]

Funny, I've never heard "pure" used as a derogatory.

Its used a a compliment to Single Class builds and implies multiclass builds are thus the opposite

[MeliCat]

Capstone or not - so many are completely outshone by other things on offer. What worries me with the upcoming talk of enhancments and what looks to me like Pres tied to races, is there going to be enough flexibility to go less than pure-ish (say to 18)? I found that kind of odd.

I would like to approach this as others already seem to be (eg Nick's rogue thread and the reference to that long gone rage from a dev) with a "oooh look new shinies!"... but I'll probably be doing a little bit of grieving for the stuff I can't have any more.

The EDs are a great way to distract from from my grieving as the extra levels and twists allow me to do things better/more than the original build. I think it was really smart of them actually to release EDs before the enhancement updates.

[disclaimer: building and gearing are probably the weakest parts of my gameplay and my opinion is based off the little I understand]

[sephiroth1084]

We enjoyed the enhancement system that got redone to reward "true" builds several years ago.

Now, it seems that the E.D. system is making a true build passe.

(I also am taking into consideration, the enhancement system is getting redone & released later this year.)

Granted, true builds are focused on specific attributes, but the new balance we see actually detracts from people making them.

I have no personal opinions, Im asking for your feedback.

You do quite obviously have an opinion, which seems to come out in your usage of "true" instead of "pure" and the way you frame your questions.

Capstones were a silly idea. Especially when not all of them are good.

Staying "pure" should be its own reward, just as multiclassing is its own reward. No need for incentives.

That's totally illogical. There are incentives to multiclassing, that's why people do it in DDO. You multiclass to gain versatility, or more power in a particular area by synergizing abilities between classes. You don't multiclass simply because it is arbitrarily rewarding.

Similarly, going pure should also offer incentives, and does. The capstones are part of that. The prestige enhancements are another. The D&D 3.5 designers have said numerous times that they regret not putting capstone enhancements on the core classes to draw people to go pure on them, and is something that Paizo made sure to do when they drafted Pathfinder.

It's another term like "Pure" for single class builds...people use it to make single class builds sound some how better than multiclass ones

Derogatory how? It's a term used to indicate that you mean to not multiclass. You could also say, "I'm a homogenous <insert class>," but that's a bit more of a mouthful than to simply say, "I'm a pure <insert class>." I suppose you can take 'pure' to imply 'untainted,' but no one does. Except you apparently.

The ED system has almost zero bearing upon multi-/pure-classing. For the most part, the characters that benefited from going pure before still do, and those that didn't still don't. There are some exceptions, but the only significant one I can think of is for any characters that were planning to splash 2 rogue or monk for Evasion and also end as a Shadowdancer--they now have the option of not making that splash and still playing at end game with Evasion.

What's had a greater effect on the pure vs. multiclass debate is Overwhelming Critical, which strongly encourages multiclassing on most characters in order to fit in the bloated prerequisites.