Passive party bonuses should not cost 6 ED pts.

[andepans]

The t5/6 Fatesinger ability bound fate/grim fate should not cost 6 points to max out. This ability is:

- On a 4 minute cooldown,
- clearly designed to be effective only as a passive boost to party DPS vs bosses,
- carries a prohibitive 6 ED point cost,
- is a CHA DC, pigeonholing bards into the cookie-cutter "max-CHA build,"
- on a tangent here, but here's another ability that forces players to guesstimate DC without any guidance whatsoever.

This ability adds no fun or strategic depth to the fatesinger ED. None whatsoever. Click once every 240 seconds so your group gets a slight damage boost? Is this really how 6 epic destiny points ought to be spent? Please post here if you can think of how this ability could be used strategically, or how the other fatesinger abilities come close to mirroring the party effectiveness offered by bound/grim fate.

Otherwise the bard ED just continues the trend started with the enhancement system: Bards are forced to choose between powerful abilities that increase a party's effectiveness and mediocre abilities that add depth to the class. Please make this ability a 1 - 1 ED point cost. This is an easy change to code, will add a great deal of player choice and depth to the ED, and in no way affect game or class balance.

[shadereaper33]

First of all, this is a VERY powerful boost to damage if it sticks. My sorcerer can do 2k+ damage with a single spell cast on a non-crit, 6.5k+ on a crit. With this active at the time, that is 240-780 additional damage, from 1 spell. From the melee side of the house, I have a fighter that can hit for 100+ on non-crits, and he isn't very well geared. That is 12 points of damage per swing extra, for free. That is a pretty **** powerful effect, especially when you consider that it will be multiplied by 12. The DC based on CHA means that it is designed with the high-cha bards in mind, while fragment of the song: valor and turn of the tide are designed for the high-str bards. There are multiple options for multiple builds in this tree, just like in all the others. If one doesn't appeal to you, that doesn't make it a bad option, just not a good one for you. If you feel "pigeon-holed" by the fact that this ability exists, then just pretend that it doesn't, and your problem is solved. Not everything is going to be perfect for whatever your build of choice is. Everything you have pointed out as being "wrong" with this ability, I find to be a perfect counterbalance to a very powerful effect. The only thing I agree with you on is that is should display the DC of the effect in the tooltip.

[andepans]

First of all, this is a VERY powerful boost to damage if it sticks

Ergo every fatesinger should plan to use this ability. While most EDs contain "must-have" abilities, fatesinger is singular in that it's "must-have" ability is both ridiculously expensive and essentially a purely passive boost to party DPS with zero tactical depth.

Everything you have pointed out as being "wrong" with this ability, I find to be a perfect counterbalance to a very powerful effect.

A massive investment of customization potential is by no means the perfect counterbalance for a passive boost to party effectiveness. Bards have been rightfully complaining about the massive AP investment required for inspire courage (1+2+3 dmg + 2+4+6 att = 18 APs) since the enhancement system was developed. The bard ED is more of the same.

[threefeetunder]

The t5/6 Fatesinger ability bound fate/grim fate should not cost 6 points to max out. This ability is:

- On a 4 minute cooldown,

It's a song, so affected by lingering song enhancements, so a bard can pretty much have it up 50% of the time despite the long cooldown which isn't too bad, though it DOES screw over non-bards.

- clearly designed to be effective only as a passive boost to party DPS vs bosses,

it's a HUGE boost to party dps. Probably the biggest overall dps boost all destinies considered, what else did you want it to do?

- carries a prohibitive 6 ED point cost,

Considering the above, this seems fine, though if you want to save points, I recommend going 2/3 on both as they only increase vuln by 2% on the third tier, so it's only 4 points spent overall.

- is a CHA DC, pigeonholing bards into the cookie-cutter "max-CHA build,"

The DC has a very high base even with low cha. My bard has a starting cha of 14 (no lvlups) and nofails it on just about everything (did fail this one time on the red named priestess from impossible demands though), back when they showed the DC in beta it was at 69 DC. A bard with 8 cha (3 less DC) should still be more than able to land it on everything.

- on a tangent here, but here's another ability that forces players to guesstimate DC without any guidance whatsoever.

no arguments here. Would be nice if they showed how they calculate the DC on it.

[Azdraugnor]

it's a HUGE boost to party dps. Probably the biggest overall dps boost all destinies considered, what else did you want it to do?

He didn't say it was weak. He said it was mindless.

A lot of the other destiny "capstones" have a lot of interesting gameplay attached to them-- they do very unique things that add depth to gameplay. Fatesinger doesn't really have that. It's powerful, yes, but it's also boring.

Stuff like Master's Blitz or Everything is Nothing are really awesome. Maybe they're not as powerful, but they're fun to use because they're flashy in some way, and it's possible to get even more mileage out of them by playing well (IE when adds spawn).

Bound Fate is just "use this on the kill target every time it's off cooldown". Worse yet, because it primarily affects the party, you don't really get to see the effects, and that's no fun.

[threefeetunder]

Stuff like Master's Blitz or Everything is Nothing are really awesome. Maybe they're not as powerful, but they're fun to use because they're flashy in some way, and it's possible to get even more mileage out of them by playing well (IE when adds spawn).

Bound Fate is just "use this on the kill target every time it's off cooldown". Worse yet, because it primarily affects the party, you don't really get to see the effects, and that's no fun.

My 2.5k chords says otherwise. You get bigger, purple numbers out of it, of course you see the effects. Master's blitz and everything is nothing are epic moments, if you want the fatesinger equivalent, it's turn of the tide, which is not what this thread is about.

I don't understand the mindless comment. This is how the large majority of epic destiny enhancements are like, use on target whenever it's off cooldown. Actually that's how the large majority of abilities in the game works, use it on a suitable target when you can. How did you want it to work?

[Azdraugnor]

My 2.5k chords says otherwise. You get bigger, purple numbers out of it, of course you see the effects. Master's blitz and everything is nothing are epic moments, if you want the fatesinger equivalent, it's turn of the tide, which is not what this thread is about.

I don't understand the mindless comment. This is how the large majority of epic destiny enhancements are like, use on target whenever it's off cooldown. Actually that's how the large majority of abilities in the game works, use it on a suitable target when you can. How did you want it to work?

Most of the other epic destiny enhancements that I've seen have something that makes them more interesting than "use it off cooldown". Momentum Swing is refreshed by cleave abilities, and it refreshed Lay Waste. The monk abilities will reward you if you position them well, or time them for large packs of enemies. Shadowdancers have all kinds of crazy stuff they can throw around.

And so on. By contrast, Bound Fate is bland, made all the moreso because it's used rarely. It's like rebuffing the group with haste every few minutes-- it's useful, and it's something that you and your group will want to do, but it's not fun. And based on the other top-tier active abilities, "flashy and fun" was one of things they were going for when they were designed.

[Tid12]

Most of the other epic destiny enhancements that I've seen have something that makes them more interesting than "use it off cooldown". Momentum Swing is refreshed by cleave abilities, and it refreshed Lay Waste. The monk abilities will reward you if you position them well, or time them for large packs of enemies. Shadowdancers have all kinds of crazy stuff they can throw around.

And so on. By contrast, Bound Fate is bland, made all the moreso because it's used rarely. It's like rebuffing the group with haste every few minutes-- it's useful, and it's something that you and your group will want to do, but it's not fun. And based on the other top-tier active abilities, "flashy and fun" was one of things they were going for when they were designed.

Shadowdancer what? The most bugged destiny at the moment? The one giving 2d6, TWO D SIX, damage with his EPIC moment? Or are you talking about Consume, with its DC bugged?

Wanna trade Fearsome Invulnerability for it? Or maybe the Magister one? You seriously understimate the power of your abilities. I'd take Bound Fate/Grim anyday.

When I think about Bards, role support is what comes to mind. Of couse you can dps with your bard but you can't dps like a barb. On the other hand, noone can support and add dps with buffs like Bards. I seriously can't understand whats the problem.

I also tried Bounds on my sorcs. They are powerfull, they are lots of dps, they are awesome and JUST cost 6 points.

[Azdraugnor]

Shadowdancer what? The most bugged destiny at the moment? The one giving 2d6, TWO D SIX, damage with his EPIC moment? Or are you talking about Consume, with its DC bugged?

Every destiny I've tried has a lot of bugs right now. The fact that it's not working right doesn't mean that it won't be cool when it gets resolved. As for the minor damage bonus, that's a balance issue, not a lack of "flashy and fun"-- I'd argue that increased melee range by attacking through shadows is pretty cool, although maybe it lacks usefulness.

Wanna trade Fearsome Invulnerability for it? Or maybe the Magister one? You seriously understimate the power of your abilities. I'd take Bound Fate/Grim anyday.

Did you read the thread? No one said it was weak.

When I think about Bards, role support is what comes to mind. Of couse you can dps with your bard but you can't dps like a barb. On the other hand, noone can support and add dps with buffs like Bards. I seriously can't understand whats the problem.

Again, did you read the thread? This isn't a problem with it being a support ability. Support is great, and it can be very fun. Bound Fate is good but not fun.

I also tried Bounds on my sorcs. They are powerfull, they are lots of dps, they are awesome and JUST cost 6 points.

Uh... okay? Everyone here has already agreed that it's extremely powerful, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[Tid12]

Every destiny I've tried has a lot of bugs right now. The fact that it's not working right doesn't mean that it won't be cool when it gets resolved. As for the minor damage bonus, that's a balance issue, not a lack of "flashy and fun"-- I'd argue that increased melee range by attacking through shadows is pretty cool, although maybe it lacks usefulness.


Did you read the thread? No one said it was weak.


Again, did you read the thread? This isn't a problem with it being a support ability. Support is great, and it can be very fun. Bound Fate is good but not fun.


Uh... okay? Everyone here has already agreed that it's extremely powerful, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Let's see..you agree it's very powerfull..so you want a very powerfull ability cost less than the so-so abilities? Because they all cost at least 3 points to max out. Thats what you are asking for and it's illogical.

If you don't want to spend 6 points on these so VERY powerfull abilities then just don't, you aren't forced to do so.

Asking to make it a 1-1 cost ability..why not free? That's just insane. It's an epic moment (actually, I consider both of them epic moments) that add lots of dps to EVERYONE in your party. The cost is fine and it is proportionate to its benefits given to the party.

[Barazon]

- is a CHA DC, pigeonholing bards into the cookie-cutter "max-CHA build,"

Not to try to lessen your argument at all, but to point out that this is part of a disturbing trend. Bards are not the only ones suffering from this lately. Many new U14 destinies and feats either have requirements or DCs that are basically of the "build your toon the way WE think it should be done or you can't have it" type.

[Azdraugnor]

Let's see..you agree it's very powerfull..so you want a very powerfull ability cost less than the so-so abilities? Because they all cost at least 3 points to max out. Thats what you are asking for and it's illogical.

If you don't want to spend 6 points on these so VERY powerfull abilities then just don't, you aren't forced to do so.

The problem is that its powerful, expensive, and boring. If it's going to cost so many points, make it more interesting.

[Tid12]

The problem is that its powerful, expensive, and boring. If it's going to cost so many points, make it more interesting.

Powerful = Expensive, no problem with that.

Boring? Singing Insipire Courage isn't boring then? Or casting haste? Same thing, just with Bounds being 100 times more powerfull. They are buffs, they aren't meant to be "fun". They are meant to help the party to be more effective. How would you make this ability more interesting? Lessening the cost? How would that make it "less boring" ?

[Azdraugnor]

Powerful = Expensive, no problem with that.

Boring? Singing Insipire Courage isn't boring then? Or casting haste? Same thing, just with Bounds being 100 times more powerfull. They are buffs, they aren't meant to be "fun". They are meant to help the party to be more effective. How would you make this ability more interesting? Lessening the cost? How would that make it "less boring" ?

Make it do something interesting.

Maybe for the next fifteen seconds, each spell you cast makes each party member's next attack explode for bonus sonic damage. Maybe it could speed up the party's ability cooldowns temporarily. Maybe it could remove or reduce ability costs for a very short time. Or any number of other interesting buffs.

[Whesper]

Well, it could have a bit lower DC, but require some conditions to be able to activate. Maybe like Misntrel's ballads in another game published by Turbine?

Anyways, it shouldn't be on the top of the things that need changing/fixing.

[Azdraugnor]

Anyways, it shouldn't be on the top of the things that need changing/fixing.

No argument there. Iron out the bugs first.