Give TRs benefits that activate at level 20

[MRMechMan]

Passive, stack 3x.


Epic Artificer: +1 caster level of any item you use
Epic Barbarian: 10hp; +1 damage; +1 fort saves
Epic Bard: +2 cha skills, enemies that strike you have a 1% chance of being danced (DC=char level +20) for 6 seconds.
Epic Cleric: +10 positive/light/alignment spellpower; +1 will saves
Epic Druid: +10 fire, water, elec and acid spellpower
Epic Favored Soul: +10 light alignment and untyped spellpower
Epic Fighter: 2% doublestrike
Epic Monk: +1 all saves
Epic Paladin: +2 saves vs poison, disease and fear; +1 fort and will saves
Epic Ranger: 1 favored enemy +2 damage/attack.
Epic Rogue: +2 MS/hide, +2 damage/+1 attack while SAing; +1 reflex save
Epic Sorcerer: +5 universal spellpower, maximize and emp cost 1 fewer sp
Epic Wizard: +10 force/reconstruct spellpower, heighten costs 2 fewer sp (total, not per level like capstone)

This is in addition to any passive heroic benefits, which are retained when a character hits 20.

Completionist is now passive and does not require a feat. Its stat boosts apply at level 1 and count for any and all relevent feat/enhancement prequisites.

Logic/Reasoning:

The motivation to TR is no longer there. Epic destinies are so overwhelmingly powerful that grinding out a barb level looks thoroughly uninviting; foolish, even. Ditto on almost every other past life. 10 hp or 1 attack or 1 damage is next to nothing now when a teir of an epic destiny gives 50hp or 5 attack or 5 damage.

So what happens when the new content is dead? The raid is buggy and does not sound fun in the least. People will tire of it fast, I'll wager. Loot doesn't seem to be impressing anyone. TRing was what kept this game great for a long time, but there is no longer any motivation to do so. Many players that went completionist don't even slot the feat!

So the motivation to TR needs to be put back in place. I truely feel this needs to be done. The TRing scene is a wasteland. People complain that TRs are overpowered...well, not really. Not anymore. A first lifer with access to even 1 epic destiny maxed out is easily more powerful than a completionist with no EDs.

These passive PL feats do not make TRs any more powerful in heroic content. They merely offset the power creep (and by creep I mean explosion) that EDs have created, and make TRing a viable way to improve your character again.

Because except for wizard/fvs past lives for spell pen, and perhaps ranger on an arti, all the others are so hopelessly outclassed at endgame that it just doesn't matter.

There are people who I am sure will disagree with this; indeed, I am sure there are still those out there who think TRs should be nerfed. But I do not think there is anything unbalancing or game breaking here; indeed, no more unbalancing than epic destinies are.

As for *why* turbine should do this? Simple: customer retention. After more and more people cap out their epic destinies, have beaten the new content on epic elite, maxed out PDK favor, gotten their red or green armor, what is their left to do?

There are two things that happen when a player gets tired of endgame. TRing, and leaving the game. They just need to give players the motivation to do the former so they don't do the latter.

Suggestions/Feedback welcomed.

[karatemack]

The motivation to TR is no longer there. Epic destinies are so overwhelmingly powerful that grinding out a barb level looks thoroughly uninviting; foolish, even. Ditto on almost every other past life. 10 hp or 1 attack or 1 damage is next to nothing now when a teir of an epic destiny gives 50hp or 5 attack or 5 damage.

Just eliminate the xp curve and the motivation is there again.

There are two things that happen when a player gets tired of endgame. TRing, and leaving the game. They just need to give players the motivation to do the former so they don't do the latter.

Removing the XP curve would do this nicely without having to make up/add a bunch of Epic PL feats.

[Shishizaru]

Random feedback: You might consider revamping the Epic Paladin PL suggestion. Any level 3+ Paladin is still immune to disease and fear (be it natural, magical or supernatural), so gets nothing from the +2 to saves.

[janave]

I like what you did on the Bard, but honestly i dont really wish for DDO to go in the direction of *TR is THE way to play.*

Its a really good option, imo a lot better than sitting at and game, watching your raid timers to go off. But the benefits are already there in the enhanced experience/journey to 20. I like it to be an option rather than sometihng very recommended to do.

I think after a year *some* ppl would go about this like:, oh dude you arent even a legend build ? --> Boot. There is already a huge *gap* between vets/freshlings, its sad to watch how unforgiving people can be on low level questing with newbies.

*Mostly this is due to DDO's somewhat steep learning curve, and somewhat to the reign of gear which is aboundant for a vet player.

PS: the monks would be p***ed at that +1saves

[pie2655]

Yes, lets also give them free +2 tomes at level7!

[Synthetic]

They already exist twists and ED.

[Phemt81]

Cool idea.

A little diversion about your idea is to give more perks if you TR at level 25 with a full unlocked destiny instead of 20

[pie2655]

TR2Win

[grayham]

I like the idea Mrmech.

/signed

[MRMechMan]

I like what you did on the Bard, but honestly i dont really wish for DDO to go in the direction of *TR is THE way to play.*

I think after a year *some* ppl would go about this like:, oh dude you arent even a legend build ? --> Boot. There is already a huge *gap* between vets/freshlings, its sad to watch how unforgiving people can be on low level questing with newbies.

First lifers and TRs have never been as close in power at endgame as right now. TR being THE way has never been less true than right now.

There is very, very little motivation to TR, and I don't think that is good for the long term health of the game.

This would not change the power gap between first lifers and TRs in heroic content at all. Any conceived difference betweem TRs and first lifers is general not from past lives; it is 90%+ from knowledge, skill and gear.

Booted for not being legend? Doubt it. I don't see characters booted for not having epic destinies, and that is a MUCH bigger power increase.

TR2Win

I expected comments like this. TR2win? Not really. It is just another way to balance the time that people choose to put into the game. Right now it is ED2win and gear2win, as past lives are quite irrelevent.

I am just saying that they should be made relevent again, and this seems like the best way to do it.

[pie2655]

I expected comments like this. TR2win? Not really. It is just another way to balance the time that people choose to put into the game. Right now it is ED2win and gear2win, as past lives are quite irrelevent.

I am just saying that they should be made relevent again, and this seems like the best way to do it.

And i expected comments like this. Remove intelligence from the forums please!

[Rian]

I feel like these should only apply if you're pure or majority of one class.
Turbine needs to throw pure class characters a bone, capstones didn't quite do it imo.

Or you could pick up to maybe 3 when you reach level 20.

[Machination]

Point by Point opinion:

Passive, stack 3x.


Epic Artificer: +1 caster level of any item you use
Epic Barbarian: 10hp; +1 damage; +1 fort saves
Epic Bard: +2 cha skills, enemies that strike you have a 1% chance of being danced (DC=char level +20) for 6 seconds.
Epic Cleric: +10 positive/light/alignment spellpower; +1 will saves
Epic Druid: +10 fire, water, elec and acid spellpower
Epic Favored Soul: +10 light alignment and untyped spellpower
Epic Fighter: 2% doublestrike
Epic Monk: +1 all saves
Epic Paladin: +2 saves vs poison, disease and fear; +1 fort and will saves
Epic Ranger: 1 favored enemy +2 damage/attack.
Epic Rogue: +2 MS/hide, +2 damage/+1 attack while SAing; +1 reflex save
Epic Sorcerer: +5 universal spellpower, maximize and emp cost 1 fewer sp
Epic Wizard: +10 force/reconstruct spellpower, heighten costs 2 fewer sp (total, not per level like capstone)

This is in addition to any passive heroic benefits, which are retained when a character hits 20.

Completionist is now passive and does not require a feat. Its stat boosts apply at level 1 and count for any and all relevent feat/enhancement prequisites.

That would equate to more power creep. I don't think that any of what you have suggested is needed.

Logic/Reasoning:

The motivation to TR is no longer there. Epic destinies are so overwhelmingly powerful that grinding out a barb level looks thoroughly uninviting; foolish, even. Ditto on almost every other past life. 10 hp or 1 attack or 1 damage is next to nothing now when a teir of an epic destiny gives 50hp or 5 attack or 5 damage.

You seem to forget that your past lives STACK with everything. They stack with ED, they stack with gear, they stack with each other (up to 3X). So yes, 3 X barb lives is only 30 HP which is only 3% of a very lowly build 1000HP lvl 25 Barb. But its 3% that you don't have if you don't have those past lives....period. No other way to get that 3%.

So what happens when the new content is dead? The raid is buggy and does not sound fun in the least.

What you describe as a problem is a content and Q&A problem, it has nothing to do with past life feats.

People will tire of it fast, I'll wager. Loot doesn't seem to be impressing anyone.

This does seem to be the general mood.

TRing was what kept this game great for a long time, but there is no longer any motivation to do so.

Well, a lot of players were playing "end game" and not TR'ing for the past year(s) because they did not enjoy the re-run of low level content. TRing kept this game great for some players, for other players the game was "end game" content. Some players did both.

Many players that went completionist don't even slot the feat!

You know that Turbine has all the stats, and the % of players that slot the feat is a button away. Why is it a concern to them if players slot the feat or not?

Now on to something a bit more rudimentary. You build a character with feats, not around those feats. Feats are a tool for character building. By the time you have completionist you already have all the stacking past life feats, and fact is the +2 to all stats really only makes sense if:

1. You really want that +2 to that one stat that you won't get anywhere else that is stacking with everything else.

or;

2. You want to spread your stats out and make a more flexible character, and the only way to really do it the way you want is with the completionist feat that is going to give you +2 to all stats and skills.

or;

3. You just want it because its there to have.

If some players get access to the feat but don't slot it, who cares? How is that even a valid discussion point? All players have access to the "improved trip" feat, but who takes it except those who see value in it and build it into their characters?

So the motivation to TR needs to be put back in place. I truely feel this needs to be done.

The motivation to TR is stacking feats that you cannot get anywhere else.

The TRing scene is a wasteland.

Please explain the statement that "TRing scene is a wasteland".

A first lifer with access to even 1 epic destiny maxed out is easily more powerful than a completionist with no EDs.

So your argument is to compare apples to oranges? Try comparing apples to apples with the same ED at the same level, a more scientific method and approach. A 1% difference, 2%, 3%? Well depends on the build, but there is an undeniable difference.

These passive PL feats do not make TRs any more powerful in heroic content.

After I read this sentence, I am pretty sure that you must have never TR'd. Have you? Because if you have actually ever TR'd I cannot comprehend how you could have come to this conclusion, unless you do not understand how to build a solid toon.

They merely offset the power creep (and by creep I mean explosion) that EDs have created, and make TRing a viable way to improve your character again.

I am not comprehending your point in this sentence. Are you complaining about TR or complaining about ED?

Because except for wizard/fvs past lives for spell pen, and perhaps ranger on an arti, all the others are so hopelessly outclassed at endgame that it just doesn't matter.

Again, its going to come down to the 1%-3% or whatever difference. But it all adds up, and fact remains the only way to get that extra edge, assuming you have all the gear and all the ED's opened, is past lives. And they all stack.

[MRMechMan]

Is all this needed?

I don't know. But I do know that people respond to incentives, and if there is not really an incentive to TR, people won't do it. Certainly on my server the TRing scene is indeed pretty dead. Shockingly dead, in some cases. Power gamers just are not doing it, because it is essentially a waste of time.

The benefits of these specific passive TR feats would only be unlocked at level 20, hence them having no effect on heroic levels. These epic passive abilities are different than the heroic ones-which is why I said these passive abilities have no effect on character power...as they are nonexistant when heroic.

I am well aware that these benefits would stack with everything. That is the point. It is so revolting that someone who is willing to grind out 3 barb past lives gets 3% more hp at cap-or more? These are supposed to stack with EDs, to make TRing viable again. It isn't an either/or kind of thing. You can do both, or neither. 1st lifers would still be viable, as they definitely are right now.

If someone wants to take the time and effort to improve their character through TRing, that should be rewarded. Right now, it is not, and it shows, as far fewer people are doing it.

If you want to compare the same build with no past lives and an epic destiny vs 1 with say 3 PLs, the difference is very very small in most cases. The only one that matters would be a caster with 3 wizard PLs. Monk? fighter? bard? Nope, those are now near worthless.

When several multi TRs come out and say they had wished they had never done completionist or had never done most of their past lives, that really drives the point home for others; TRing is a waste of time and anyone who does it for the benefits to make their character more powerful is foolish.

I don't think it should be that way. Is asking for more than a .5%-1% increase in power level for doing multiple past lives that absurd?

[karatemack]

If someone wants to take the time and effort to improve their character through TRing, that should be rewarded.

It IS rewarded, but as you're pointing out the time investment is not worth the reward. You suggest upping the reward, I suggest reducing the time investment.

Remove XP scaling. Problem solved.

[shadereaper33]

I could support this if, and only if, it required you to TR at level 25 and required you to be a pure build to get, so to get the epic fighter PL you would have to be lvl 25 with 20 fighter levels. I think the perks you have listed are far too powerful, especially with the 3x stacking, to be able to achieve in any other way.

[Dingleburr]

Point by Point opinion:
You seem to forget that your past lives STACK with everything. They stack with ED, they stack with gear, they stack with each other (up to 3X). So yes, 3 X barb lives is only 30 HP which is only 3% of a very lowly build 1000HP lvl 25 Barb. But its 3% that you don't have if you don't have those past lives....period. No other way to get that 3%.

Right, assuming infinite free time to grind out the perfect gear set, ED, twists, and multiple past lives.

But the point of this thread is that there are many avenues of improvement. For those of us playing in our free time, that upgrade to the third twist slot from a destiny 3 clicks away also stacks with everything. It's not exactly rocket science to figure out which path provides the least improvement per time invested.

For my part I have one 'capped' character and one nearly capped. Both are getting lots of play-time, and I have no plans to TR either any time soon. My TR2, on the other hand, has been sitting at L18 since the expansion hit and is going nowhere fast. So I sort of agree with the lack of TR incentive.

[redspecter23]

I agree that past lives and completionist are now such minor bonuses compared to ED in particular. You do have to be careful about power creep and how many stackable bonuses are added by implementing this new list. I'd suggest something that follows in line with the new destiny twists. Instead of autogranting passive past lives allow them to be "twisted in" at different level thresholds. Past life twists could be applied at level 1, then every 5th level after that (1/5/10/15/20/25).

Because the power creep is limited to 6 passive past lives, you can make each individual one stronger if needed in order to balance out the fact that you can't have all the passive past life feats. So the paladin passive past life for instance could be a combination of 5% healing amp and the proposed epic bonus in the OP, stackable up to 3 times. If one wanted to, one could visit a "fatespinner" type NPC to swap these twists between quests. You would have access to all your past lives, just not all at the same time.

The main issue with adding even more bonuses to existing past lives is that without a cap on how many you can have, it widens the gap too far between those with the past lives and those without. Turbine just released an entire xpac which seems devoted to catching up new players (gearwise). The idea in the OP, while it would be great for vet players, could push new players away.

[V_mad_jester_V]

Yes, lets also give them free +2 tomes at level7!

you already get free +2 tomes, if you were unlucky enough to not find a +3 or any +2's at that you can have all +2's by 6th life for free.

[Xezrak]

/not signed, this would create massive power creep. If you want more people to tr reduce the amount of xp you need for 3rd life. I am grinding out my 5th life now and I really don't want to TR again, I am so bored of the lower level quests.