Remove requirements of Con21 from Epic Toughness

[Sgt_Hart]

I forgot to respond to this comment.

Fine! Remove the Con requirement. But . . . Just like in PnP 3rd edition D&D lower the hit point bonus to +30.

What?! That makes it just as good as toughness which gives +27? Hmm, I wonder if that was the reason why the original 3rd edition didn't put any form of requirement on it . . . . not even toughness . . . hmm . . . .

Of course, if you want the PnP version "Epic" toughness, just take toughness again. You know you want to . . .

Honestly, I think the requirement suits.

That said, its very much not SRD rules. SRD is my first stop when checking how out-of-whack the DDO rules are. Like or hate that choice of mine.. I'll be sure to mail you a nice little postcard when your opinion of my research methods, matters to me.

Moving on. I'm fine with the requirement, Afterall, if toughness is that insanely important to your character.. you can burn the epic feats to take heroic toughness, which is math-wise inferior, but still better than a bucket of lukewarm water.

Now, with all that said, Hill your attitude(The hell?). Hint: The bit in red suggests my confusion, skepticism, and disbelief that the SRD has it working as intended.

As much as I'd like to agree.. I can't.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicToughness No Prerequisites. As in none.. not even having toughness(The hell?). Apparently DDO is doing it wrong.

I don't expect rocket science.. but if your of a mind to yell at me, at least make sure I'm not on your side first.

[Xynot2]

DDO is LOOSELY based on 3.5

DDO sets it how it works for a video game/mmo

I've seen people who would be canned from endgame stuff for low HP survive better than the ones with high XP.

It's all about the build. I see *Con isnt a dump stat* and I agree... sometimes, it's an unnecessary stat. You want more con, sacrifice something. That 1800 HP Barbarian did. Cant you see he cant hit very hard? That Turtle tank sacrificed DPS/HP for AC. And so on through the classes. Every toon is not supposed to have every stat. Period. Every toon is not supposed to be able to do everything. This isn't WoW and I hope it never is.

[dragonofsteel2]

Being condescending is not a way to bring people to your side.

Being cookie cutter is exactly the reason to be against your idea. It places less distinction between classes and races. Your idea makes thing MORE cookie cutter. Everyone having 600+ HP. In this line of thinking, Wiz/Cleric should get the same SP as FvS/Sorc and everyone should have access to 70AC. And everyone should have access to trapping abilities. It's already bad enough that Clerics are so nerfed that no one wants to play one and you have to be a self healer to play in a group anymore. No need to compound the problem with this.

I applaud you trying to get what you can for your toon but I boo you for berating the first person that disagreed with the idea.

/not signed.

No idea how was being condescending, but hey guess I was.. Sure p go believing it does not cookie cutter builds you will see in end game. The reality is if your build does not live because they do not have the tools to cut it, you will "A" not run that level or "B" make the class or race that can handle the damage being taken. This is my view how it works, you might disagree and think your thoughts are more in line. The reality is simple if take class has 400hp and is one shoted all the time and give him no tools to make up the Hp that build become useless. If you have a build that has 1000hp and give more tools to get addtional hp that toon becomes more useiful. Oh wait since already way above all other toons in Hp he might not even need this feat even though he can take it.

I am strong believer if all you do is seperate the differinces between classes all you will get is couple classes that thrive while the rest get thrown in the waste basket. Reality video games fights are made for the mid/maxer. Ac is always but curve with it's use. Though hp never put on a curve hmmm. This by making it king in the video game realm. All games allow you to get more hp and deal more damage. If they did not no one would play. So your arguement that shuting out one class/race from more hp or damage is not valid to me. Because to me all video games or mmo come down to this to simple facts. Why is simple, people like seeing there tough charcter doing lots of damage. (It sales) So you telling me be limiting certain builds to have less and less hp does not make the game more cookie cutter, I can not and will not believe. Reality it just makes thoose builds useless in that content so people will stray from them.

Though the angle you looking at this I think is the actual differences in classes/races. From that angle you would be right. Though we comparing apples and oranges. I am looking at the pratical side and you looking at the role playing side. I do not and never will play games for that side. I looking at the functional side of playing end game.

Last thing just going on making my agruement about hp into ac and all that other things you do is ridiculous. I was talking Hp not making all toons the same. Keep on my thoughts not what you read into it. I never would make the classes identical, but talking option away from people is never good. Beside my caster will have 700 to 800hp when done with him. Why simple things hit for 200 plus on epic elite. Ac takes way to much gear and takes away from my ablity to fit in my caster items. So my caster will not be a drow, taking that option away from me, it sad in my veiw. Though sure some wizards that drow will figure out get that many hp, but I am a sorc, that does not play WF because Easy button. Do I ask them to nerf hmm no, I just challenge myself.

[Xynot2]

I am strong believer if all you do is seperate the differinces between classes all you will get is couple classes that thrive while the rest get thrown in the waste basket.

This is where the disagreement begins. I know min/max of every class. Some throw in a couple monk or rogue levels for evasion so they dont need as many HP. And there are more ways around the con issue. min/maxers play what they want because that's what they have fun with. Most I have met look at something like low con as a challenge which in turn makes it all the more fun for them. Both in how to get more HP and the challenge of running a low HP toon. And if everyone wasn't so set on self healing and that clerics shouldn't be used in the traditional role of HP babysitters ( I know they do more but ...) Then a Min/max Cleric would be able to handle having a well built low HP toon in the group. I speak from experience because I have solo healed hard shroud without using pots, I have healed Epic quest without issue. Granted, I would be concerned about doing that in an eEpic, but wouldn't avoid it.

/still not signed.

[Jay203]

If everyone could take it then content would be balanced around everyone taking it and everyone would HAVE to take it, or be gimp. All of a sudden you go from 2 epic feats down to 1.

food for thought

[Ravoc-DDO]

Change Epic Toughness from a flat 50HP into an upgrade of each level's HP die to d12.

[Thrudh]

Personally, I think that if you have a base 21 Constitution and are properly geared, you don't need this feat anyways.

This is the main problem I have with Epic Toughness... None of my characters who qualify for this feat have any interest or need to take it.

But a couple of my characters with hit point issues who would be interested in taking it are unable to take it.

[Aesop]

I forgot to respond to this comment.

Fine! Remove the Con requirement. But . . . Just like in PnP 3rd edition D&D lower the hit point bonus to +30.

What?! That makes it just as good as toughness which gives +27? Hmm, I wonder if that was the reason why the original 3rd edition didn't put any form of requirement on it . . . . not even toughness . . . hmm . . . .

Of course, if you want the PnP version "Epic" toughness, just take toughness again. You know you want to . . .

just to point this out. Toughness in 3.5 is only 3hp not 3+1per level. So really Epic toughness was the equivalent of 10 Toughness Feats. If anything Epic Toughness should be something like 200hp.

If you really want to limit who takes Epic Toughness make it based on Fortitude Save instead.

Make the requirement a Base Fortitude Save of 10... though Pure rogues are pretty sol at that point. Maybe let Great Fortitude and other Feat based bonuses count.

Then add 10 PRR to Epic Fortitude and maybe it would be worth a Feat.

Aesop


edit: oh wait just read Epic Toughness and it is only 20hp not 30. So its only 6.66 toughnesses... toughnessi?

[Aesop]

Lot's of people talking about diversity of builds... which would be great if there was a replacement for HP that had similar requirements.

Like

EPIC DODGE
Prerequisite: 23 Dexterity and Evasion
Increase Dodge Bonus by 5%. Unarmored Dodge Maximum is increased 10%.



Additionally, while in Ocean Stance Max Unarmored Dodge Bonus increases by 2-5% (based on tier)

Aesop

[Raist1280]

Responses inline, in blue.

I am strong believer if all you do is seperate the differinces between classes all you will get is couple classes that thrive while the rest get thrown in the waste basket. Reality video games fights are made for the mid/maxer. (sic) Ac is always but curve with it's use. Though hp never put on a curve hmmm. This by making it king in the video game realm. All games allow you to get more hp and deal more damage. If they did not no one would play. So your arguement that shuting out one class/race from more hp or damage is not valid to me. Because to me all video games or mmo come down to this to simple facts. Why is simple, people like seeing there tough charcter doing lots of damage. (It sales) So you telling me be limiting certain builds to have less and less hp does not make the game more cookie cutter, I can not and will not believe. Reality it just makes thoose builds useless in that content so people will stray from them.

While see the point you are trying to make, I disagree wholeheartedly with most of it. You're right that most video games are made for (or at least with them in mind) min/maxers. However I don't agree that that automatically means if a particular race or class can't completely max out HP that they are going to be avoided. I also think you're backwards on the idea that removing a prerequisite for a feat makes the game less cookie-cutter. Hell, having the requirement doesn't either. Removing that requirement from the feat means that virtually all builds are going to incorporate that 1 feat, regardless of anything else. Want proof of that? How many builds, especially viable end-game builds, *DON'T* have the toughness feat? The reason Epic Toughness has a rather high prerequisite is exactly so that not everyone has it, so that it can, itself, be a point of diversity in builds.

Though the angle you looking at this I think is the actual differences in classes/races. From that angle you would be right. Though we comparing apples and oranges. I am looking at the pratical side and you looking at the role playing side. I do not and never will play games for that side. I looking at the functional side of playing end game.

In this, I feel sorry for you, I really do. I've been playing D&D for a long time (18ish years now), I've played purely from the practical side. I've played purely from the role-playing side. In the end the former is very cookie cutter, somethings work and other don't, and there is very little, if any, deviation - the latter is almost entirely diversity, rarely optimal, but allows for some extremely epic moments when you manage to pull off what would normally seem impossible. Now, I'm speaking here from almost 20 years of experience in the PnP game, not a video game/mmo, but the same theories apply. In DDO all of my toons are custom builds, I don't use other peoples builds (though I do tend to read up about new builds on the forums to get ideas sometimes), and I don't truly min/max. I used to have a light monk that could quite handily solo ANYTHING. However, she couldn't stun anything (WIS too low), I never got good with using the monk finishers, and the build I put together had ~160 HP at lv17. Yeah, 160 HP at lv17. Thats insanely low, so low in fact that I ended up HAVING to solo because I wasn't ever allowed in groups with my HP so low. And yet she never died, see I didn't need 1000HP like everyone else because I build a toon where everything she did healed her a little, sure +1 HP per attack doesn't seem like much, but on a dex-build monk in air stance... thats actually really fast healing. and then you add in the healing curse that a light monk can do. and you add in max healing amp on a human monk. and you can start to see how a very non-optimal build can be viable in end-game content. The whole point of getting away from the cookie cutter mentality is finding these unique and extremely different builds that *CAN* be just as viable in end game content. maybe they aren't the absolutely best, most optimized spec, but really, if thats what you want, then cookie cutter builds are exactly what you're gonna end up with, because there is only 1 absolute best build for a particular purpose, and once that gets found, those that want/need the "very best" will just copy the existing build. I find it far more fun to make a build based on a concept and see just how well it turns out. Most of the time, it doesn't last long, but sometimes you can end up really surprised.

Last thing just going on making my agruement about hp into ac and all that other things you do is ridiculous. I was talking Hp not making all toons the same. Keep on my thoughts not what you read into it. I never would make the classes identical, but talking option away from people is never good. Beside my caster will have 700 to 800hp when done with him. Why simple things hit for 200 plus on epic elite. Ac takes way to much gear and takes away from my ablity to fit in my caster items. So my caster will not be a drow, taking that option away from me, it sad in my veiw. Though sure some wizards that drow will figure out get that many hp, but I am a sorc, that does not play WF because Easy button. Do I ask them to nerf hmm no, I just challenge myself.

You're taking that option away from yourself. Your caster certainly can be a drow, but that involves a trade-off in that it reduces your CON, and thus, your HP. Thats a trade you're not willing to make, which is fine, but that doesn't mean that the rules should just be different. By that mentality why not just change the Drow race to *NOT* have the -2 CON? I mean, that would allow a lot more people to playt dorw, since a lot of people stay way from it because of the lowered CON, right?
I'm sure that if we made such a small concession as that it wouldn't make the game more cookie cutter, after all, its not like *most* casters would jump on being drow for the bonus to INT & CHA... After all, divine casters really care more about WIS anyway. It isn't about taking options away, it's about there being practical consequences (positive as well as negative) to each option. A Drow takes -2 CON at creation, so they probably won't be in a good position at level 21 (or 24) to take epic toughness. If the build you're putting together absolutely must have that feat, maybe you can make it work without gimping the character too bad, if not, either pick a different race or change your build so it doesn't need that feat. Its just my $0.02, but Drow is virtually never the optimal race for a build anyhow... (and no, that doesn't stop me from using them in my builds)

[Talias006]

Responses inline, in blue.

Please choose a more readable color to note your remarks, I honestly tried to read it but it's just too difficult.
Blue is downright nasty on the eyes when viewed on a black background.
Might I recommend Deep Sky Blue?

[EvilI]

If everyone could take it then content would be balanced around everyone taking it and everyone would HAVE to take it, or be gimp. All of a sudden you go from 2 epic feats down to 1.

I disagree. In fact rather few characters would benefit more from 50hp than from another epic feat. Ast it stands, the only characters I have that will be able to take this feat are my sorcerer and wizard. Does that sound right?

PS. Neither of them will take it, as other feats are more useful to them. D.S.

[Feithlin]

It's not that hard to meet the requirement. Just put a few level ups in Con (16 base + 3 tome + 2 levels = 21) and you're fine. Whose character can't have 2 points less in an attribute? Casters probably, but they have a high Con and have other feats to take anyway. Otherwise, nobody will gimp his toon if he has 48 Str instead of 50...

[Nephilia]

/not signed
The requirement doesn't seems too high to me.

Even more on a toon with 3 toughness (a tank, a monk etc) epic toughness give u more life than 2 regular toughness feats.
It free u 2 feat slot in practice.

[JOTMON]

It's not that hard to meet the requirement. Just put a few level ups in Con (16 base + 3 tome + 2 levels = 21) and you're fine. Whose character can't have 2 points less in an attribute? Casters probably, but they have a high Con and have other feats to take anyway. Otherwise, nobody will gimp his toon if he has 48 Str instead of 50...

It is more difficult than you are portraying, most races start at base 8.

On a 32 point for most races getting 16 Con costs 10 skill points leaves you with 22 points to distribute.

The Elf/Drow start at base 6 CON so to get CON 16 costs 16 points leaving you with 16 points for all your other stats.

WF/Dwarf have it easy since they start at base 10 and can get to 16 with 6 points.

/not signed
The requirement doesn't seems too high to me.

Even more on a toon with 3 toughness (a tank, a monk etc) epic toughness give u more life than 2 regular toughness feats.
It free u 2 feat slot in practice.

The current Tanks already have enough feats, 1,000+ hitpoints and Con21+, so this is meaningless to them.
They are already swapping a toughness for epic tougness

Feat tight classes cant afford more than 1 toughness before epics.

Its the squishy classes that could use the feat and generally cant access it





How many Elf/Drow tanks are there in DDO....

Most Elf/Drow cannot achieve Base Con21 without gimping... it is a form of Racial prejudice.
Epic levels are supposed to bring classes closer to balanced equality.

[Goregnash]

I agree with 19 con being a more reasonable requirement.

This.

[Habreno]

please keep the requirement of 21con. The difference between the classes is an important fun factor in this game. Makes no sense to give everyone 800+ hp. If you are playing a low hp toon, dont rush in fight and play your role.

Regards Bo.
PS.: I find it already strange that I met a 1000+hp pure cleric ...

That Cleric may well have been me, if it was on Argonessen.



BUT.


To the point of the thread: CON requirement is 100% fine. I support it entirely since it means it's not another cookie-cutter feat.