Remove requirements of Con21 from Epic Toughness

[JOTMON]

Epic toughness requires Toughness and Con of 21.

For squisher races like Elf/Drow and classes that have a harder time getting Con21 this becomes nearly unachieveable without gimping.

These are the classes that need +50HP at epic levels, not the 1200HP Barbarian and fighters.

[ShadowFlash]

For those very reason listed
/not signed

I like any changes that adds further distinctions between racial choices. If certain races are lacking, then they should be addressed seperately rather than a global "everyone gets it" approach.

ShadowFlash

[Jsbeer]

This idea sounds okay - perhaps CON 19 (which isn't so bad - 16 base CON and a +3 Tome). Otherwise this is an even bigger indirect nerf for the -2 CON races such as Drow and Elf which to put it very mildly, are not exactly OP right now....

[djl]

I agree with 19 con being a more reasonable requirement.

[dragonofsteel2]

For those very reason listed
/not signed

I like any changes that adds further distinctions between racial choices. If certain races are lacking, then they should be addressed seperately rather than a global "everyone gets it" approach.

ShadowFlash

Your right we should just put high requirments on all feats so everyone has to be the cookie cutter builds. Take away insentive to try different builds by placing cookie cutter min/max as requirement to get advancements. All these requirments every do make classes or races more the only way to go.. because with the increasing damage you take in levels without the hp you will die to fast. Woot more cookie cutter builds less choose.

Reality the only places the game makes any difference is Hit points, elfs really dont get advantage for making great light armor or be faster on foot. Do racial benifits go beyond HP in this game? I think not. At least the ones that really matter in end game. So in turn if only apply one of the racial benifits in game, it makes that race supreme and all other lacking. If going to apply racial benifits give all races there benfits not just a select few. Dex build been hack to peices with the armor class changes.

Take away all feat requirments for epic feats you only get two not like op taking any them. All the feat requirments do is make hard for feat strave classes to attain them. Giving advantages to classes that are not feat strave more and more. Second option would be giving all classes same amount of feats and just making some feats class required. This at least gives the player the option when add more feats in the game. More chooses please stop limiting the chooses in this game.

[Sgt_Hart]

For those very reason listed
/not signed

I like any changes that adds further distinctions between racial choices. If certain races are lacking, then they should be addressed seperately rather than a global "everyone gets it" approach.

ShadowFlash

As much as I'd like to agree.. I can't.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicToughness No Prerequisites. As in none.. not even having toughness(The hell?). Apparently DDO is doing it wrong.

[countfitz]

Nah. 20. 20 is a nice round number. 19 is too low, 21 is just a bit too high. 20 seems both reasonable and round.

A good cuttoff number for an epic number.

Anyway.

/signed to my idea.

[BoBach]

please keep the requirement of 21con. The difference between the classes is an important fun factor in this game. Makes no sense to give everyone 800+ hp. If you are playing a low hp toon, dont rush in fight and play your role.

Regards Bo.
PS.: I find it already strange that I met a 1000+hp pure cleric ...

[Jsbeer]

please keep the requirement of 21con. The difference between the classes is an important fun factor in this game. Makes no sense to give everyone 800+ hp. If you are playing a low hp toon, dont rush in fight and play your role.

Regards Bo.
PS.: I find it already strange that I met a 1000+hp pure cleric ...

If you want to keep difference between classes then perhaps pre-requisites could be:

Toughness
and 19 CON (Barbs/Fighters/Ranger/Paladins/Monks)
or 21 CON (Other classes)


Vague justification being that this is indicative of the much greater effort needed for a non-melee class, but meh.....

[CaptainSpacePony]

Perhaps a way to address it would be a deviation from base. Elves have a base 6, humans 8, and dworfs 10. If 21 is required for dworf, then 19 for human and 17 for elf would be a way to make it equally accessible for all races.

[ShadowFlash]

Your right we should just put high requirments on all feats so everyone has to be the cookie cutter builds.....

See, I look at this differently I guess...If the requirements are reduced, it would result in MORE cookie cutter builds...everyone would NEED to take epic toughness. And for fair disclaimer, one of my wife's toon is a 1 rogue/11 ranger/8 bard ELF AA...about as squishy as you can get...and mine are all dwarves who "could" qualify for the feat if I wanted...so it's not like we min/max to oblivion or anything. Combat archery requires 21 dex as well, and there have been several requests to reduce this as well....why? to promote no-build-choice cookie-cutter feat selection...

I remain /not signed...haven't heard a good reason to change my mind, or how it would benefit the game on a whole

[wax_on_wax_off]

/not signed

For the reasons Shadowflash listed.

If everyone could take it then content would be balanced around everyone taking it and everyone would HAVE to take it, or be gimp. All of a sudden you go from 2 epic feats down to 1.

Epic levels have already done enough for squishy characters with the straight +50 HP from epic levels and +5 from toughness progression, this is plenty and doesn't cost anything and is good.

[Saravis]

I remain /not signed...haven't heard a good reason to change my mind, or how it would benefit the game on a whole

I'm not "/signing" or "/not signing"

But a possible good reason for having an issue with the con requirement is,
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=376117
The way this game has a tendency to shift build expectations up, it won't be long before you'll run into a lot of "brick wall" builds (hard to take down, but completely and utterly useless), reasoning that they had to boost their HP up because they were told that they didn't have enough for xyz raid.

[Vordax]

For those very reason listed
/not signed

I like any changes that adds further distinctions between racial choices. If certain races are lacking, then they should be addressed seperately rather than a global "everyone gets it" approach.

ShadowFlash

Whats sort of odd, the only 2 characters I have that qualify for this feat are my casters, and I would never waste a feat on it anyways.

[Munkenmo]

the only change needed to epic toughness is to make the barbarian past life beserkers fury also count as an alternative pre req to the toughness feat

[Hilltrot]

I don't want to have to take Epic Toughness, like I currently have to take Toughness on every last one of my characters. Especially my elves.

You lower that Con to something like a 19, anyone with a +3 tome will be able to reach it. Especially Dwarves and Warforged. They won't even have to break a sweat. Before you know it, every stupid and I mean stupid person on the servers will collectively demand that anyone who joins their party have *that* feat. They'll say, "Elves can do it, all you have to do is spend 16 points in Con in character generation!"

Then some lifeless idiot and I mean something far worse will come on the forums and explain to us "dumb people" how his 6 Con Elf got 3,000 hit points. I'm too "dumb" to explain all the details of how he will do this but I'm pretty sure it will involve your character's mouth permanently bonded to and sucking on the nipple of a well-endowed Yugoloth.

Then all the I'll-be-banned-if-I-say-here eleven-star posters will collectively slap this lifeless idiot's back and proclaim that you should only be able to play elf if you quit your meaningful job, tell your wife to go you-know-where, only play DDO, join a level 80 guild or higher, and do everything the lifeless idiot told you to do. Or they'll allow you to take Epic Toughness instead.

I'm probably exaggerating as nothing like this has ever happened before. . . .

But just in case it has . . . let's keep the requirement at 21.

In fact, let's bump it up to 27.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I don't want to have to take Epic Toughness, like I currently have to take Toughness on every last one of my characters. Especially my elves.

You lower that Con to something like a 19, anyone with a +3 tome will be able to reach it. Especially Dwarves and Warforged. They won't even have to break a sweat. Before you know it, every stupid and I mean stupid person on the servers will collectively demand that anyone who joins their party have *that* feat. They'll say, "Elves can do it, all you have to do is spend 16 points in Con in character generation!"

Then some lifeless idiot and I mean something far worse will come on the forums and explain to us "dumb people" how his 6 Con Elf got 3,000 hit points. I'm too "dumb" to explain all the details of how he will do this but I'm pretty sure it will involve your character's mouth permanently bonded to and sucking on the nipple of a well-endowed Yugoloth.

Then all the I'll-be-banned-if-I-say-here eleven-star posters will collectively slap this lifeless idiot's back and proclaim that you should only be able to play elf if you quit your meaningful job, tell your wife to go you-know-where, only play DDO, join a level 80 guild or higher, and do everything the lifeless idiot told you to do. Or they'll allow you to take Epic Toughness instead.

I'm probably exaggerating as nothing like this has ever happened before. . . .

But just in case it has . . . let's keep the requirement at 21.

In fact, let's bump it up to 27.

Maybe an exaggeration but closer to reality than many would care to admit.

It's good that HP/SP is visible as more information is always good but it's not without it's costs.

[Talias006]

please keep the requirement of 21con. The difference between the classes is an important fun factor in this game. Makes no sense to give everyone 800+ hp. If you are playing a low hp toon, dont rush in fight and play your role.

Regards Bo.
PS.: I find it already strange that I met a 1000+hp pure cleric ...

I understand the wanting to keep the prerequisite of 21 CON.

But classes in general do not make it easier to reach 21 CON, racial attributes account for much of the discrepancy.

Except for Barb, but that's almost a given a Barb will have extreme CON.
Any other classes give bonuses to CON?

As it stands now if you want to use Epic Toughness as an Elf or Drow your best bet is to LR yourself to start with 16 CON, use 2 level ups to boost it to 18 and a +3 Tome to further increase to 21.
This process uses 16 of your build points for CON alone, then you get to distribute to the other attributes you need.
It's alright if you're on a 34-36 point character, but can be very restrictive on even a 32 point, let alone a 28 point.

Since most of the relative power of Epics comes from Destinies, I don't see the cause for concern of reducing the CON requirement for Epic Toughness.
It's not like they have a requirement to take Heroic Toughness.

[HatsuharuZ]

Personally, I think that if you have a base 21 Constitution and are properly geared, you don't need this feat anyways.

[Xynot2]

Your right we should just put high requirments on all feats so everyone has to be the cookie cutter builds. Take away insentive to try different builds by placing cookie cutter min/max as requirement to get advancements. All these requirments every do make classes or races more the only way to go.. because with the increasing damage you take in levels without the hp you will die to fast. Woot more cookie cutter builds less choose.

Being condescending is not a way to bring people to your side.

Being cookie cutter is exactly the reason to be against your idea. It places less distinction between classes and races. Your idea makes thing MORE cookie cutter. Everyone having 600+ HP. In this line of thinking, Wiz/Cleric should get the same SP as FvS/Sorc and everyone should have access to 70AC. And everyone should have access to trapping abilities. It's already bad enough that Clerics are so nerfed that no one wants to play one and you have to be a self healer to play in a group anymore. No need to compound the problem with this.

I applaud you trying to get what you can for your toon but I boo you for berating the first person that disagreed with the idea.

/not signed.