Devs: Why is it always a priority to hurt players, and not to help them?

[Feralthyrtiaq]

is all the attention hungry princesses that post some achievement or quick aquisition of xp or loot ending up in nerfs...

EG

"All Destinies Capped at 5"

"I soloed such and such with xyz toon"

"Here's the xyz build I soloed such and such with"

"I just got all this awesome (insert w/e). Is this WAI?" Achievement

"My pet is doing ALOT of damage. Is this WAI?"


Bottom Line...

KEEP YOUR S TO YOURSELF....IT ONLY ENDS UP ELFING THE REST OF US

[Ganolyn]

You have consider you could not have asked for a better foundation to an MMO then.. Dungeon and Dragons, I mean really, D&D, the original iconic role playing game, now in MMO format.

To be honest, I would have assumed this would have rivaled WoW if not crushed it on the fact that is was Dungeons and Dragons, given how long standing and vast the consumer base for such an item is. It would have taken effort to kill such a creation, or made anything less then a stellar success from it.

I kid you not when I say DDO could have been, bar none, the best MMO that was ever made.

If they had just made the effort to offer multiple worlds (Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Eberron etc...) at the outset, I think it would have crushed WoW. Think of it: Each server a different universe with its own flavor and story line. Hard on the graphical artists I know, but quest design could have been simplified by using the same dungeons (with a few tweaks) with a different skin for each world.

[HAL]

You have consider you could not have asked for a better foundation to an MMO then.. Dungeon and Dragons, I mean really, D&D, the original iconic role playing game, now in MMO format.

To be honest, I would have assumed this would have rivaled WoW if not crushed it on the fact that is was Dungeons and Dragons, given how long standing and vast the consumer base for such an item is. It would have taken effort to kill such a creation, or made anything less then a stellar success from it.

I kid you not when I say DDO could have been, bar none, the best MMO that was ever made.

While you are correct that the popularity of the IP should have made DDO a game that a huge number of gamers would want to play, what you have to understand is that it could have NEVER rivalled WoW. The reason is because WoW doesn't just appeal to gamers. WoW is dissed as being too easy because Blizzard realized that to have a truly World-Popular game it had to appeal to people who had never played a video game before (nevermind a TTRPG).

DDO could never have been that game because ALL of the D&D rules sets are way too complicated for people who have never played a TTRPG before. Yes, there are rules sets that are less complicated than others. But they are still too complicated for non-gamers.

So DDO started as trying to be a literal translation of TT to MMO. Only those who could grasp the intricacies of the DDO 3.5 rules set stuck with the game in the beginning. That's probably the main reason it started to fail. Other MMO players heard "MMO" and didn't understand that it would be D&D TT rules and the word spread of how brutally hard the game was. This wasn't the fault of the game creators. They were following the concept of what the game was intended to be.

[Xynot2]

I agree, but I don't think this even hits the heart of the matter.

I've been reading the forums for a very long time, and have been posting almost as much. The problem is, largely, that there are a massive number of forumites who are simply self-aborbed and completely clueless. What they think is crucial and of utmost importance isn't. Not even close. And what they think is relatively harmless and beneficial to them - also isn't. It's gamebreaking and devastating to anyone who, say, doesn't like running challenges and wants to find a group for a linear quest.

I'm not going to start belittling people, but unlike Thrudh and eonfreon, I find this thread to be completely consistent with the posting habits of the thread creator.

You're exactly right.

[Eladiun]

Let me be a little more clear. Your kind of posts get zero action from devs.

Edit: meh, not worth the effort.

@seph What out I think someone has a crush on you.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Edit: meh, not worth the effort.

That's a shame, it was a nice post.

[LafoMamone]

No.. it's just the hottest example at the moment. Seriously... if you're working on the engine of your car and it comes to your attention that the tires need rotating, are you gonna stop what you're doing to rotate the tires? Are you going to immediately tell the person that brought it to your attention what your game plan is? And if they whine that you are ignoring them or demand a response from you, are you going to be more likely to tell them?

You know what your response will be... come on... say it..... SAY IT!


*SOON*

What a wonderful hyperbole. Amusing, silly, and probably only comparable to the subject at hand while tripping on acid.

The challenge XP is merely the straw that broke the camel's back. I wonder how they find the time to fix all the unintended benefits when such a huge, imaginary "engine" clearly takes precedence?

[Anihsod]

Having had several friends go from 20 to 25 in two days and the accompanying ED levels .. it's hardly rational to claim that the exp for quests is too low.

My first 4 toons I was looking forward to LVLing them to cap and raiding with them. My subsequent toons ( and the TR's ) I look forward to PLAYING them and their exp / lvls are simply a byproduct of playing them.

[Xynot2]

What a wonderful hyperbole. Amusing, silly, and probably only comparable to the subject at hand while tripping on acid.

The challenge XP is merely the straw that broke the camel's back. I wonder how they find the time to fix all the unintended benefits when such a huge, imaginary "engine" clearly takes precedence?

Acid? Where?

[kingfisher]

@seph

The day that ddo went ptp the devs job changed dramatically. they are not responsible for new content, features, fun, etc now; now they are earners. their job is to keep players banging their heads against the wall day after day, getting frustrated, spending money at the ddo store for help, cheats, convenience items, packs, space, boosts, anything and everything that will lessen the grind and increase the fun. in order for them to encourage these purchases they have to eliminate each and every place inside the game where the players have an advantage over the rest of the world. any quest that booms higher xp/min than its worth will get nerfed. classes on top will get nerfed. gear that trivializes content will get nerfed. before the change to ptp, all the devs cared about was us being happy cause we were all already spending as much as we could each month. now all they care about is us spending money, period. there is no limit to what you can spend per month. the more roadblocks they throw up, the more chances of cheap fixes in the store earning them big money, on top of what they are already counting on their PnL. its greed, capitalism, sound economics, good business strategy, shady dealings, whatever you want to call it - its the way it is now. they want the game easy, but not quick. they sell shortcuts to avoid boredom that they put in the game purposefully. this is their right of course, but it should be noted by the players. stop acting surprised, this is their business model. its no longer the devs busting ass to make a good game to keep their player base around; now its the devs busting ass to keep the game complicated, grindy, always changing, and most importantly to keep players buying the options in the store that lessen the roadblocks they continue to throw up.

the challenge xp nerfs fits right in with the other nerfs they have throw down the pipe recently as well as the new random loot models, the massive ED grind, the re-leveling to 25 every TR, the streak counters, etc. no surprises here, just lameness.

its us vs them now so keep quite when you find those little pockets of win in there. you brag about it on the forums, it will get nerfed.

[Ungood]

While you are correct that the popularity of the IP should have made DDO a game that a huge number of gamers would want to play, what you have to understand is that it could have NEVER rivalled WoW. The reason is because WoW doesn't just appeal to gamers. WoW is dissed as being too easy because Blizzard realized that to have a truly World-Popular game it had to appeal to people who had never played a video game before (nevermind a TTRPG).

Ummm, I have to totally disagree with you here, all games are designed to appeal to gamers, as people first have to want to play games, the difficulty is then irrelevant.

However I believe that WoW's hallmark success is owed in a great part to the foundation of the Warcraft battle games, which had and I believe still has, a solid following as far as war games goes, in fact, (which I may be wrong here) it seems every stratagem war game after Warcraft seems to follow the Warcraft pattern of army building.

Which is why I believe it appealed to people outside the typical MMO world, but gamers none the less.

DDO could never have been that game because ALL of the D&D rules sets are way too complicated for people who have never played a TTRPG before. Yes, there are rules sets that are less complicated than others. But they are still too complicated for non-gamers.

To say that Dungeon and Dragons has a massive world wide fan base would be a gross under statement.

To say it could appeal to Millions of players world wide would not even touch the depth of the fan base that Dungeon and Dragons has established since it's foundation in the 1970's.

However, lets be honest here, even at 6 years old DDO comes across as a half done game, besieged by bugs and other issues that older games suffer though, so it comes across as an old game that was left half done.

Yes it could be an amazing game, it could be a game that everyone points to and says "Now that is Dungeons and Dragons as it should be" but, DDO is not that, but it could be.

That I believe is what infuriates me the most, is that there is this vast well of amazing potential being filled with crud. DDO could be this shooting star in the MMO world, but, it's just.. not.

All it's know for right now, and sadly is only real claim to fame, is its "Free to Play" micro-transation plan that saved what should never have been a dying game.

[Chai]

...

[Chai]

I kid you not when I say DDO could have been, bar none, the best MMO that was ever made.

DDO is currently the best MMO ever made.

This is not something that can be quantitatively measured. Sure WOW has elevendy twelve bajillion subscribers. They likely make the most money. They likely have the largest market share. They likely beat DDO in every quantitative aspect in the industry. They do not have the better game however. They have the better marketing. THey are better at drawing people in and getting them addicted quickly. Blizzard had to make a game that people who did not have exposure to RPGs understood. The major part of their WOW fanbase in the beginning came from Warcraft - their own game.

Yeah, yeah, I know...tell us that DDO is not the best MMO that was ever made. Tell us that its more bug laden than most other MMOs (false). Inform us how Blizzard crushes DDO statistically (quantitatively but not qualitatively). Tell us how game play is no longer enjoyable (most people who say this over the years are still here). Tell us the devs dont have a clue and continue to plague the game with all the downward issues that pull the fun out of the game (yet the people who claim this continue to show up on a daily basis). Because I know after telling us this, you will tab back into the game and continue playing more DDO. Actions speak louder than words. You know that qualitatively, this game is miles ahead of the other contenders. Thats why youre still here playing, after delivering this games eulogy time and again, you dont have the heart to bring it behind the barn and shoot it. Those people who do go to other games come back soon enough, because they see that other games have the same issues this one does, but lack the same play quality and available options.

[Ungood]

DDO is currently the best MMO ever made.

Chai, no, it's not. You can believe whatever you like. but, it's not. It's decent. I'll give you that. But it's mostly "fair" at best.

It could be. Oh boy does it have potential to be downright amazing, I'll put that up. But as it stands, it's unfinished, rough in the sense that even the basic core base classes are incomplete, entire parts of it are totally hackneyed, and it suffers a bug infestation.

The fact that updates are this yoyo comedy routine of seeing what things they stealth break while trying to "fix" things is as much an entertainment in it's own right as it is an annoyance.

Actions speak louder than words. You know that qualitatively, this game is miles ahead of the other contenders. Thats why youre still here playing, after delivering this games eulogy time and again, you dont have the heart to bring it behind the barn and shoot it. Those people who do go to other games come back soon enough, because they see that other games have the same issues this one does, but lack the same play quality and available options.

While I must say it's enjoyable that you have posted this, it is also the predictable response you have tossed up. Allow me to interject some logic into your little belief stricture.

Did you ever pause to think that maybe many of us play because DDO it is "Dungeons and Dragons" and we are fanboys of that game?

I mean, there is a distinct fan base connected to that brand name, just in case you missed that. Also, some of us are biding our time as well, we are looking for something that strikes our fancy. Just because there are other, and I will say, better, mmo's out there, that does not mean that they are what everyone is looking for.

Case in point, there tends to be a large trend of Realms vs Realms PVP based MMO's. I am not into PvP. It is just not my thing. As such there are quite a few MMO that do not appeal to me, even if they seem to something I would otherwise enjoy.

Does that means I think DDO is better then say Aion? Nope. simply put, Aion does not appeal to me due to the nature of the game style. If I enjoyed that kind of game of PvP, I'd be playing Aion right now as opposed to DDO. No question at all in my mind on that issue.

As for players staying around even in a dying game, I am almost sure that there were hold outs in SWG playing till the day the servers closed, so, people holding out, is not indicative that the game is great. Case in point, Age of Conan is still kicking after a very rocky and near crushing start.

Now, Is it really as Quality and as you make it out to be? Not really, this game scores around around a 7.7 MMORPG (which impressed me to be honest) due to the fun of the game and it's qualitative factors, WoW on the other hand scores around a 9.2 consistently from inception and each expansion to date. Which means, it is a better game overall.

But, again, just because it is a better game, does not mean it appeals to everyone, case in point, I have no desire to play a Starwars game, even if it is a better game then DDO. Just as I have no urge to play WoW because it is a Realms Vs Realms PvP game.

Simply because players have not found a better outlet or something that they feel is more suited for their game style, does not mean they love this game for all it's worth.or that this is the best game ever made. Some players enjoy PvE almost exclusively and DDO does cater to that market more so then many other games coming out now. Does it make it "The best game ever" nope, not even close.

In my case, I see where the game could be so much better then it is, yet, it is not. It is rather infuriating and annoying to say the least.

But by all means, if you think this is the best game ever made, the question might be, why are you posting on the forums as opposed to playing?

[fatherpirate]

Reading all this reminds me of that spider killing mission in harbor
Epic waste of time..for a few xp and fewer gold coins.

also dead girl out in house J
Epic waste of time with little to show for it.

[HAL]

Ummm, I have to totally disagree with you here, all games are designed to appeal to gamers, as people first have to want to play games, the difficulty is then irrelevant.

All gamers play games, but all people do not play games. Therefore the set of all people is greater than the set of all gamers. People who do not normally play games can be drawn by their friends into playing games if the game is fun/easy enough. See Facebook...

The above is why WoW wins.

[Chai]

But by all means, if you think this is the best game ever made, the question might be, why are you posting on the forums as opposed to playing?

Because Im at work.

You continue to post these scathing reviews of this game, then continue to log in and play on a daily basis. Actions do speak louder than words, so while you may think you are interjecting logic into my belief system through denying what I say, each time you post a rant on the forums about how much this game sucks, then your next action is to tab back in and play more DDO, thats my logic, being interjected into your little belief system.

There are quite a few others who have posted repeated negative things about this game after every major change, but then they show their real colors by hanging around over that same period of time. Many have been doing this for 6+ years now - there were even claims by players who still post today this game wouldnt make it 6 months past release, and yet, here we are. They didnt find another game to play or hobby to use their time on in a more enjoyable way in 6 years? Please. The "im never giving turbine another red cent" crowd had me convinced for a bit that they would play free and not put any more money into the system, right up to and until epic destinies were introduced, when a complete 180 happened and they couldnt give their money to Turbine fast enough. /insert random Futurama "shut up and take my money" meme here.

Continuing to play the game or a long period of time is indication enough, regardless of temperature of our posts, of what our real feelings toward the long term situation are. We may have specific things we are irritated with, but as a whole, our opinion of this game really isnt as bad as our posts indicate, because the fact that we are still here says otherwise.

[Feithlin]

There are quite a few others who have posted repeated negative things about this game after every major change, but then they show their real colors by hanging around over that same period of time. Many have been doing this for 6+ years now - there were even claims by players who still post today this game wouldnt make it 6 months past release, and yet, here we are. They didnt find another game to play or hobby to use their time on in a more enjoyable way in 6 years? Please. The "im never giving turbine another red cent" crowd had me convinced for a bit that they would play free and not put any more money into the system, right up to and until epic destinies were introduced, when a complete 180 happened and they couldnt give their money to Turbine fast enough. /insert random Futurama "shut up and take my money" meme here.

That's why any decent dev doesn't reply to inflammatory threads that arise, in all games, after an update, whining about how they were nerfed and the other one next to him is totally OP.

Flaming posts are like bursts of frustration. Then it calms down and ppl return to the game

[ninjadwarf_uk]

To reply to the thread title:

Because things that "help" players are generally bad for the health of the game as a whole, and often for turbines bottom line (lets not forget the game only exists so they can make money)

Most of the oh so dreadful bugs are not actually that bad for the majority of , no matter how much people might complain about them here.

[HAL]

Continuing to play the game or a long period of time is indication enough, regardless of temperature of our posts, of what our real feelings toward the long term situation are. We may have specific things we are irritated with, but as a whole, our opinion of this game really isnt as bad as our posts indicate, because the fact that we are still here says otherwise.

Just because someone complains about something, but continues to use it, doesn't mean that there really is nothing wrong with that thing. Or even that there is really nothing seriously wrong with that thing.

In the town I previously lived there was a restaurant that made buffalo wings. They weren't very good buffalo wings, but I really like buffalo wings and lived out in the middle of nowhere so if I wanted them I had to have these. The fact that I used to eat them every week doesn't mean they were really good. I would have taken another choice in a minute.

Now you could take my example and say "play another MMO, there are a ton" and there are certainly a large number to choose from. This game has a combination of traits that I prefer, just like I could have had a burger that would have technically been better than those buffalo wings, but it wouldn't have been chicken wings with the traits of "buffalo wings".

This game is on the tipping point. It has just enough of the things I want to offset the terrible bugginess. However all of the issues introduced with this expansion might just push it off balance. I'm very disappointed with all the bugs I hear about in the EDs. I was also disappointed when I realized that they introduced these nice shiny new ED toys but once I spend the time (levels) to acquire the ones I want I will be capped and unlikely to actually get to play with them.

But since my main is only level 21 and I don't level quickly Turbine has a little time to prove that all of these issues can be overcome. I hope that they do.