Pure Wizard Arcane Archer

[Loriac]

I'm looking into a 36pt build that tries to blend full-blooded arcane casting with some decent situational non-sp dps and that ideally is complemented by the shadowdancer ED (which I like for the instakill abilities if/when they are fixed as well as the evasion and synergy with an Int-based caster).

So on that basis, the build I'm trying to put together is as follows (apologies for the non-standard format, I haven't used the build planning tools):

Race: HElf
Class: Wizard 20, Palemaster. Also with the full Arcane archer enhancements.

Stats:
Str: 8 (+3Tome+7Item)=18
Dex: 16 (+3Tome+7Item+2Excep+2HElfDexEnhancments)=30
Con: 16 (+3Tome+7Item+2Excep)=28
Int: 18 (+3Tome+5Level ups+3WizIntIII+6Item+2Capstone+2LichForm+Epic Destiny Enhancements?)=39+ED Enhancements
Wis: 8 (+3Tome+5Item)=16
Cha: 8 (+3Tome+5Item)=16

The stats above are listed for level 20, and there would be additional bonuses that could be applied, but at this stage I'm looking broad brush to see if the concept is sound.

Feats (@20):
SF:Necro; GSF:Necro; Toughness; Maximise; Empower; Heighten; Quicken (for NEB healing); Extend(?); Point-blank shot; WF: Ranged; Rapid Shot; Manyshot; HElf Ranger Dilettante

Enhancements would be as follows:
Helf - Arcane fluidity II (3pts), Arcane Archer (14pts), ElvenDexII(6pts), Racial ToughnessII(3pts); Ranger Dili I [gives bow strength up to +4] (1pt)
Wiz - Capstone (2pts); PMIII (8pts); Shroud of the Lich (2pts); Improved Maximise I (2pts); Improved Empower I (2pts); Improved Heighten I (4pts); Energy of the Scholar III (6pts); Int III (12pts); Energy manipulation lines (15pts, see below)

For the energy manipulation lines, I was thinking either 3 pts in each of cold, fire, elec, acid, and force, or specialise in one for 9 pts (probably cold for Polar ray and Niac's biting cold).

Primary epic destiny: Shadowdancer, with Consume and Executioner's strike

Twists: (short term) - Magister +3 to Necro DCs; Dragonhide (+6 Fort); Impregnable mind (+6 Will) [Longer term, the light damage reduction in EA looks great for a palemaster, but thats a lot of grinding through the map].


My analysis of the above:

This build is essentially a standard pure PM wizard, which sacrifices spell penetration feats plus 2 other feats (probably spell focus, either in conjuration or enchantment) and 17APs (for arcane archer and arcane fluidity) in order to gain arcane archer abilities, primarily divine power'd manyshot when off the timer using imbued slaying arrows. The lost APs result in either additional lost spell pen and/or loss of nuke damage for some elemental lines.

One of the reasons for doing this is that the shadowdancer tree requires some weapon capability, and has its own instakills which may not be subject to SR in the same way that spells are (this is an unknown for me). Therefore, you're trading a bit of your own ability to land instakills (i.e. with reduced spell pen) but compensating with ED driven instakills of consume, shadow manipulation, and executioner's strike. Consume and shadow manipulation are driven off Int, so very high synergy there, whilst executioner's shot is driven off dex which is moderate on this build (but if it turns out to be a good ability, you could potentially shift some points from Int to Dex, although this is unlikely to be optimal).

The Cloak of Shadows ability looks great for a PM (120pts of light damage reduction), but I understand its currently bugged. This build assumes that all broken abilities are fixed by the devs at some point.

Imbue slayer arrows cause a cooldown of FoD (can anyone tell me how long this is?), but conversely offer very solid ranged dps during manyshot which is non-SP derived. This results in a choice of either using FoD as your main attack on trash, or using a bow (depending on mob resistances, see below).

This build is missing a couple of things: insightful reflexes would be nice, and I'd consider dropping extend or alternatively taking it at L21. Also missing is a slot to take a wizard past life feat (which I don't have yet) which again could either be taken by removing extend or by waiting til level 21 or 24.

Tactics:

Against non-SR trash, standard palemaster MO: wail, fod, shadowdancer instakills, enchantments based CC supplemented with heightened web

Against SR trash where its difficult to land fod: imbue slayer, ranged attacks (manyshot when available, always popping divine power first), PM nukes, sp based nukes depending on mob elemental vulnerability, heightened web as primary CC

Against boss mobs: Eladars, Niacs, Black dragon bolt in rotation, imbue slayer ranged attacks (again using many shot when available) and supplemented by sp-burning nukes as appropriate



Does this build seem ok, or am I trading in too much to obtain the (arguably minor) benefits from the arcane archer features?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Costs too much, gain too little. I saw a pure wizard AA in a quest and I had to provide the CC in that quest (on my rogue). He was added to my DNG list.

[Loriac]

Costs too much, gain too little. I saw a pure wizard AA in a quest and I had to provide the CC in that quest (on my rogue). He was added to my DNG list.

Just to clarify, as I'm trying to understand the underlying mechanics, was this because of spell penetration or enchantment dc? At best from what I can see, you'd be missing 2dc on enchantment if you don't take GSF: Enchantment. I'd be hesitant to take that on a standard pure palemaster tbh, but I wanted to make sure thats the criticism here.

This build does miss out on spell penetration feats however, and I could definitely see that as a problem vs. drow. This build loses about 6 spell penetration (4 from feats, 2 from enhancements), all other things being equal, which I could see as being a big problem.

One of the problems I find with my current L20 wizard is that he has no nuking stamina; therefore, if he can't instakill, he's out of luck solo. Thats one of the reasons I prefer playing either sorc (much better SLAs, and bigger sp pool that is optimised to nuking) or arti (sustained damaged via xbow and runearm, but lacking in cc).


EDIT: i had a quick look at your builds (possibly they're out of date) and it looks like you build your PMs with greater spell pen and +3 from enhancements, as distinct to the build above which doesn't take those. So I guess reading between the lines, you consider a loss of 6-7 spell pen to be build breaking for a wizard?

If so, that makes sense (I don't play my wizard much at high level, so not aware of how much spell pen is an issue for the class).


A couple of things spring to mind - for group CC, web has no SR check (although its no good vs spiders, which is probably an issue with the xpac content). For individual mob cc, there would be an option to switch to a shattermantle bow when not in dps / manyshot mode to soften up a mob before you hit it with cc. In fact, thinking about it, thats probably an effective strategy for this build regardless, i.e. use either shattermantle or cursespewing effects off the bow to supplement instakill spells.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Just to clarify, as I'm trying to understand the underlying mechanics, was this because of spell penetration or enchantment dc? At best from what I can see, you'd be missing 2dc on enchantment if you don't take GSF: Enchantment. I'd be hesitant to take that on a standard pure palemaster tbh, but I wanted to make sure thats the criticism here.

This build does miss out on spell penetration feats however, and I could definitely see that as a problem vs. drow. This build loses about 6 spell penetration (4 from feats, 2 from enhancements), all other things being equal, which I could see as being a big problem.

One of the problems I find with my current L20 wizard is that he has no nuking stamina; therefore, if he can't instakill, he's out of luck solo. Thats one of the reasons I prefer playing either sorc (much better SLAs, and bigger sp pool that is optimised to nuking) or arti (sustained damaged via xbow and runearm, but lacking in cc).

The criticism there was mostly that it was a horrible player, I was on my iPhone so didn't have time to elaborate.

For sustained nuking use your SLA's and your nukes (necrotic ray/chain lightning/delayed blast fireball/otilukes freezing sphere), dots (eledar's electric surge/niacs biting cold) and aoe dots (firewall/ice storm/acid rain). If you're having trouble sustaining it then get more spell points (usually with better gear), better spell point efficiency (-10% spell point cost is easier to get now) or turn maximise/empower off. Using an appropriate combination you'll end up with more DPS than what AA will bring.

If you want to do something when spell points run out then cast masters touch on a falchion, use a DP clicky and go to down, you'll still 50-75% of the time.

Many ways to expand your SP pool: Eardweller Lava, Vile Blasphemy (not exclusive), GS SP item, new SP set from U14, archmagi item, guild slotted SP (up to +80 SP), (epic) spellstoring ring, twisted talisman (can have an epic one and a non epic one), archivists necky etc.

[Loriac]

The criticism there was mostly that it was a horrible player, I was on my iPhone so didn't have time to elaborate.

For sustained nuking use your SLA's and your nukes (necrotic ray/chain lightning/delayed blast fireball/otilukes freezing sphere), dots (eledar's electric surge/niacs biting cold) and aoe dots (firewall/ice storm/acid rain). If you're having trouble sustaining it then get more spell points (usually with better gear), better spell point efficiency (-10% spell point cost is easier to get now) or turn maximise/empower off. Using an appropriate combination you'll end up with more DPS than what AA will bring.

If you want to do something when spell points run out then cast masters touch on a falchion, use a DP clicky and go to down, you'll still 50-75% of the time.

Many ways to expand your SP pool: Eardweller Lava, Vile Blasphemy (not exclusive), GS SP item, new SP set from U14, archmagi item, guild slotted SP (up to +80 SP), (epic) spellstoring ring, twisted talisman (can have an epic one and a non epic one), archivists necky etc.

Ok, fair points. The key message I think from the above is "Using an appropriate combination you'll end up with more DPS than what AA will bring"

This is actually good feedback for me, as I don't have much experience playing archers in DDO. My original preference was to try to shoehorn this concept into a sorc build, but as you can imagine the feats simply dont support it. I suspected that AA wouldn't offer me sufficient dps, but its good to have that confirmed by someone who has wider experience of melee and non-arcane builds than me.

I think what i'll do is rework this as a wf sorc, with comparable dex to this build, but taking no ranged feats. Then I'll equip him with a cannith crafted buckler (or named shield with no / low asf and no penalty) and throwing axes or hammers. I'll craft a set which has shattermantle and cursespewing per the edit in my post above, as well as the more usual spellcaster focused stuff.

The ranged capability then will only be used to trigger status effects and to deliver shadow dancer instakills.

As such, it would end up not being a new build as such, just a typical wf sorc with a different end-game focus that could be easily swapped around if shadowdancer proves to be a sub-optimal destiny. In a worst case scenario, the build points into dex might be a waste, but they would help reflex saves on a sorc anyway, and its unlikely that this will be the toon's final life.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Sorc won't have high int to make use of Shadowdancer abilities. On a wiz Insightful Reflexes is a must have feat.

[Tobi]

I have a suggestion. Build a wizard as you would. At level 16 you may consider using a doublecross bow, which allows using Int as attack mod in addition to Dex. I did that with my wizard, before update 14, and found it quite effective when not casting spells.

Link to doublecross bow in ddo wiki
http://ddowiki.com/page/Doublecross_Bow

[Loriac]

Re: double cross bow, thats a nice weapon, I use one on my arti. Reload speed would be very poor w/o proficiency, however I like the idea of using it as an instakill applier.

Re: sorcs non-synergy with the shadowdancer tree, this is true. When I originally was mulling over these ideas, I think I was considering a cha dumped wf sorc (i.e. using non-save spells as much as possible) with a decent dex. I guess the question is whether its simply better to go down the melee path and pump up str if you're doing that.

However, the thought I had was that the shadowdancer tree can provide you instakill capability that you'd otherwise lack on a non-dc sorc, and the executioner's strike ability procs off dex rather than int (although its unclear how often it will proc).

Having looked at the other ED trees, I'm not really taken with any of them for a sorc build tbh, although this may change as the draconic tree in particular gets updated. The magister tree has a few nice things, but its focus seems to be on ramping up wizard type abilities (spell pen, spell dc's) etc rather than sorc ones. In particular, my understanding is that the +3dc's in that ED require you to have a spell focus in your desired school, which I think is a significant cost to a sorc (largely because they lack the feats to overcome SR to make use of their instakills).

Re: insightful reflexes, normally i'd agree that its a must have on a wizard, but this isn't as true (as early) for a build with a moderate dex like the one listed above. You'll only see a huge difference between int and dex at later levels in such a build, allowing you to push back taking it til level 18 or even 21. Having said that, empower seems iffy to me post U14, as does extend (from before U14), so there are choices of things to drop.

I think I'm coming round to the thought that I won't be able to shoehorn anything other than wiz or arti into shadowdancer, and of the two my preference is arti as they're more fun to play (imo). They also have very good synergy with the tree, and arguably benefit the most from the evasion capstone.

I guess I'll look at the other EDs and see if theres anything that provides decent cc, the one thing that arti's really lack. The alternative is I guess 3x Wiz PL, for the +6 to wand dc (combined with heighten wand, this might make wanded web usable, but it seems like a lot of effort for a fairly mediocre dc).

Conversely, pin and otto's whistler look nice in the SC tree (however single target only) but again its quite a grind working your way around the tree.

[krackythehoodedone]

Not sure AA and Wiz are a synergetic combo.

In terms of AA capability ur STr is to low. Ur Dex is to low to hit reliably at endgame.

No imp Crit Ranged ? No PS or IPS which every properly ranged toon must have.

Really the two dont go together. A wiz can do big DPS at Range. If you got rid of the AA stuff you could max out the Force line , give yourself a few hundred extra SP and be able to hit mobs with force missiles far more effectively than you ever could with a bow .

When you try and add a splash or an extra capability certain combos work great others just dont. With Wizards i think the best synergy would be to build in 2 rogue or go WF.

For an AA build which also has other abilities in the casting sphere i would look at either straight Arti or 18/2 Clonk zen archery

[wax_on_wax_off]

Iirc Tinyelvis had a similar 20 wiz AA idea and that was certainly a robust debate so perhaPs you could take something away from that.

Sorc needs spell focus anyway for their PrE though that's evo or conj. I think in epic norm/hard you'll get decent to good traction with instant kills on a decently geared fleshy Sorc with a wiz PL but in elites you'll have to nuke high for mobs and save instant kills for rogue/wiz type mobs maybe (which is okay - nuking is good).

I considered a 13 wizard/6 monk/1 fighter arcane archer as an idea which would be a proper archer being able to range most of the time (due to 10k stars). Anything less though and I think the investment will be wasted. I'll likely never roll that build as IPS will come too late to make the build fun to level due to BAB restrictions (I like it by 15 at the latest).

[unbongwah]

I considered a 13 wizard/6 monk/1 fighter arcane archer

Did you consider wiz 12 / monk 6 / ftr 2 instead? You lose lvl 7 spells, but gain a feat & pt of BAB, which should let you take IPS a little sooner (lvl 16 at the earliest). Not saying it's a good idea, just curious how it works; I kinda like the idea of a self-healing wraith archer.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Did you consider wiz 12 / monk 6 / ftr 2 instead? You lose lvl 7 spells, but gain a feat & pt of BAB, which should let you take IPS a little sooner (lvl 16 at the earliest). Not saying it's a good idea, just curious how it works; I kinda like the idea of a self-healing wraith archer.

IPS is BAB: 11 pretty sure. The above split gets that at level 18 I think. I did hear that zombie form is only -20% melee and not ranged which is a step in the right direction if true but it's generally not fun to get wraith form at level 20 I'd tend to feel.

First or second life character (ranger PL would help) with the plan to stay at cap running epic normal/hard could definitely make for a fun build with dual dots/dual AoE dots/debuffs etc. 12 probably was the original idea as not sure what 13 wiz would give that would be worthwhile. Gearing and SP management would be a real challenge, particularly getting a big enough SP pool to keep up dots on bosses for some competitive single target DPS when combined with Manyshot/10k stars. Possibly epic mental toughness could work (as you have MT for wraith form anyway). You actually make me want to try it :P

[unbongwah]

IPS is BAB: 11 pretty sure. The above split gets that at level 18 I think.

Ftr 2 (2) + monk 4 (3) + wiz 12 (6) = BAB 11 at lvl 16. Or ftr 2 / monk 6 / wiz 10, for that matter. Though I'll agree it kinda sucks that all your best abilities get backloaded so late.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Ftr 2 (2) + monk 4 (3) + wiz 12 (6) = BAB 11 at lvl 16. Or ftr 2 / monk 6 / wiz 10, for that matter. Though I'll agree it kinda sucks that all your best abilities get backloaded so late.

2+4+12=18. 2+3+6=11.

Don't throw such things at me when I first wake up ><

[unbongwah]

Did you consider wiz 12 / monk 6 / ftr 2 instead?

Just thinking out loud:

Feats: 7 base + 3 wiz + 3 monk + 2 ftr + 2 epic = 17 total
AA pre-reqs: PBS, WF:R
PM / wraith pre-reqs: SF:Necro (w), GSF:N, Mental Toughness (w)
Ranged DPS: rgr dilly, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Prec Shot, IPS, IC:Ranged, Precision (m), Zen Archery (m), Combat Archery
Other: Toughness (m)

That's 14 feats w/3 left over for...whatever. Max, Emp, and Quicken, maybe? Stunning Fist? Shadow Fade doesn't stack with wraith form, so not much point to Ninja, so no need for Dodge. Maybe go light just for the heals while leveling and Align the Heavens.

Stats: high DEX & WIS, decent CON, low STR & INT (boost with tomes, items, etc.).

Gameplay: alternate between Manyshot & 10K Stars while ranging, of course; while those are on cooldown, use your no-save DoTs or other spells.

Quick test build:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Neutral Half-Elf Female
(2 Fighter \ 6 Monk \ 12 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 268
Spell Points: 741 
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 14
Will: 21

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             12                    15
Dexterity            18                    21
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence          8                    12
Wisdom               16                    26
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Zen Archery


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Rapid Shot


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 5 (Wizard)


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Precise Shot


Level 7 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Necromancy


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons


Level 10 (Wizard)


Level 11 (Wizard)


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Manyshot
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness


Level 13 (Wizard)


Level 14 (Wizard)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Precise Shot
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Fist


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Precision
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Acid Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Explosive Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Burst Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Terror Arrows
Enhancement: Improved Ranger Dilettante I
Enhancement: Improved Ranger Dilettante II
Enhancement: Improved Ranger Dilettante III
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Ten Thousand Stars
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation I
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation II
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation I
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation II
Enhancement: Storm Manipulation I
Enhancement: Storm Manipulation II
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation I
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation II
Enhancement: Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Force Manipulation II
Enhancement: Force Manipulation III
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master I
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master II
Enhancement: Shroud of the Wraith

Epic feats: Combat Archery and something else (Maximize, maybe)