Reconstruct Nerf

[countfitz]

What already op race/class combo? Human fvs? Helf fvs?

'Cuz... those, along with pale masters (regardless of race) are most op race/class combos atm. Not wf arcanes.

WF FvS got screwed

[budalic]

WF FvS got screwed

Well, obviously, WF FvS should be fixed then.

It should not, in any way, relate to reconstruct at all. It's a question of balance between fleshy fvs and WF fvs.

And, IMO, wf fvs was already worse melee fvs build than fleshie even before U14. But that's off-topic.

[bigolbear]

@ still waters,

hey man i know from our previuos discussions your generaly a reasonable person.

you maintain that recon is faster than heal - thats only the case on a sorc - and faster casting is a sorc special ability.

a wizards recon and a clerics heal have the same casting time/cooldown.(standard for a lvl 6 spell) The animation for recon is a tiny bit faster but its just an animation thing - they both apply the 1 second universal cooldown on either other spells of weapon swings. They are both equaly interuptable - or not as we all take quicken.

[CaptainSpacePony]

As the thread shows, there a details to quibble about, but I agree with the bottom line that Reconstruct (and WF healing/repairing) needs some love not hate.

[SilentAssassin82]

Nerfing Reconstruct is a disgrace in my opinion. I'm just wondering what all the WF hate is about these days. This dosn't just affect the Wizard Builds, it reduces the playability of an already inferior race. It's not like Reconstruct is all that uber and in all honesty, anyone that thinks speed of recontruct is a benefit is in a dream world. Anyone can cast haste on themself. 2 effects that do not stack.

If Recon does get a nerf, then other things should be looked at, like either giving it the ability to remove disease/poison or give WF the immunities they had back.

[V_mad_jester_V]

Okay from my experience this is what i've seen playing the game

Amount of WF Arcane's is < or = that of non WF Arcane's
making that point, not everyone wants to be a warforged, not everyone has a warforged, and not everyone uses warforged (buyers remorse maybe..not i)

Recon is actually hardly ever loaded unless it used by a WF Arcane

WF melee classes would be hurt also (having a wf party with 3 wizards, 1 or 2 acting as the group healer, i've seen a few of these and been a wiz/healer in a few of these)

If the shoe was on the other foot, and you had to take tons of points into healers friend (even if you were a non wf race, elf, dwarf, human, ect) would you be happy? Not only do wf get screwed by nerf, they are screwed, while we have open enjoyment of many more enhancements, they HAVE to take healers friend for decent divine heals, while we just have to find a decent heal amp item? Not fair.

Reconstruct is such a niche spell that its not even close to game breaker, it dosent provide any of the benefits of the heal spell, and the person who has it is usually a caster arcane so the increase to speed isnt that great of a benefit mainly cuz you have hast and retreat readily available, and the only reason you have either spell is to cast on party and less likely for yourself. SO that being said reconstruct regardless of what it heals for, is far more inferior compared to heal

final conclusion, quick bickering and dont nerf reconstruct. WF has to work their butts off for healing (healers friends) and as i read healing amp dont work on reconstruct SO, it should be left as is if not improved upon.


If they nerf it add repair amps or remove wf penalty for divine spells. (cuz those enhancement points can be spent somewhere else).

[Mr.Spark]

Reconstruct is such a niche spell that its not even close to game breaker, it dosent provide any of the benefits of the heal spell, and the person who has it is usually a caster arcane so the increase to speed isnt that great of a benefit mainly cuz you have hast and retreat readily available, and the only reason you have either spell is to cast on party and less likely for yourself. SO that being said reconstruct regardless of what it heals for, is far more inferior compared to heal

final conclusion, quick bickering and dont nerf reconstruct. WF has to work their butts off for healing (healers friends) and as i read healing amp dont work on reconstruct SO, it should be left as is if not improved upon.

this +1

thank you for being a voice of reason in this hate-fest

i dont see why so many players want to see recon nerfed...recon saves your healers sp so that they can heal you instead of the mana-sponge trashcan

the spell is terrible and there is no healing amp for it, only warforged and (maybe) arti's carry it only works on one playable race (with the one exception of construct essence that it seems no one takes). It cannot be empowered/maximized. healing 200hp is just BARELY enough to survive the next searing light cast on you in running with devils and you nay-sayers are saying it should go even lower than that? the ONLY benefit that reconstruct has over Heal is that it bypasses Healing Curses but other than that it is obviously sub-par

if you nerfers want to keep supporting the nerf then explain why rather than saying 'If x then y' with X being Heal nerfs and Y being Reconstruct nerfs

[Thorzian]

this just shows how far the devs are behind. its cuz of curse of healing and wf tanks!! they just found out that people used to do that

signed.

reconstruct is NOT faster then heal.. sorcs are faster then other casters. the artys and wizzys are every bit as slow to cast the lvl 6 spell as the cleric and fvs.

the sheer power of bladebarrier as an offensive aoe still gives fvs the 1-up over wf sorcs anyway. clerics/arty's dont have the spellpoints. wizards are nearly all pale masters who dont use reconstruct. the defence of heal vs the offence of the class is pretty balanced now. add in a wf immunities nerf and a deathpact spell and fleshy fvs still comes out ahead. leap of faith is another advantage over all sorcs but air (less and less used. earth or water seem to be the norm)

[dng242]

/not signed

In order to make a game dynamic strengths must be balanced by weakness. The Warforged have a number of strengths. Their one weakness needs to be kept in balance. Currently, it is not.

[CaptainSpacePony]

/not signed

In order to make a game dynamic strengths must be balanced by weakness. The Warforged have a number of strengths. Their one weakness needs to be kept in balance. Currently, it is not.

Really? From where I sit, WF seem to be a disadvantaged race these days.

[Sonos]

Why the **** should clerics and fvs get nerfed to all holy and an already overpowered class/race combo that pretty much breaks the game should be even better in comparison?

I didn't see you ranting or raving when WE got ****ed over, so no.

/not signed.

When you successfully fight for our toons, maybe.

Possibly, the worst argument for not signing something i've ever read on the forums. There was plenty of ranting and raving over divine issues, if you didn't see the tomes of threads you weren't paying attention. If you are equating this upcoming nerf to your quasi-nerf than aren't you doing a disservice by supporting the nerf?

I don't want to get into how WF are not overpowered as one can easily read the multiple mile long threads already stating every aspect of the class, but I think you are shooting yourself in the foot here.

/signed (to the not nerfing of Reconstruct.)

[Mr.Spark]

/not signed

In order to make a game dynamic strengths must be balanced by weakness. The Warforged have a number of strengths. Their one weakness needs to be kept in balance. Currently, it is not.

please enlighten us on their ONE weakness

1.) -2 wis and cha?
2.) the fact that they have NO viable racial enhancements other than toughness and 2 con tiers
3.) they have -50% to all incoming positive energy?
4.) instant aggro vs rust monsters/oozes and vulnerability to rust stun that is a reflex save rather than fort
5.) they are vulnerable to Deconstruct which takes FULL spell power bonus rather than the half that the nerf will apply to reconstruct
6.) body feats are worthless, limiting max dex bonus, skill check penalties, arcane spell failure (even when composite which doesn't grant ANY ac), horrid physical resistance (0 for composite plate which makes it a composite plate as hard as flesh?)...oh and the fact that it takes up a FULL feat?
7.) docents provide the lowest form of ac in the game (yes, there are outfits that provide more ac than the best docent)
8.) forced to take healers friend if you are going to melee (2/4/6) and THAT doesn't even bring you to 100% base healing

there are more but you get my point...now I ask again, which one were you referring to because I count more than 1...but I may just suck at math

[edit] I haven't even mentioned the fact that SOME warforged take Improved Fortification which lowers Divine healing to 0%...what about their means of recovery? you think that we should lower their only form of healing?

[MRMechMan]

WHAT?

In order to make a game dynamic strengths must be balanced by weakness.

I agree.

The Warforged have a number of strengths.

You mean the immunities and enhancements that are now nearly completely useless at endgame?

Their one weakness needs to be kept in balance.

You mean the weakness that makes them get healed from positive energy for ~60-70% of a fleshie and makes them the weakest race for the majority of classes?

Currently, it is not.

We are in agreement here, the difference is you are not basing your opinion on reality and came to a different conclution how the WF race should get treated.

Do you really think the warforged as a race should get nerfed more?

[dng242]

please enlighten us on their ONE weakness

1.) -2 wis and cha?
2.) the fact that they have NO viable racial enhancements other than toughness and 2 con tiers
3.) they have -50% to all incoming positive energy?
4.) instant aggro vs rust monsters/oozes and vulnerability to rust stun that is a reflex save rather than fort
5.) they are vulnerable to Deconstruct which takes FULL spell power bonus rather than the half that the nerf will apply to reconstruct
6.) body feats are worthless, limiting max dex bonus, skill check penalties, arcane spell failure (even when composite which doesn't grant ANY ac), horrid physical resistance (0 for composite plate which makes it a composite plate as hard as flesh?)
7.) docents provide the lowest form of ac in the game (yes, there are outfits that provide more ac than the best docent)
8.) forced to take healers friend if you are going to melee (2/4/6) and THAT doesn't even bring you to 100% base healing

there are more but you get my point...now I ask again, which one were you referring to because I count more than 1...but I may just suck at math

I really don't get your point. The One Weakness (true weakness). Rust monsters? Really that is what you hang your hat on? minus to stats, sure but along with plus to con (dump stat right?). Deconstruct and what Harm? Yeah, no.

I will concede the real power of Warforged comes when mixed with Arcane (where it is borderline OP). The recent changes to poison/disease didn't really hurt that, but it did a great deal to hurt melee.

I would be for something that allows for viable warforged Melee while reduced the almost mandatory nature of warforged arcane.

[MRMechMan]

I would be for something that allows for viable warforged Melee while reduced the almost mandatory nature of warforged arcane.

Almost mandetory? I see plenty of fleshie sorcs that hold their own, and heal scrolls hit for easily 400-500 with scroll spell power and amp. +2 DC opens up a lot of doors too.

For palemaster, most wizards, warforged are behind drow, human, elf and half elf.

So yea, if you are set on making an archmage, call warforged OP, but if you think it is mandetory to be warforged when playing any other arcane, learn to play the class before posting about it on the forums.

[dng242]

WHAT?

You mean the weakness that makes them get healed from positive energy for ~60-70% of a fleshie and makes them the weakest race for the majority of classes?

it's 50% of base. Thus with equal healing amp it is <50% of total.

I have both fleshy and Warforged Melees. Healing my warforged can be a pain as it tends to slow me down. While my flesh's have to chug pots or get a "Heal" not just a cure to get rid of exhaustion etc. thus slowing them down. As I noted, the poison/disease thing really wasn't good for warforged (nor well geared fleshies). However, the immunities are still much better than nothing and that means I have gear slots open on my Warforged, you know for things like healing amp.... balance

[Mr.Spark]

I will concede the real power of Warforged comes when mixed with Arcane (where it is borderline OP). The recent changes to poison/disease didn't really hurt that, but it did a great deal to hurt melee.

I would be for something that allows for viable warforged Melee while reduced the almost mandatory nature of warforged arcane.

finally some fair assessments, thank you

you should NOT nerf an ENTIRE race just because how it syncs up with a class; you don't see Humans and Half-Elves getting nerfed due to clerics/fvs (not exactly a 'fair' example but when built correctly they can be very close in comparison)

as for my bringing up rust monsters: wf tank classes have HORRIBLE reflex saves and low dex due to low max dex bonus due to any body armor (if it is taken which is more likely than not) ...so rust monsters tear through them like tissue paper

[rant] 'but guy, the wf tank can just pike that section with the rust monsters and avoid it completely' ...you REALLY want your party tank piking instead of doing their job?...seriously? [/rant]

[edit] you really think that wf's one weakness is rust monsters? nothing else on that list counts as a weakness?

[MRMechMan]

it's 50% of base. Thus with equal healing amp it is <50% of total.

I have both fleshy and Warforged Melees. Healing my warforged can be a pain as it tends to slow me down. While my flesh's have to chug pots or get a "Heal" not just a cure to get rid of exhaustion etc. thus slowing them down. As I noted, the poison/disease thing really wasn't good for warforged (nor well geared fleshies). However, the immunities are still much better than nothing and that means I have gear slots open on my Warforged, you know for things like healing amp.... balance

50% base x 1.15/1.20 bugged healers friend=57.5% or 60% total.

Half elf or human spending similar AP on amp have 110% or 120% amp...almost exactly double.

A warforged can slot 10%, 20%, 30% healing amp items AND grind out TWO paladin past lives and be behind fleshie still...and it's not like the fleshie can't use that gear, so carbon copy fleshie is still 2x ahead.

Occasionally having to drink a resto pot is absolutely worth getting double heals. Gear slots? Who slots disease/poison immunity?

WF immunities mean almost nothing at endgame. They also get poo enhancements and a massive penalty to healing amp. Still think they need MORE nerfing?

[dng242]

...

you should NOT nerf an ENTIRE race just because how it syncs up with a class;

as for my bringing up rust monsters: wf tank classes have HORRIBLE reflex saves and low dex due to low max dex bonus due to any body armor (if it is taken which is more likely than not) ...so rust monsters tear through them like tissue paper

...

[edit] you really think that wf's one weakness is rust monsters? nothing else on that list counts as a weakness?

WF tanks tend not to hit themselves with empowered reconstructs. So, while I understand your point about not nerfing a race this change to reconstruct would not affect Melee much, but would have a direct effect on arcane.

You're first comments on rust monsters is very true. Granted all melee tend to have sucky reflex saves, but only warforged have the vulnerability. However, the majority of quests don't have rust monsters, and of course, other quests have beholders etc. Again Balance, perfect no, but yen and yang.

I'll be honest I have no idea what the last warforged stated is meant to say.

[Mr.Spark]

WF tanks tend not to hit themselves with empowered reconstructs

I'll be honest I have no idea what the last warforged stated is meant to say.

1.) Reconstruct is like a really crappy warforged version of Heal. It does not restore ability damage, it does not remove debilitating effects, it is not affected by improved recovery or healing amp, it is limited to only healing warforged races, it is COMPLETELY unaffected by any metamagic other than Quicken. - If it happened that these differences were changed to match the effectiveness of Heal then yes, I would agree that it would warrant the same 1/2 spell power nerf that Heal received, but this is not the case...so under its current conditions it should not be nerfed.

2.) I thought you were declaring that the 'one weakness' warforged had was the weakness to rust monsters...because you have yet to explain what 'one weakness' you had in mind