Low-level quests = inferior to high-level quests ? Why ?

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Hello, everyone,

I'm currently going through Sirgogs Adventure Pack Review Guide again (especially since the point prices change from Update 14 Patch 2 on !) and I think I've noticed an oddity :

Low-level packs just don't get higher rating values (Except Delera's Tomb).

Why is this ? I wonder.

Is is so that

- low-level packs just didn't get that love by designers high-level packs get ?
- are low-level packs sometimes so old [too old] so that they reflect rather a time when designing quests was not that much sophisitaced as it is today ?
- are low-level packs in general considered as being "not very good" by high-level players (read : bias ? ) ?

Which results in me wanting better low-level packs ! Enough with catering only the high-level players ! Revolution !


To be serious, considering all of this I find it more and more worrysome that the current trend of rather catering the high-level players ["Content Locusts" or Whales, depending on how one sees them] is clearly visible within the whole game, and the packs, too.


And, to be rather cynical, of course no-one of the high-level players cares about the quality of low-level quests. They could be as bad as they can get, yet they still would ONLY moan and bicker about levels in the 16-25 level range being "not good enough" (especially regarding loot).



My personal resolution to this is that i readdy want to have excellent quests like the high-level players get. Okay, Raids for level 3 players isn't a good idea ... Or, wait, why not ? Raids at level 1-3 ... Doesn't sound that bad. And yes, I can clearly see your faces twitch and expressions of facepalm ... But let's try to remain serious . Why shouldn't low-end charcters get Raids, too ? Why do have Raids to be a thing exclusive to high levels ? Is there a real reason apart from the "Newness" of players ?

And, come on, The Chronoscope really isn't a fun Raid for low-level characters. The Bearded Devls just are too strong. this clearly in't fun. And those who won't believe me are imho either TR'ed who have much, much,. much, much better gear so that they can easily go through the lowest levels anyway, or high-level players who get a collective Amnesia every time they try to remember how it was as they were doing The Chronoscope in the levels 6-7.

And, of course, you just don't get Chronoscope Raids for the levels 5-8. There's ALW>YS some people vastly above it there, because almost all runs there are for loot, not for XP.

From that perspective, The Chronoscope is a perfectly failed low-level. Raid. An excellent case book of "how NOT to do raids for the lowest levels !"

And the next raid there is only at level 10, I think.

So, either low levels need a new raid (and high-level players will moan "Nooooooooo !!!!" because they REALLY don't want that !), or The Chronoscope needs an adjustment, especially regarding the health and the teleporting feature of the BEarded Devils. They are just far, far, far too trong for genuinely first-life level 6 charcters, imho.

And everyone who doesn't believe me is a TR'ed one.



What I also want is not only that excellent design of high-level raids for low-level characters (higher levels always get the excellent stuff and lower levels only get oat flakes), but I also want the better graphics that are currently exclusive for high-end level stuff for low-end characters and quests, too.

As you have seen throughout this wall of text, I'm rather someone with a bias towards the "working class of Eberron/DDO" than for Eliticists.

Eliticists have far, far, far more space to express their wants and their needs and their wishes - and most people listen to them, exclusively. That's why there is a new level 16 quest chain in the Harbour, and not one for the levels 5-7 (where there is a certain F2P gap, I'm saying just in case no-one has noticed that yet).

And yes, Cannith Challenges are for level 4 on - but really, who does them ? - At that level, I mean.
I really don't believe many level 4 players do them, but I'd like to be otherwise informed.



And another idea I just had : @Developers, please try to play through DDO F2P only, and then take note where players have a rather hard time finding quests.

And then please add a few F2P free quests for these "level gaps".

And there won't be any help from high-level players regarding these !level/quest gaps" anyway; they're too busy complaining about high-end stuff anyway.

1-2 people should imho really go through DDO in F2P only and then adjust it a little bit to that.


I think that's it for now. Now you can throw me out if you disagree with my wall of text (can we have that as a CC spell, please ??? ).


Regards,

the weird Alrik

[DrakHar]

Hello, everyone,

I'm currently going through Sirgogs Adventure Pack Review Guide again (especially since the point prices change from Update 14 Patch 2 on !) and I think I've noticed an oddity :

Low-level packs just don't get higher rating values (Except Delera's Tomb).

Why is this ? I wonder.

Is is so that

- low-level packs just didn't get that love by designers high-level packs get ?
- are low-level packs sometimes so old [too old] so that they reflect rather a time when designing quests was not that much sophisitaced as it is today ?
- are low-level packs in general considered as being "not very good" by high-level players (read : bias ? ) ?

Which results in me wanting better low-level packs ! Enough with catering only the high-level players ! Revolution !


To be serious, considering all of this I find it more and more worrysome that the current trend of rather catering the high-level players ["Content Locusts" or Whales, depending on how one sees them] is clearly visible within the whole game, and the packs, too.


And, to be rather cynical, of course no-one of the high-level players cares about the quality of low-level quests. They could be as bad as they can get, yet they still would ONLY moan and bicker about levels in the 16-25 level range being "not good enough" (especially regarding loot).



My personal resolution to this is that i readdy want to have excellent quests like the high-level players get. Okay, Raids for level 3 players isn't a good idea ... Or, wait, why not ? Raids at level 1-3 ... Doesn't sound that bad. And yes, I can clearly see your faces twitch and expressions of facepalm ... But let's try to remain serious . Why shouldn't low-end charcters get Raids, too ? Why do have Raids to be a thing exclusive to high levels ? Is there a real reason apart from the "Newness" of players ?

And, come on, The Chronoscope really isn't a fun Raid for low-level characters. The Bearded Devls just are too strong. this clearly in't fun. And those who won't believe me are imho either TR'ed who have much, much,. much, much better gear so that they can easily go through the lowest levels anyway, or high-level players who get a collective Amnesia every time they try to remember how it was as they were doing The Chronoscope in the levels 6-7.

And, of course, you just don't get Chronoscope Raids for the levels 5-8. There's ALW>YS some people vastly above it there, because almost all runs there are for loot, not for XP.

From that perspective, The Chronoscope is a perfectly failed low-level. Raid. An excellent case book of "how NOT to do raids for the lowest levels !"

And the next raid there is only at level 10, I think.

So, either low levels need a new raid (and high-level players will moan "Nooooooooo !!!!" because they REALLY don't want that !), or The Chronoscope needs an adjustment, especially regarding the health and the teleporting feature of the BEarded Devils. They are just far, far, far too trong for genuinely first-life level 6 charcters, imho.

And everyone who doesn't believe me is a TR'ed one.



What I also want is not only that excellent design of high-level raids for low-level characters (higher levels always get the excellent stuff and lower levels only get oat flakes), but I also want the better graphics that are currently exclusive for high-end level stuff for low-end characters and quests, too.

As you have seen throughout this wall of text, I'm rather someone with a bias towards the "working class of Eberron/DDO" than for Eliticists.

Eliticists have far, far, far more space to express their wants and their needs and their wishes - and most people listen to them, exclusively. That's why there is a new level 16 quest chain in the Harbour, and not one for the levels 5-7 (where there is a certain F2P gap, I'm saying just in case no-one has noticed that yet).

And yes, Cannith Challenges are for level 4 on - but really, who does them ? - At that level, I mean.
I really don't believe many level 4 players do them, but I'd like to be otherwise informed.



And another idea I just had : @Developers, please try to play through DDO F2P only, and then take note where players have a rather hard time finding quests.

And then please add a few F2P free quests for these "level gaps".

And there won't be any help from high-level players regarding these !level/quest gaps" anyway; they're too busy complaining about high-end stuff anyway.

1-2 people should imho really go through DDO in F2P only and then adjust it a little bit to that.


I think that's it for now. Now you can throw me out if you disagree with my wall of text (can we have that as a CC spell, please ??? ).


Regards,

the weird Alrik

There are plenty of good packs at low levels. But there is also plenty of free xp. If you're only buying 2-3 packs, even if they offer more xp, low level ones just dont make sense.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I already have all low-level packs.

And that wasn't my point anyway, I'm sorry.

I'm rather like mister Buffett who wondered why he had to pay less tax than his secretary does.

[FranOhmsford]

In my opinion the best graphical pack in the game is.....3 Barrel Cove - Yes Low Level.

Catacombs
Tangleroot
Shan To Kor

Are all nice packs - Unfortunately STK needs a Loot upgrade as it's now the worst pack for loot in the game.

Sorrowdusk is sometimes counted as low level and certainly has graphics as good as any high lvl pack you can mention.

Necro 1 is superbly well done for atmosphere and feels like real D&D Dungeons - Necro 2 is pretty good there too - Unfortunately both fall down on replayability on a computer - I'll say again - They'd be amazing Pen N Paper Dungeons.

Delera's I actually don't like - Yes it's the most popular low level pack, Yes it get's high marks from the power gamers but that has nothing to do with graphics, atmosphere etc. and everything to do with the sheer amount of XP it's worth.

Phiarlan Carnival btw would be my second favourite pack after 3 Barrel except for the fact that Small Problem is insanely hard for it's level - Graphically, Atmospherically, Loot wise, XP Wise, Fun Factor {except Small Problem Elite} it stacks up against any pack you can name.

Going into Mid Level Packs:

Threnal - Needs a huge overhaul but could be amongst the best packs in the game if the devs ever get around to sorting it out.

Red Fens - Terrible Slayer, 2 Annoying as all heck quests, 1 Great Quest - Fathom the Depths - Plus Into the Deep

Restless Isles - Fix the Map! Otherwise this really is a superb Zone.

VoN - Seriously I don't think anyone's gonna complain about VoN - Apart from the fact that Velah should not get stuck in a cave mouth - She should be a far better fight.
Sinvala they did right - Velah = Wrong!

Attack on Stormreach - Superb - I personally can't stand Assault on Summerfield But I can honestly say that Graphically and Atmospherically this pack is amazing.

Sands - I don't hear anyone complaining about the Desert apart from Loot Drops of course.

Gianthold - Really loathe the slayer zone here myself and Crucible is one of my all time least favourite quests BUT the rest of the quests are done very well indeed.

Madness Chains - Not a fan

Vale of Twilight - Shroud and Greensteel makes this pack - Having VoD and HoX + the SubT added to it makes it even better BUT Coalescence Chamber and Sleeping Dust are NOT FUN QUESTS!
Too many annoying mobs in the Slayer too - Spiders {they're ants really}, Air Eles, Genies who turn into Air Eles, Bearded Devils, Scorpions... I could go on but suffice to say I don't really enjoy Vale.

Reaver's Reach - 3 Superb Explorer Zones + Monastery {Awful} which does have the Undead Beholder.
Prey on the Hunter is a fantastically well made quest, Enter the Kobold is done really well too {although I will agree that the end fight is over the top AND I can't stand the Chess Board.}. Unfortunately Monstery is just terrible.

IQ - God I hate Jeets.

Dreaming Dark - Far superior to IQ - One of the better packs.

Amrath - Slayer's dreary, Don't know the quests well enough to comment as yet.

P.S. How did I forget Necro III and IV - 3 is truly awful with no redeeming features - Orchard is Perfect BUT I've only done the four flagging quests so far:
Ghosts is one of the most atmospheric quests in game - Superb
Temple of Vol is the easy quest of the pack But not really a good quest.
Inferno is ridiculous
Fleshmaker has an insane end fight
So overall I'd say Necro IV isn't great - Orchard of the Macabre Explorer does make it worthwhile though.

[V_mad_jester_V]

Highend content is more on the p2p side then it is ftp, high level players have almost no love and must farm a bunch of quest to get through their levels, even with the added adventures there are a whole lot more low level content then high level content unless your premium (and own everything) or vip.

STK is good for the exp and time it takes to run, and I do agree the loot there sorta blows.
Delera's exp is good, and loved for its voice of the master.
Carnival has alright exp and good loot many people use in high end content.
Sorrowdusk, i personally have buyers remorse for even getting this pack.
Devils Assault, you have chrono which everyone farms for the Abaishi set, and Devils assault which has value for mid and high level players (and is fun)
Thernal is where you get mantle of the world shaper
Attack on Stormreach is vauled at mid levels, i've seen tons o people rocking the equipment you can make from there
Red Fens have decent exp and decent named loot sets.
Sentinels is pretty easy chain with alright exp and the equpiment found there (with very minimal amount of farming needed) also valued by high level players (epic jidz bracers ftw)
Sharn Syndicate takes a total of 30 mins-40mins and can be farmed for good exp (loot sucks but the quest are so short anyways)
Catacombs has decent end rewards with minimal amount of farming
Necro 1 and 2 has an alright amount of exp and is easy to run with right group
Von good exp and von6 has good loot
Sands where you can get the coveted bloodstone and good exp, with moderate to heavy farming for exp (but only requires one play through of each flagging quest to get to raid)
havent really gotten into 3bc yet cuz i dont own it yet
im not planning on buying restless isle
Tangleroot, not too sure about this one either, havent bought it yet and not sure if i should (is it really worth the spend)
There is tons of low level adventure packs with benefits from almost all of them

now lets look at the high level content

Vale, good exp, and a moderate *for those who are lucky* to a heavy amount of farming (to a point where people are doing 0 exp runs at level for greensteel mats)
Amrath, trivial exp and some difficult quest that should give more exp then what they offer
Gianthold, good exp and requires a low to moderate amount of farming for relics
upper necro decent exp and requires a low to heavy farming for taps/equipment also have the raid which i barely see posted up (orien server) dont know how it goes for other servers
Harbinger has meh exp and i havent seen too many goodies drop from that set
Cannith moderate amount of exp and tough quest, did blown to bits and the exp was not really worth the grind on leet (f u bomber man)
Reavers Refuge, the exp is meh at best imo and requires a moderate to heavy amount of farming for dt runes
Dreaming dark, bad exp (nothing i would farm for levels) and good loot (ioun stones is what most people really farm for, not sure about other loot, havent looked into it, but i personally farm for stones) which requires moderate to heavy farming
Path of Inspiration again i dont think the exp is that great here, and requires farming for equipment
and last but not least
Menace of the underdark. Did the riddle on leet, took forever for 6k exp. Havent really jumped into the other content my tr is only level 19 but im sure there are others who can confirm my assumption that the exp here isnt anything to clamor over (unless they detracted from the norm of high end content giving **** exp)

as i think about it, low leveled content caters better to players then high level content. The amount of farming in high leveled content is far greater than the lower ones. There are many more packs for the low level to mid level players then there are for high level. Exp is much easier to come across and farm for low level content. The loot in many low level packs are still used by level 20+ (epic equipment) and even some non epic stuff are used as well by end game. There are far more options for low-mid leveled players then there is for high level players

[V_mad_jester_V]

My personal resolution to this is that i readdy want to have excellent quests like the high-level players get. Okay, Raids for level 3 players isn't a good idea ... Or, wait, why not ? Raids at level 1-3 ... Doesn't sound that bad. And yes, I can clearly see your faces twitch and expressions of facepalm ... But let's try to remain serious . Why shouldn't low-end charcters get Raids, too ? Why do have Raids to be a thing exclusive to high levels ? Is there a real reason apart from the "Newness" of players ?

And, come on, The Chronoscope really isn't a fun Raid for low-level characters. The Bearded Devls just are too strong. this clearly in't fun. And those who won't believe me are imho either TR'ed who have much, much,. much, much better gear so that they can easily go through the lowest levels anyway, or high-level players who get a collective Amnesia every time they try to remember how it was as they were doing The Chronoscope in the levels 6-7.

And, of course, you just don't get Chronoscope Raids for the levels 5-8. There's ALW>YS some people vastly above it there, because almost all runs there are for loot, not for XP.

From that perspective, The Chronoscope is a perfectly failed low-level. Raid. An excellent case book of "how NOT to do raids for the lowest levels !"

Not everyone dose it for just loot, i often see at level runs on leet for chrono, and doing at level is CHALLENGING, and fun imo. Your not high enough level for banishing or insta kill.

And the next raid there is only at level 10, I think.

So, either low levels need a new raid (and high-level players will moan "Nooooooooo !!!!" because they REALLY don't want that !), or The Chronoscope needs an adjustment, especially regarding the health and the teleporting feature of the BEarded Devils. They are just far, far, far too trong for genuinely first-life level 6 charcters, imho.

And everyone who doesn't believe me is a TR'ed one.

I dont think chrono is wrong for the level its at, everyone one of my toons (first lifers to my tr) i have done at least one-two at level chrono runs on leet that were a success, if your failing at an at level chrono run reevaluate your party build and make it more balanced, while at high level raid content you can go in with 4 casters, 2 healers, a bunch of melee/ranged dps and be successful. While chrono would probably need 3 casters, 3 healers, 1 tank, off tank, and at least 4 ish melee dps, 1 ranged dps. Mainly cuz i as i said above you dont get the benefits of insta kill until level 10 (for vorps, banishing, disruption, and smiting) Also not to mention, cant have a bunch of idiots who will treat an at level chrono as if it were a typical loot run (a few people go one way, a few people go the other way, some stay clumped) same can be said about an epic level chrono (just as challenging as an at level heoric chrono)

*edit* Tempest spine levels 10-12 is a good practice raid for noobs who dont own content yet
if they cant make it in Tempest spine (easiest raids of them all) then they cant make it on any other raid, i've been through a successful Elite tempest spine with a 6 man group, and a group of green players */end edit*

What I also want is not only that excellent design of high-level raids for low-level characters (higher levels always get the excellent stuff and lower levels only get oat flakes), but I also want the better graphics that are currently exclusive for high-end level stuff for low-end characters and quests, too.

As you have seen throughout this wall of text, I'm rather someone with a bias towards the "working class of Eberron/DDO" than for Eliticists.

Eliticists have far, far, far more space to express their wants and their needs and their wishes - and most people listen to them, exclusively. That's why there is a new level 16 quest chain in the Harbour, and not one for the levels 5-7 (where there is a certain F2P gap, I'm saying just in case no-one has noticed that yet).

And yes, Cannith Challenges are for level 4 on - but really, who does them ? - At that level, I mean.
I really don't believe many level 4 players do them, but I'd like to be otherwise informed.

K i feel like summing up these two points in one shot, I think many of the low level areas are better designed the many of the high leveled areas. There is less quest that are hard just to be hard (crucible swim you get nicked by a spike with low reflex your dead if you dont have the hp to survive it) actually that goes for most to all high leveled fixed traps. (look at rainbow in the dark you miss that jump chances are your dead, sucks when that dead person is your healer)

I start my level 4 challenges asap so that i can build and save mats for my ring of the stalker, vestments, wind bracers, ect. so that when i get them by level 12 i got most the mats i need.

And another idea I just had : @Developers, please try to play through DDO F2P only, and then take note where players have a rather hard time finding quests.

And then please add a few F2P free quests for these "level gaps".

With the new added content i see that the only gap there is is for levels 18-25.
1-6 korthos and harbor
6-10 market various houses back to harbor (i think there are some 6-10 quest in harbor still if i remember right)
11-16 12 and lordsmarch
16-18, new ftp chain can be farmed and some in the 12 if i remember right
They made it much easier for ftp players to reach level 18, one of my guildies recently bought vale and harbinger of madness when he was level 18 and used both packs to reach level 20. So I see no valid argument in the "theres a gap" theory anymore, except high level players.

And there won't be any help from high-level players regarding these !level/quest gaps" anyway; they're too busy complaining about high-end stuff anyway.

Many of them have the right to complain, there are many more low level quest that offer any where from 5k to 50k exp and much of the high leveled content only offers anywhere between 5-10k and if your lucky 15-20k, there are a few packs that are exceptions to this,but thats mainly vale (flagging quest to raid offers anywhere from 20k-40k)

but i farmed jungle of khyber continuously in one morning and went from level 9-11. In most high leveled adventure packs your lucky to get a single level farming any of the quest.

My suggestion to you is to play through the ftp content, and you stated you own the low level packs. So play through all of them and see how much faster you level compared to the high leveled content that gives you **** exp.

[LFKnowledge]

Hello, everyone,

And another idea I just had : @Developers, please try to play through DDO F2P only, and then take note where players have a rather hard time finding quests.

And then please add a few F2P free quests for these "level gaps".

And there won't be any help from high-level players regarding these !level/quest gaps" anyway; they're too busy complaining about high-end stuff anyway.

1-2 people should imho really go through DDO in F2P only and then adjust it a little bit to that.

Regards,

the weird Alrik

Hi!

I am sure Turbine has planned carefully the amount of F2P quests and have recently added more (the chain to FR).
If they addressed all the level gaps with more F2P quests, they might as well go broke.

The point of the F2P model is a hook. To draw people in, and hopefully get them to pay monthly, buy points, or whatever it takes to spend money on the game to generate revenues.

And if you want to fill in gaps and remain truly F2P, there are plenty of guides and advice on earning favor to buy the packs you need.

If one chooses to not spend any money at all, DDO's F2P model certainly allows for that. All it takes in exchange for money is time.

Point is, Devs time is better spent on fixing bugs, game issues and new content. The F2P model is fine the way it is.

[sirgog]

Firstly my thread is out of date now.

But the main reasons are:

1) - There's a lot of free low level quests.
2) - Except for Delara's Tomb and Threnal (with the XP items) all low-level loot is obsoleted quickly. Even the highest quality items (Abashai set, Carnifex, Fens sets) generally last 5 levels maximum before other things are just better. High level packs have more loot you'd use for your character's entire life.
3) - High level quests were mostly designed later in DDO's development, once the Devs got better at it. This isn't to say some of the earliest quests to be added weren't classics but more of the later ones were.

[V_mad_jester_V]

2) - Except for Delara's Tomb and Threnal (with the XP items) all low-level loot is obsoleted quickly. Even the highest quality items (Abashai set, Carnifex, Fens sets) generally last 5 levels maximum before other things are just better. High level packs have more loot you'd use for your character's entire life.
3) - High level quests were mostly designed later in DDO's development, once the Devs got better at it. This isn't to say some of the earliest quests to be added weren't classics but more of the later ones were.

item 2 i would have to disagree with that, i still see alot of people rocking the 3 item abashi set, then continue to use them into their epics. Some of the fens sets are still good (i still use one set for my clonk), the wrath of sorakell is still a good set from 14-20. Many of those sets are not obsolete and i've seen it (have a level 19 tr) and when people bust out the measuring tape no one berates those using some of those said sets. Heck i have an epid jidz bracers and non epics i use from the time i can equip them to the time i can switch to my epic pair.

3 yeah i can see it, but it still blows that low level content offers so much exp you can zoom to level 16 and then struggle from levels 17-25. (mainly due to the trivial amounts of exp offered in the high leveled content)

40 mins to do the riddle and only 8k exp o.0, while 20 mins in jungle of khyber and i get 40k exp...something is wrong there.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

The point of the F2P model is a hook. To draw people in, and hopefully get them to pay monthly, buy points, or whatever it takes to spend money on the game to generate revenues.

I have seen this as well.

Problem is : Are they going to go after the Zynga (a tell-tale name !) doctrine or not ?

The "Zynga Doctrine" is described (and criticised) here : http://garethfouche.com/revulsion

3) - High level quests were mostly designed later in DDO's development, once the Devs got better at it. This isn't to say some of the earliest quests to be added weren't classics but more of the later ones were.

This is why I believe they should design new lowest-level quests with all of this knowledge in mind now.

And not let all of this experience exclusively be displayed at high-level players.

[Quetzacoala]

Quite honestly, I have found all of the adventure packs to be very enjoyable in their own way with only two exceptions.

Catacombs gets very boring over time, as it simply consists of mind-numbing fights with skeletons and zombies and running up and down endless flights of stairs. My motive for killing Dryden has always been that he never took the time to install and elevator.

Restless Isles... ugh. So hard to find a group for it. I regret purchasing this.

Now, some will disagree with me, saying that these two packs are great, and that is fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and this is mine.

[jbleargh]

IMHO, in high level quests the DEVs can assume that players learned something at lower level quests... so they can throw more complex things for us to do.

Compare the tile puzzles in Korthos to the one in Sane Asylum. Boss fights in low lvls to Dragons in Tor, in the Flesh, New Invasion, Dreaming Dark, etc.

There are quests that challenges the player in different ways... Prey on the Hunter, Offering of Blood, Crucible, etc.

Also, as already been said, low level gear has an expire date. Red Fens stuff is great, but soon the random loot will catch up and they will be in the bank till you TR.

Good high level gear will be useful till something new is created by Turbine... Even then... look at the recent discussions here about a possible eSOS beater in the new raid.

XP is not a concern to me. Interesting fights and challenges to test my PCs and gear that makes them better is my criteria to evaluate the adventure packs.

So, yes. High Level > Low Level packs.


About low lvl raids... It is a learning process... Raids should be a special thing... Stuff that needs some tactics and coordination to be played at lvl. You can't expect that from players learning the basics... I saw a lvl 16 cleric (probably "stoned") that didn't know about Divine Punishment the other day

Cogito ergo doleo

[Tshober]

Quite honestly, I have found all of the adventure packs to be very enjoyable in their own way with only two exceptions.

Catacombs gets very boring over time, as it simply consists of mind-numbing fights with skeletons and zombies and running up and down endless flights of stairs. My motive for killing Dryden has always been that he never took the time to install and elevator.

I think your assessment of Cata is spot on. I also found Delera to be pretty mind-numbing as well. After the 10,000th skeleton arcus, I started to get pretty bored. The only saving grace Delera has is better exp and 1 good loot item. Other than that I really dislike it.

There are some very good low level packs though. Tangleroot, Sorrowdusk, Red Fens, Devil Assault are all good. But the difference is none of those low level packs are really necessary because there is so much free content at low levels. At high levels, the packs are necessary because the free content is very lacking.

[Charononus]

item 2 i would have to disagree with that, i still see alot of people rocking the 3 item abashi set, then continue to use them into their epics.

I've seen this too, however I think it's a horrible decision, it just doesn't do much for you without good stats on the items for higher level, if you use them past lvl 8-10 ish you seriously need to look into regearing as I can't think of a single build where that would be optimal even at lvl 12 let alone 18.

As far as the op wanting low level raids, low level toons do not have the sp, feats, spells or abilities for the devs to make an interesting raid at low levels. F2P can be done as completely free but overall it's more of it's more of an unlimited time free trial, if you like the game turbine wants you to spend money and adding more f2p quests is against their self interest.

That said many of the low level quests can be a lot of fun but you don't really stay at low level for very long.

[V_mad_jester_V]

That said many of the low level quests can be a lot of fun but you don't really stay at low level for very long.

many of the low to mid level quest offer a higher xp turn out then higher level quest, vale and giant hold excluding
Von serious
sharn syndicate *full completion can be done in 2 mins per quest for 2k first time 1k run throughs not a bad rate imo*
deleras offers up a decent amount and many more i dont feel like listing off

[Jasparion]

Firstly my thread is out of date now.

But the main reasons are:

1) - There's a lot of free low level quests.
2) - Except for Delara's Tomb and Threnal (with the XP items) all low-level loot is obsoleted quickly. Even the highest quality items (Abashai set, Carnifex, Fens sets) generally last 5 levels maximum before other things are just better. High level packs have more loot you'd use for your character's entire life.
3) - High level quests were mostly designed later in DDO's development, once the Devs got better at it. This isn't to say some of the earliest quests to be added weren't classics but more of the later ones were.

Not to mention the low level stuff generally gets run once or twice at level, then not again 'til you TR. A lot of the end game content gets farmed regularly meaning you get a lot more value for money out of them.

[ZeebaNeighba]

I'm missing most of the low-mid level content, but I can say that most of the f2p quests there just aren't all that fun. For the level 1-7 quests or so they're basically just run through and kill everything and has nothing special. Most quests are like this on some level, but I think it's purely that way for a lot of the f2p quests. I was completely f2p for about 5 months with no packs and I can say that there wasn't really that much interesting stuff. Nothing there really felt like the high level adventure packs that I do own. Maybe when I start getting to the f2p Lordsmarch or Web of Chaos they start feeling like that, with bound named loot, being in a chain, that sort of stuff, but that's about it. But maybe it is me, maybe I'm just associating those f2p quests with back when I was a newb

Tempest's Spine is as non-raidish as a raid can get. No timer (I was quite annoyed to find that when I paid for raids, they had timers), the named loot is **** and completely unbound as well, no reentry lockout, and there was really just not that much to it. Not like how Shroud has its puzzles, a couple of raids prevent resurrection, Hound of Xoriat requires different strategy than absolutely everything else in the game, etc. I just felt Tempest's Spine didn't really give me a feel for raids, it was just a normal quest with slightly beefed up mobs and allowed in 12 people.

[GeneralDiomedes]

I just felt Tempest's Spine didn't really give me a feel for raids, it was just a normal quest with slightly beefed up mobs and allowed in 12 people.

Indeed, I think Turbine just made Tempest's Spine a raid so they could say they had a raid at launch. Then again, it was comparatively more difficult than it is now ..

[V_mad_jester_V]

I'm missing most of the low-mid level content, but I can say that most of the f2p quests there just aren't all that fun. For the level 1-7 quests or so they're basically just run through and kill everything and has nothing special. Most quests are like this on some level, but I think it's purely that way for a lot of the f2p quests. I was completely f2p for about 5 months with no packs and I can say that there wasn't really that much interesting stuff. Nothing there really felt like the high level adventure packs that I do own. Maybe when I start getting to the f2p Lordsmarch or Web of Chaos they start feeling like that, with bound named loot, being in a chain, that sort of stuff, but that's about it. But maybe it is me, maybe I'm just associating those f2p quests with back when I was a newb

Tempest's Spine is as non-raidish as a raid can get. No timer (I was quite annoyed to find that when I paid for raids, they had timers), the named loot is **** and completely unbound as well, no reentry lockout, and there was really just not that much to it. Not like how Shroud has its puzzles, a couple of raids prevent resurrection, Hound of Xoriat requires different strategy than absolutely everything else in the game, etc. I just felt Tempest's Spine didn't really give me a feel for raids, it was just a normal quest with slightly beefed up mobs and allowed in 12 people.

Think of ts as a "raid for dummies" guide. A group of green players can succeed at it if they can figure out the mechanics of working together. I think that while ts is a joke, if you cant pass a simple raid like that you will defiantly not pass any raid in this game on after.

[ZeebaNeighba]

Think of ts as a "raid for dummies" guide. A group of green players can succeed at it if they can figure out the mechanics of working together. I think that while ts is a joke, if you cant pass a simple raid like that you will defiantly not pass any raid in this game on after.

I know it's supposed to be an introductory raid. But I think it should at least have features of the other raids.

Right now there are 14 other raids on live (iirc), and I would say that for each of the following features, the majority of those raids have them and Tempest's Spine does not.

1. A 2 day and 18 hour timer between runs.

2. Named loot* that is useful at level, but it is also bound to character. And a 20th completion reward, although this might not fit Tempest's Spine until it gets a timer.

3. Locks out reentry at some point, at least reentry to the end of the quest (you can still come back in for xp/favor in most raids that do lock out reentry, like VoD, Shroud and ToD).

4. A useful map

*I think Tempest's Spine has some named loot, but almost all of it is useless, even at level 10-12. There are 3 full plates with DR 5/- and 3/- and 3/- respectively, as well as an axe with Anarchic and Frost that's useful against Lawful enemies, but after that you won't see anything remotely useful. Even when I was a level 10 newb on my first character with no one passing me loot, I had my own Adamantine plate for DR 3/- and a +3 Frost Warhammer of Pure Good iirc, both of which are better than most of the stuff in there.