Demoralized Due to Decay

[SlyMagi]

Many hands make work hard?????????? Who says art is based on reality.
It's not a game anymore, it is work. I’m fighting a battle against losing renown for no apparent reason. Did we **** of the coin lords? NO! Did we anger the armies of house denieth? They keep giving me rewards now into my forth time TR ing and my guild mates are getting the favor too. Did we kill off a favorite actor in Phiarlan.... Well maybe, but they still are patting us on the back. Who causes the renown to drop if everyone in the storyline loves us and can't help talking about us. Then it must be beyond storyline. It must be beyond the game.

Beyond the game would be the developers and or the Investors, corporate Higher ups, and others that I can't even contact. This is for them to hear if they care enough to listen.

Why even have Guild renowned Decay? There must be a reason. Every guild can't be the most famous. And defiantly if a Character leaves the Guild on bad terms they may lower the renown. Of course all publicity can be good publicity that’s why Biggie marts keep getting bigger. Perhaps we only have guild renown decay to imitate time passing from good deed to good deed. If so then why do larger guilds lose more than smaller guilds?

The large guild I’m in has always done its best to help the new hero learn the game. We are always there to support the new player and help them find their new goal and the reason to play regularly. We spend our hard earned or bought DDO points to buy passes to show them the other areas that usually convince them to own that content too. We also invest in players with weak Characters: time, effort, and DDO points because it builds loyalty to the Guild and the Game. Quite frankly, our large guild is very good for business, Free in game support by unpaid workers. I want that in every business I start.

We have lost a few guild members over the years who want to start their own guilds and that’s great but with decay so hard on our large guild it seems to only be a short time before they fall off of the map as we choose guild mates first to up renown. Recently it is to maintain our level. The ones I like I put on my friends list and it seems pretty often that they stop playing soon after. Guild renown decay keeps us from supporting them as we did when they were in the large guild.

I have played Dungeons and Dragons since 1978. Guilds were often based on your class or your race and sometimes on a common goal or subject to where the guild was located. We would use Guilds as a way to make contacts to continue the storyline. Often characters would have more than one. Rogues would have a rogue’s guild (we called them thieves back then) and spoke in the thieves cant to keep their less than honorable dealings secret. But the same rogue might be a part of a larger organization too. Imagine the Musketeers everyone wants to be one or Robin hood and his merry men (thieves guild) but Robin was also loyal to king John.

I have an Idea that might revolutionize the guild Idea in DDO. This, if it can be implemented would allow every player to own a guild but continue to be supported by the larger guild. My second Idea would appreciate helpful players who create and build loyalty to the game.

I suggest allowing players be in more than one guild at a time (maybe two with the option of buying the right to the third). As well allow guilds to limit themselves to class, race, or Idea/area (Multi class or pure class/ ebboron or eveiningstar). We would allow the option of large guilds to stay large guilds. Of course then maybe a rogues guild, by limiting who they have, to rogues, could get a +5 to disable shrine that’s not available to other guilds(but you can only recruit rogues) and can’t get a Charisma shrine maybe. (These things would need to be decided) So a rogue a member of a rogues guild and a member of the large guild could get the +5 disable shrine then go to the large guild and get the Charisma shrine or the experience shrine etc.

The Drow specific guild might have a 2hour Intelligence and charisma shrine.(these guys don’t allow others on board sorry no invitations unless you are Drow) The Warforge may have a 2 hour constitution shrine and +5% fortification. (you have to pay for warforge, maybe past life should get you in)

Meanwhile the large guild Idea could allow anyone in and would only have shrines that would be good for all characters races etc. (the experience shrine might be better in the general/large type guild. and other general amenities would only be available there.)

My second Idea deals with renown decay and loyalty to game.
End guild decay as we know it. It demoralizes players and demoralized people look for comfort; often elsewhere. That said in addition to gaining renown as we have, allow players the chance to rate the players who were in the finished quest (not able to choose themself) and give helpful character(s) a bonus of renown for the guilds they are a part of and perhaps give the chance to award an infamous (to players who pike and don’t play nice) thus lowering their personal renown. (Perhaps they will be demoralized and find another game to ruin.) (Perhaps a guild could be built on the infamy Idea and try to get to level negative ten for a bonus, they will probably only be in one guild)

Additionally allow guild leaders to see renown so that they can reward and praise players who make this game the best creating loyalties to the guild and to DDO.

Guild renown could then follow players, if a player changes guilds the renown goes with the player to their new guild. A band in the 90s the traveling Wilburys or something like that was made up of several famous musicians and it didn't take them much to be famous. Likewise in DDO if 6 excellent players came together to create a guild their personal renown would give them instant levels (they would still have to buy the ships etc.) The guild they left would suffer the decay and truly great leaders would emerge as leaders of great guilds. Meanwhile your characters renown would fall only for inactive account status. I would be sure to keep my account active having 20 characters on Sarlona alone, It would be my own fault if I fell into obscurity. Guild leaders may see decay but booting inactive players would be worse because it may still be an active account. Guild leaders being able to see renown could choose the best leadership for their guild and make room for new players based on renown value and inactivity combined.

I believe these changes would build a strong and loyal player base that strives to be helpful and uplifting to others, while at the same time ending the demoralizing elements that drive players away from DDO.

[V_mad_jester_V]

I suggest allowing players be in more than one guild at a time (maybe two with the option of buying the right to the third). As well allow guilds to limit themselves to class, race, or Idea/area (Multi class or pure class/ ebboron or eveiningstar). We would allow the option of large guilds to stay large guilds. Of course then maybe a rogues guild, by limiting who they have, to rogues, could get a +5 to disable shrine that’s not available to other guilds(but you can only recruit rogues) and can’t get a Charisma shrine maybe. (These things would need to be decided) So a rogue a member of a rogues guild and a member of the large guild could get the +5 disable shrine then go to the large guild and get the Charisma shrine or the experience shrine etc.

The Drow specific guild might have a 2hour Intelligence and charisma shrine.(these guys don’t allow others on board sorry no invitations unless you are Drow) The Warforge may have a 2 hour constitution shrine and +5% fortification. (you have to pay for warforge, maybe past life should get you in)

Meanwhile the large guild Idea could allow anyone in and would only have shrines that would be good for all characters races etc. (the experience shrine might be better in the general/large type guild. and other general amenities would only be available there.)

No, my guild bust their bums for the shrines we got now, to have our shrines taken away to be given to niche guilds would be bad pr. I would disband my guild and quit the game if they ever implemented a system such as this. Also guilds are meant to be exclusive to the guild your in, I can understand a guild alliance aspect, but there should be a different way of doing an alliance (shared private channel that would replace guild chat is the current norm). But joining another guild while in one already, just seems like a game breaker and a cheap sided thing, cuz if you leave all your guilds your going to make 2-3 guilds suffer instead of one

My second Idea deals with renown decay and loyalty to game.
End guild decay as we know it. It demoralizes players and demoralized people look for comfort; often elsewhere. That said in addition to gaining renown as we have, allow players the chance to rate the players who were in the finished quest (not able to choose themself) and give helpful character(s) a bonus of renown for the guilds they are a part of and perhaps give the chance to award an infamous (to players who pike and don’t play nice) thus lowering their personal renown. (Perhaps they will be demoralized and find another game to ruin.) (Perhaps a guild could be built on the infamy Idea and try to get to level negative ten for a bonus, they will probably only be in one guild)

Additionally allow guild leaders to see renown so that they can reward and praise players who make this game the best creating loyalties to the guild and to DDO.

Already topic similar to this suggestion. I dont think decay should be ended but maybe lessened a bit so its not such a high % vale, so that those who are carrying the guild renown can offset decay, while those who gets little bits arent considered a bad thing (not everyone wants to choice renown as an end reward, i know when im broke i look for the most expensive end reward to vendor off)

Guild renown could then follow players, if a player changes guilds the renown goes with the player to their new guild. A band in the 90s the traveling Wilburys or something like that was made up of several famous musicians and it didn't take them much to be famous. Likewise in DDO if 6 excellent players came together to create a guild their personal renown would give them instant levels (they would still have to buy the ships etc.) The guild they left would suffer the decay and truly great leaders would emerge as leaders of great guilds. Meanwhile your characters renown would fall only for inactive account status. I would be sure to keep my account active having 20 characters on Sarlona alone, It would be my own fault if I fell into obscurity. Guild leaders may see decay but booting inactive players would be worse because it may still be an active account. Guild leaders being able to see renown could choose the best leadership for their guild and make room for new players based on renown value and inactivity combined.

I believe these changes would build a strong and loyal player base that strives to be helpful and uplifting to others, while at the same time ending the demoralizing elements that drive players away from DDO.

and why should other guilds benefit for the work you put into the guild you just left? Thats broke, cuz then you'd see all sorts of people adding their 500k + renown from higher level guilds into lower level guilds, then you get a bunch of guilds who didnt even work for their level, they just recruited the right person. Thats too lazy imo, if your going to start a guild or go from a large to a small guild be prepared to bust ass for it, not take the shortcut into guild levels.

[V_mad_jester_V]

and why should other guilds benefit for the work you put into the guild you just left? Thats broke, cuz then you'd see all sorts of people adding their 500k + renown from higher level guilds into lower level guilds, then you get a bunch of guilds who didnt even work for their level, they just recruited the right person. Thats too lazy imo, if your going to start a guild or go from a large to a small guild be prepared to bust ass for it, not take the shortcut into guild levels.

oh not to mention carrying renown over like that would mean leaving no renown into the guild you just left making things even WORSE then the current system, and the ability to leave renown there then carry over what you made wouldnt be great either.

so you would rather a guild loose 200k renown for leaving it? I sorta like the current system for leaving a guild, except the only change i see they should make for leaving it, is that you leave on good terms no renown is taken

[CaptainSpacePony]

I disagree with the OP on most points.

In particular, I think that decay is flavorful and a brilliant way to represent a real reknown/fame/popularity metric. Yes, it can be a pain to fight against it, but you have to fight to stay on top.

-A contented member of a tiny lvl 46 guild

[Osma77]

I don't see a problem reducing decay, and i don't see a problem with "personal renown" in that guild leaders can see who is being most benifical to the guild as a whole. And i say this as someone who dosen't pick up renown as end reward unless it is 500+.

But i don't agree with the idea that someone would take their renown from one guild to another. I CAN agree with the idea if you mean that renown picked up from quests (as now) and renown from being a good player are two seprate types of renown. This might somehow provide some overall benifit, such as a multiplier (good players get a X0.5 to their renown for the guild, while pikers would gain -X0.5 (aka, half the renown they should be). Of course this whole system would be totally taken over by people playing the system and by trolls, so this is probably a wash. However, if it can be worked out, then i don't mind the "famous" people taking their fame with them, but having a char who personally has gained 500,000 renown on their char suddenly leaving and starting a guild where all that renown transfers? nope.

The problem, as i read it and as i see it, is that decay after a certin point becomes a numbers game. With people having to juggle recent leaves (people leaving or being kicked out), number of active-inactive, and trying to convince people to take renown just because the guild needs it because a problem. It has become less a case of "hey, this guild is awesome and has done a lot of work to build themselves up" and more of a case that people know how to work the system to gain the largest benifits. My guild was early on one of the top 5-10 guilds on serlona. We work together, we help each other, we are active, happy, and efficent. And despite this we are stuck in the 70s (and now due to decay in the 60's) while other guilds that I have never even heard of suddenly walk past me with level 100 after their name. This perverts the entire intent of the guild renown system.

[SlyMagi]

I don't believe I ever said take away your shrines. Just add new ones for Niche Guilds.

[Dethpayne]

"We chose our profession in defiance of the greed of the monarchy. We will not live for the sake of taxes to fatten the nobles pockets. We choose to live the only life available to those who would be truly free. We are thieves."

Personally I've been dreaming of a rogues guild since I started playing DDO. But with the current guild setup a rogues guild would be in trouble since you can't really do guild runs. Perhaps whatever renoun a player gets goes to both the Parent Guild and the class guild. How many times have you been in a group and unable to find a cleric or rogue etc. With class guilds if you need a trapper just contact the local rogues guild.
"/grogues hey you guys got a lvl 3 that can run Red Fang with us?"
Then, say the character gets a 500 renoun, then both the parent guild and the class guild both get 500.

short fix would be to fix the decay rate so it isn't dropping so fast.

[SlyMagi]

You say we differ in opinion on most points. Great but let's see what you like in these Ideas, I would love to see more input from you. Tiny guilds are easy to build but I just do not think they are best for the game in general. My Ideas are not to improve the high level large guild Im in. I want to find ways to help new players learn the game and keep vetren players loyal to DDO.

[SlyMagi]

Yes, it would be a really sad day that a main high renown earner leaves your guild to build a guild of their own but like it or not it will happen. I've seen it and even on good terms I've seen levels drop. We have to actually boot inactive players just to bring active players in due to the 1000 character cap. And booting someone who hasn't played in a year that has 700,000 reknown hurts,ut we have no way of telling if they will ever be back.

Yeah, I'd be okay losing the full 700,000 if I knew when they came back to the game their loyalty was with my guild. I'm also betting that there would be a lot less small and tiny guilds booting inactives who are not playing because they have a real life issue to deal with. Guild Leadership, would be what decides a good guild from a bad guild and the guild level would wld reflect it.

My suggestion was to have guild renown decay come off of inactives personal renown, so after a year of inactivity there would be no loss in letting them go.


Oh and for shrines on present ships, no need to change them. Just add specialized shrines for niche guilds.

[Acrisius]

I want to find ways to help new players learn the game and keep vetren players loyal to DDO.

This. Exactly!

Sure, every time Mabar or the Crystal Cove or Risia Ice Games came around, we expect a renown hit, but the decay always seemed reasonable. Maybe what I'm seeing now is just "a summer thing", but with more active members than before, we're still losing guild levels. It *IS* demoralizing.

[SlyMagi]

Thank you for being positive.

I agree, a simple fast solution is to slow renown decay. But I too long to have the niche guilds available someday like old pen and paper. And yes have the renown apply to both.

[SlyMagi]

Thank you for being positive,

My Ideas are not for the good of a guild, But for the good of the game.

Maybe a portion, maybe all the renowned a character earns, they should get part of what they have earned. Why would a person leave a good guild to start with? A player doesn't leave a Guild they like... Unless the want to start their own. Well, let them start a guild without leaving a guild. Let the character have 2 guilds (with the option of buying a third). I am quite confident the my guild would not lose members, but would gain sister guilds of every niche.

I'm sure If I hand picked 6 players to speed level a tiny guild to 100 It would happen fast. We wouldn't include a single non-veteran character and if the non-guildie fill in didn't know exactly what was going on we'd boot him and find one that does. .......That said, that's the present system at work. I have at least one 16th level Character on every server and some are not well equiped. And some have been booted in this way. It's demoralizing for the booted, I speak from experience.

My Ideas are not for the good of a guild, But for the good of the game.

[SlyMagi]

Thank you for your positive note.

My Ideas are not for the good of a guild, But for the good of the game.

[Dethpayne]

The problem, as i read it and as i see it, is that decay after a certin point becomes a numbers game. With people having to juggle recent leaves (people leaving or being kicked out), number of active-inactive, and trying to convince people to take renown just because the guild needs it because a problem. It has become less a case of "hey, this guild is awesome and has done a lot of work to build themselves up" and more of a case that people know how to work the system to gain the largest benifits. My guild was early on one of the top 5-10 guilds on serlona. We work together, we help each other, we are active, happy, and efficent. And despite this we are stuck in the 70s (and now due to decay in the 60's) while other guilds that I have never even heard of suddenly walk past me with level 100 after their name. This perverts the entire intent of the guild renown system.

My Guild is having the same problem. We seem to be stalled at 69/70. We are generally a full Guild and need to boot long inactive toons for new active ones. We just seem to be busting our butts to maintain. If the renoun decay is ment to simulate the passage of time then the NPC populous has the collective memory of goldfish. I say slow that decay down some, so that we don't have to pull 3500 renoun per week per account (one of the number crunchers in our guild figured that out, not me). I'm a casual player, numbers like that are tough even if I'm only grabbing renoun rewards and forgoing named items I need/want

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

The original Guild Renows outline (to be found in the Compendium) says that the Guild Renown will never go under level 26 (if I remember correctly). A least that's a safe harbour.

[CaptainSpacePony]

You say we differ in opinion on most points. Great but let's see what you like in these Ideas, I would love to see more input from you. Tiny guilds are easy to build but I just do not think they are best for the game in general. My Ideas are not to improve the high level large guild Im in. I want to find ways to help new players learn the game and keep vetren players loyal to DDO.

I think that old-style (buff free) guilds may be the answer. Certainly less exciting, but no rat race effect or reknown grind to worry about.

Flavorwise, I really like that a guild has to really work to stay on top. IRL, Ringo Starr just isn't as FAB as he used to be. Not because he lost skill as he aged, but because he just hasn't pulled the reknown from chests like he did when he was young. I appreciate the ebb and flow model the decay model creates.

[Xynot2]

If the point of decay is to minimize the number of people in a guild, it's working.
If the point of decay is to penalize a large guild, it's working
If the point of decay is to turn good guilds into elitists by making them have to discard great but casual players over decay concerns, it's working.

See. It's WAI.

[MsEricka]

No to all of your "ideas".

Also you have specifically chosen to be anonymous in myddo so we can't tell you what's wrong with your guild size. However due to your comments it sounds like you're a random invite guild with hundreds of accounts, and that's your issue. Your guildmates aresn't pulling their weight and getting renown and are simply keeping you down.

Lose the dead weight, or deal with what you've got.

[SlyMagi]

My suggestion does not remove decay totally. It changes it.

In these Ideas I have created, there is still the element of decay. But it would be decayed off of a players' characters who has gone inactive (possibly a little off of active players) and isn't working torward his/her fame. Booting said characters would not be a good Idea as then you lose all of it at once insted of over time. Guilds players who are conected even outside the game would be a network for DDO inticing more players to play frequently even if they can't play for long periods of time. (DDO can't sell products to non-players)

Large guilds would still have more decay than small guilds because it would be based on the number of players in the guild and how active they are.

The Guild leaders would be able to see the renown of all the guild members and would be better able to decide who the permanant inactives are to make room for new active players.

[SlyMagi]

Suggestions & Ideas

I'm not complaining about my guild size, or asking "how to tell" the leadership of the guilds I'm in how to powergame to 100. I just want the system to encourage players to play the game and to help new players enjoy playing the game and I feel that the pesent Decay system discourages and demoralizes players and I do not think that is good business. That is why I posted in "Suggestions & Ideas".

I'm sure your Ideas on how to power game a guild up levels would probably be dump inactives (which at this point needs to be balanced), If a Player has a real life (and the money to spend with DDO) and dosen't play all the time dump them. Keep the guild small and and skip the new players (who might have money and own nothing in the game and thus a prospective customer.)

My Ideas are for the good of the game, not for the good of a guild.