AC to reach for X% mitigation (Defenders)

[Feithlin]

*Edit: Thanks to the proposition of Sirgog, to illustrate the benefits of mitigation, I'll give the corresponding effective hit points, i.e. the raw damage needed to kill you.
For a 1,000 HP character,
30% mitigation gives eHP of 1,429 so that 1% mitigation = 14 HP
40% mitigation gives eHP of 1,667 so that 1% mitigation = 17 HP
50% mitigation gives eHP of 2,000 so that 1% mitigation = 20 HP
60% mitigation gives eHP of 2,500 so that 1% mitigation = 25 HP
70% mitigation gives eHP of 3,333 so that 1% mitigation = 33 HP
80% mitigation gives eHP of 5,000 so that 1% mitigation = 50 HP
90% mitigation gives eHP of 10,000 so that 1% mitigation = 100 HP
I may make some new charts based on these eHP instead of mitigation ranks.

I copy the thread I put in the general discussion section, as it is mostly destined to defenders.

The idea is to evaluate which AC to build for and how much mitigation we could benefit from in some scenarios. The results show that obtaining 10% more mitigation implies a big gap on the AC side, so that struggling for some more points becomes pointless.

PRR and Dodge can be taken as parameters, as they are not much affected by gear.
I took 3 main configurations:

Config. I: Light armor w/ iCE & w/o shield
PRR: 53 (27% absorption)
Dodge: 20%

Config. II: Light armor w/ iCE & shield
PRR: 73 (34% absorption)
Dodge: 20%

Config. III: Heavy armor w/ iCE & shield
PRR: 123 (46% absorption)
Dodge: 10%

Then I examine scenarios and the mitigation I would like, to see how much AC would be required:

Case 1: Normal Epic (+50 to hit)
Config. I: a good aim is 88 AC for 80% mitigation.
Reaching 90% would require 177 AC.
Config. II: It's more or less the same. 80 AC for 80% mitigation and 160 for 90%. So, no shield in epic norm.
Config. III: Good full defense with heavy armor can reach 90% with 147 AC. Not sure if it's possible atm, but it may be reachable in the future. Going full AC optimization for a mere +10% absorption is probably not worth the effort at this difficulty.

Case 2: Hard Epic (+80 to hit)
Config. I: The target AC is the same 88 AC, but for 70% mitigation this time. 80% seems unreachable for such a configuration (132 AC needed).
Config. II: Two situations are attractive: either aiming for 80 AC and 70% absorption (similar to the previous one), or for 119 AC and 80% absorption. The second would be worth the effort if it doesn't consume too much dps.
Config. III: Reaching 80% absorption is relatively easy, as it only needs 110 AC with heavy armor. 90% is unreachable (220 AC needed).

Case 3: Elite Epic (+120 to hit?)
Config. I: 50% mitigation is easy to get (76 AC). 60% requires much more efforts, if it's ever doable (127 AC).
Config. II: Here using the shield is worth it. With 115 AC, you can reach 70% mitigation. 80% is out of reach (172 AC).
Config. III: Reaching 70% absorption is easy, as it only needs 106 AC with heavy armor. 80% may be manageable with a lot of efforts (159 AC), but I don't think it's worth it.

Case 4: Elite Epic (+160 to hit?)
Config. I: 40% mitigation is accessible (83 AC), but 50% looks hard to reach (100 AC).
Config. II: 60% mitigation can be reached with 113 AC, which should be manageable. I'm not sure 70% is doable (150 AC). At this level of to-hit, using a shield definitely is a plus.
Config. III: Reaching 70% absorption seems still doable, with 138 AC. 60% absorption is quite easy to obtain (104 AC).

Case 5: Elite Epic boss (+200 to hit?)
Config. I: May reach 30% absorption with efforts (88 AC), but it seems hard to go above (102 AC for 40%).
Config. II: 50% mitigation can be reached with 111 AC. Maybe 60% is manageable with efforts (139 AC).
Config. III: Getting 60% seems relatively easy (128 AC). I'm not sure 70% is doable atm (171 AC).

Using full defense w/ heavy armor results more or less in 10% absorption than using a light armor with iCE and a shield, but the latter has evasion with a Rogue 2 splash.

I hope these numbers will help. They are for defenders. Other characters would need different charts, as they would probably have much lower PRR and Dodge.

I would really like to have some estimation of to-hits in elite epic.

[Nitesco]

What is iCE?

[wax_on_wax_off]

What is iCE?

Improved Combat Expertise I'm guessing.

Great work OP.

[Nitesco]

Yea nice thread, I am trying to figure out which defensive configuration will suit my Defender best. Looks like 2 levels in Rogue or Monk for Evasion and a higher MDB light armor to get in 15-20% dodge chance might be the way to go. My Fighter won't be set up as a main tank though, it's mainy for surival/solo'ability.

[Feithlin]

Yea nice thread, I am trying to figure out which defensive configuration will suit my Defender best. Looks like 2 levels in Rogue or Monk for Evasion and a higher MDB light armor to get in 15-20% dodge chance might be the way to go. My Fighter won't be set up as a main tank though, it's mainy for surival/solo'ability.

I have almost finished my setup. I'll publish it soon to collect some feedbacks.

[Stillwaters]

+1, linked in my dervish of death build, and copied to desktop .txt

good work OP useful and concise.

[Nitesco]

Improved Combat Expertise I'm guessing.

Great work OP.

Is there such a feat?

[Miztof]

Is there such a feat?

It's an ablity from Legendary Dreadnought ED (+20 PRR when CE's active).

[sirgog]

Thread subscribed. Useful info.

[Feithlin]

In the first post, I forgot to take Ghostly into account for general mitigation. Thus I have redone the estimations (I also tuned down dodge a bit). Since I have already explained how it worked in the OP, I'll just put results in a simplified form for the subsequent simulations.

The format will be:
Description of the model
PRR: Value (%mitigation)
Dodge: Value
Incorporeal: Value

AC for Targeted general mitigation:
+50 to hit: impossible AC (%mitigation), possible AC (%mitigation), unlikely AC (%mitigation)
+80 to hit: idem.
+120 to hit: idem.
+160 to hit: idem.
+200 to hit: idem.

Comment on the results.



Light armor w/ iCE & w/o shield
PRR: 53 (27%)
Dodge: 18%
Incorporeal: 10%

AC for Targeted general mitigation:
+50 to hit: 163 (90%), 82 (80%).
+80 to hit: 122 (80%), 81 (70%).
+120 to hit: 176 (80%), 88 (60%), 117 (70%).
+160 to hit: 153 (70%), 92 (50%), 115 (60%).
+200 to hit: 142 (60%), 81 (30%), 95 (40%), 114 (50%).

Similar to OP, but incorporeal makes some upper values easier to reach. A very well geared/optimized toon who could reach 115 AC would keep a significant mitigation against very hard opponents (50% mitigation vs. +200 to hit). At this level, every AC point counts.


Light armor w/ iCE & shield
PRR: 73 (34%)
Dodge: 18%
Incorporeal: 10%

AC for Targeted general mitigation:
+50 to hit: 148 (90%), 74 (80%).
+80 to hit: 221 (90%), 111 (80%).
+120 to hit: 159 (80%), 106 (70%).
+160 to hit: 208 (80%), 104 (60%), 139 (70%).
+200 to hit: 171 (70%), 103 (50%), 129 (60%).

Same toon with shield. Using shield starts being significant from hard epic. With incorporeal taken into account, reaching 129 AC (60%) seems a very worthy effort.


Heavy armor on full defense
This includes iCE, lSM, Heed no pain and Unbreakable stance.
PRR: 143 (50%)
Dodge: 6%
Incorporeal: 10%

AC for Targeted general mitigation:
+50 to hit: 129 (90%).
+80 to hit: 193 (90%), 97 (80%).
+120 to hit: 278 (90%), 139 (80%).
+160 to hit: 364 (90%), 121 (70%), 182 (80%).
+200 to hit: 225 (80%), 150 (70%).

The use of a heavy plate makes it easier to reach good mitigations, but doesn't dominate as much as we could think by looking at AC and PRR absolute values.


Light armor on full defense NEW!
This includes iCE, lSM, Heed no pain and Unbreakable stance.
PRR: 128 (47%)
Dodge: 18%
Incorporeal: 10%

AC for Targeted general mitigation:
+50 to hit: 118 (90%).
+80 to hit: 177 (90%), 88 (80%).
+120 to hit: 255 (90%), 128 (80%).
+160 to hit: 167 (80%), 111 (70%).
+200 to hit: 206 (80%), 103 (60%), 137 (70%).

It competes with the heavy armor defender. This is the model of my Immortal build. The main objective is to get the PRR as high as possible, with a strong dodge basis (no need to do too much sacrifices to go over that though), to relieve the AC requirements.


Monk with full Earth stance defense NEW!
This is a try, as I'm not sure how much AC could reach a monk these days. It includes iCE (20 PRR), Earth stance (30 PRR) and Sigil of warding (15 PRR).
PRR: 65 (31%)
Dodge: 25%
Incorporeal: 25%

AC for Targeted general mitigation:
+50 to hit: 117 (90%), 59 (80%).
+80 to hit: 175 (90%), 88 (80%).
+120 to hit: 126 (80%), 84 (70%).
+160 to hit: 110 (70%), 83 (60%).
+200 to hit: 136 (70%), 81 (50%), 102 (60%).

The monk has a very hard time to reach higher levels of mitigation, but it's very easy if you aim a bit below. This should allow monk tanks to bring a higher dps, as they have to sacrifice less.

[Feithlin]

In this package, I'll aim for more mundane defenses, i.e. characters who aim mainly for CC and dps, with little defensive investment. I found interesting to see what level of minimal investment they should make to maintain a reliable mitigation.

Joe citizen fighter in heavy armor
PRR: 28 (16%)
Dodge: 5%
Incorporeal: 10%

AC for Targeted general mitigation:
+50 to hit: 109 (80%), 72 (70%).
+80 to hit: 108 (70%), 65 (50%), 81 (60%).
+120 to hit: 94 (50%), 78 (40%).
+160 to hit: 102 (40%), 77 (20%), 88 (30%).
+200 to hit: No need to invest beyond PRR and Dodge.

In lower content, the minimum AC investment is very worthwhile. In harder content, the AC investment can still be useful, but the character will still take a lot of damage. In very hard content, defense is down to PRR and Dodge.


Joe citizen with light armor
*Edit: I forgot the Uncanny dodge bonus to AC, so the chart will be based on 20% Dodge instead of simply 10%.
PRR: 13 (8%)
Dodge: 20%
Incorporeal: 10%

AC for Targeted general mitigation:
+50 to hit: 100 (80%), 67 (70%).
+80 to hit: 100 (70%), 60 (50%), 75 (60%).
+120 to hit: 86 (50%), 62 (30%), 72 (40%).
+160 to hit: 94 (40%), maybe 81 (30%).
+200 to hit: No need to invest beyond PRR.

In lower content, it's similar to a simple fighter in heavy armor, but it struggles in harder content. The best bet is to invest into raising PRR (for example, Sigil of warding from Magister 1).

[sirgog]

In addition to damage mitigated, I think you might also want to consider effective hitpoints - the average amount of raw damage required to kill you. (Note: This is a probabalistic measure of ehp, also of some interest is your ehp on days 'the dice just hate you' but we'll skip that here)

For instance someone with 1200hp and 50% mitigation from physical damage has 2400 ehp. 60% mitigation would make that 3000 ehp. 40% mitigation would be 2000 ehp - notice how that last 10% was worth 1½ times as much as the first 10%?

[Feithlin]

In addition to damage mitigated, I think you might also want to consider effective hitpoints - the average amount of raw damage required to kill you. (Note: This is a probabalistic measure of ehp, also of some interest is your ehp on days 'the dice just hate you' but we'll skip that here)

For instance someone with 1200hp and 50% mitigation from physical damage has 2400 ehp. 60% mitigation would make that 3000 ehp. 40% mitigation would be 2000 ehp - notice how that last 10% was worth 1½ times as much as the first 10%?

It's an interesting idea. I could give the equivalent for all the mitigation categories.
But more than that, it's a good way to evaluate the hit points of my builds.
+1 (lucky you, I just turned VIP )

[sirgog]

Worth pointing out that in terms of EHP, AC has exactly linear returns, Dodge has escalating returns, and PRR is very, very hard to enumerate but has slightly escalating returns up to 50 or so, then mostly linear returns to 80 or so, then diminishing returns after that.

Of course none of this counts against non-physical damage such as all the $#@!ing Chain Lightnings and DBFs in EE DQ2, or Disintegrates and Horrid Wiltings in Abbot.