what happened to all the finesse piercing builds?

[GlassJaw]

I've been doing some serious house-cleaning of some of my alts that I no longer play and I found a large cache of finesse piercing weapons (daggers, short swords, rapiers) that I was obviously stock-piling for some now long-forgotten build I had planned.

I left the game for over 2 years and when I left, wounding of puncturing rapiers and finesse builds were all the rage. What happened? I don't PUG a lot so I'm not sure if people still make them but I certainly don't see them discussed in the forums.

Was it the changes to wounding and puncturing?
Was it the level of mobs requiring more DPS?
Was it the changes to TWF and the Tempest Pre?
All of the above?

Just curious before I send all my finesse weapons to deconstruction heaven.

[delsoboss]

*raises hand*

My main is a finesse piercing-specced human assassin, and proud of it.

Why finesse builds lost charm?
All of your listed causes and you can add:
-strength stacking over-the-top;
-bloated monsters HP;
-AC useless in end game content (probably a thing of the past with the new changes);
-lots of ways other than dex to boost reflex saves if needed.

[SableShadow]

WoPs died the death of nerf from three directions:

1) Epic (and select other high level mobs) have fortification against stat damage
2) 0 con isn't a kill anymore, it's a stun
3) Mobs regen stat damage over time

Still very useful, but no longer a go-to weapon.

I look at finesse this way:

1) Gear (and now ED) inflation reduces most of the advantages of dex at end game
2) It costs a feat
3) Poor weapon selection (compared to khops)

All that said, I'd hold off on burning your collection until the Enhancements pass happens in a couple months; rumor mill says there will be dex for damage in there somewhere.

[soloist12]

My current rogue:

1st life: 20 dex rogue
2nd life: 20 dex rogue
3rd life: 20 dex rogue

Won't play a rogue any other way. 50 assassinate dc as well. I'm a sucker for dex-to-dmg weapons.

Absolutely nothing wrong with going finesse, especially with 25% fort from precision, 15% from tier 4 shadowdancer, 10% from opportunity = 50%. You can land another 10-20% from armor piercing, but anything over 50 is probably too much. Tier 5 shadowdancer procs a 12 second sneak attack immunity on a vorpal confirmation - utterly amazing, works on undead/constructs/elementals, even while soloing it seems.

Sure finesse costs a feat, but so does khopesh. A high dex (40 on my rogue) and Lithe 3 has given me a standing 60 unbuffed ac as well, which is roughly 40% to be missed. Combined with 13% dodge (uncanny/7 charges), 25% incorp (shadowform), a smoke gs item (20% blur), you aren't getting hit much.

Then there's displacement clickies and uncanny for even more defense. Update 14 was friendly to rogues.

[Xyy]

My current rogue:
Update 14 was friendly to rogues.

Dusted off my finesse assassin for my first charaacter in MotU. Now, I don't want to play anything else. I love you Shadowdancer!!

Funny thing: my finesse build no longer has finesse. I dropped Finesse for Precision and have't looked back. Hitting is no problem without finesse. When the new enhancement system arrives, I will revisit this.

The synergy of the dex build rogue (preferably a dex/int) is hard to argue against. Now, with exceptional fortification bypassing, we may see some strength builds switching over

[Aerendil]

Dusted off my finesse assassin for my first charaacter in MotU. Now, I don't want to play anything else. I love you Shadowdancer!!

Funny thing: my finesse build no longer has finesse. I dropped Finesse for Precision and have't looked back. Hitting is no problem without finesse. When the new enhancement system arrives, I will revisit this.

The synergy of the dex build rogue (preferably a dex/int) is hard to argue against. Now, with exceptional fortification bypassing, we may see some strength builds switching over

I'm really curious about the to-hit without Finesse.
Is this on solo content? epic normal? epic hard? epic elite?

Please advise

[soloist12]

I would like to add that with finesse, precision, backstabbing +5 on tharnes, 40 dex, and no +attack and unbuffed/no otwf, I hardly ever miss in epic elite. For bosses, I'm using sneak of shadows just for the dmg, but i'm sure the hit helps some.

If you didn't dump your strength, you might be able to pull it off with outside sources like +5 backstabbing, +x exceptional sneak attack, +attack, etc. Seal of house avithoul would be a good ring for you in this case. Also, consider going with a light offhand to minimize the twf penalty.

[Xyy]

I'm really curious about the to-hit without Finesse.
Is this on solo content? epic normal? epic hard? epic elite?

Please advise

Been running new content epic hard without a prob landing swings. Haven't checked log but seems like it's old school miss on 1. Running old epics elite, I notice I'm hitting just as well as before if not better. For perspective, before the changes I had gotten to where I could hit eMalicia on nearly every swing (Divine Power = missed on one).

I believe (imho) that precision's +5% fully makes up for dropping finesse.

[phillymiket]

I'm not a finesser or a roguer really so I'm not a expert.

I do have a rogue I've taken to recently and have almost capped.

He's a finesse dex build.

When I'm using dex for damage (not using something like envenomed blades) my damage seems like sooo much less it makes me a sad halfling.

I will be switching to strength based for the next life.

PS - also it seems like, even when I switch to some non-finesse weapons, I still mostly hit even with not focusing on strength (but not dumped) which makes me think, what am I doing?
.

[Miow]

My current rogue:

1st life: 20 dex rogue
2nd life: 20 dex rogue
3rd life: 20 dex rogue

Won't play a rogue any other way. 50 assassinate dc as well. I'm a sucker for dex-to-dmg weapons.

Absolutely nothing wrong with going finesse, especially with 25% fort from precision, 15% from tier 4 shadowdancer, 10% from opportunity = 50%. You can land another 10-20% from armor piercing, but anything over 50 is probably too much. Tier 5 shadowdancer procs a 12 second sneak attack immunity on a vorpal confirmation - utterly amazing, works on undead/constructs/elementals, even while soloing it seems.

Sure finesse costs a feat, but so does khopesh. A high dex (40 on my rogue) and Lithe 3 has given me a standing 60 unbuffed ac as well, which is roughly 40% to be missed. Combined with 13% dodge (uncanny/7 charges), 25% incorp (shadowform), a smoke gs item (20% blur), you aren't getting hit much.

Then there's displacement clickies and uncanny for even more defense. Update 14 was friendly to rogues.

A lot of these things are super great but have nothing do do with a finesse rogue...strength rogues enjoy the same benefits. I always thought dex/finesse was only to hit....not dmg

[Jaid314]

a finesse rogue should still have decent strength to get the damage from weapons that aren't purely dex-based, so that you're not locked into only a handful of weapon choices.

as a result, your dex and strength, even on a finesse rogue, shouldn't be *that* far from each other. probably within 10 points of each other before buffs once you're geared, quite possibly even as little as 4-6 points if you have your absolute ideal gear.

the result of this with the new combat system, is that you're probably only getting somewhere between -2 and -5 to hit on a dex rogue without finesse (provided you kept decent strength, which you should), vs a dex rogue with finesse. while this isn't as bad under the new system as the old, it's still not great (but it is possible that you have a better use for the feat, i suppose - in fact, i would suspect that in the vast majority of situations, the new precision will add more to-hit than weapon finesse, as was speculated above, or at the very least it will be a tie. if you can't fit both weapon finesse and precision in, you probably should take precision... although in the future, finesse may be needed for certain enhancements and such).

also, you're hitting on a 2 because everyone hits on a 2... sort of (unless you're ranged, but that's supposed to get fixed in wednesday's patch). unless you roll a 1 on your attack roll, you're going to get at the very minimum a grazing hit. so keep an eye on your damage; just because you're being told that you hit, doesn't mean you've got such awesome to-hit that you're able to get past their AC on a 2. more likely it means that you're getting grazing hits.

[samthedagger]

a finesse rogue should still have decent strength to get the damage from weapons that aren't purely dex-based, so that you're not locked into only a handful of weapon choices.

as a result, your dex and strength, even on a finesse rogue, shouldn't be *that* far from each other. probably within 10 points of each other before buffs once you're geared, quite possibly even as little as 4-6 points if you have your absolute ideal gear.

the result of this with the new combat system, is that you're probably only getting somewhere between -2 and -5 to hit on a dex rogue without finesse (provided you kept decent strength, which you should), vs a dex rogue with finesse. while this isn't as bad under the new system as the old, it's still not great (but it is possible that you have a better use for the feat, i suppose - in fact, i would suspect that in the vast majority of situations, the new precision will add more to-hit than weapon finesse, as was speculated above, or at the very least it will be a tie. if you can't fit both weapon finesse and precision in, you probably should take precision... although in the future, finesse may be needed for certain enhancements and such).

also, you're hitting on a 2 because everyone hits on a 2... sort of (unless you're ranged, but that's supposed to get fixed in wednesday's patch). unless you roll a 1 on your attack roll, you're going to get at the very minimum a grazing hit. so keep an eye on your damage; just because you're being told that you hit, doesn't mean you've got such awesome to-hit that you're able to get past their AC on a 2. more likely it means that you're getting grazing hits.

This is a fantastic point and I repped you for it. Grazing hits are far more common these days it seems. And just because you are seeing a hit does not mean you are doing full damage. From what I remember, a grazing hit does not get you sneak attack, which means you are losin pretty much te bulk of your damage.

[Kinerd]

Funny thing: my finesse build no longer has finesse. I dropped Finesse for Precision and have't looked back.

This is a big key for making a strong "finesse" build, and "precision rogue" is an aesthetically superior name anyway, so it's high fives all around.

From what I remember, a grazing hit does not get you sneak attack, which means you are losin pretty much te bulk of your damage.

You do get sneak attack on grazing hits. I have almost doubled my melee dps on my wizogue due to this.

[Xynot2]

they went back to PnP

[Rawel_San]

a finesse rogue should still have decent strength to get the damage from weapons that aren't purely dex-based, so that you're not locked into only a handful of weapon choices.

as a result, your dex and strength, even on a finesse rogue, shouldn't be *that* far from each other. probably within 10 points of each other before buffs once you're geared, quite possibly even as little as 4-6 points if you have your absolute ideal gear.

the result of this with the new combat system, is that you're probably only getting somewhere between -2 and -5 to hit on a dex rogue without finesse (provided you kept decent strength, which you should), vs a dex rogue with finesse. while this isn't as bad under the new system as the old, it's still not great (but it is possible that you have a better use for the feat, i suppose - in fact, i would suspect that in the vast majority of situations, the new precision will add more to-hit than weapon finesse, as was speculated above, or at the very least it will be a tie. if you can't fit both weapon finesse and precision in, you probably should take precision... although in the future, finesse may be needed for certain enhancements and such).

also, you're hitting on a 2 because everyone hits on a 2... sort of (unless you're ranged, but that's supposed to get fixed in wednesday's patch). unless you roll a 1 on your attack roll, you're going to get at the very minimum a grazing hit. so keep an eye on your damage; just because you're being told that you hit, doesn't mean you've got such awesome to-hit that you're able to get past their AC on a 2. more likely it means that you're getting grazing hits.

What he said.

Also very very few people hit everything on a 2 ever. After this update I would speculate there is exactly 0
people that hit everything on a 2 self buffed, there might be a couple who could get to hit on a 2 with bard,
recitation and such. Just to explain to hit an AC 60 mob on a 2 you need 74 to-hit. To hit an AC 40 mob
on a 2 you need a 46 to-hit. There are many many mobs especially in the new content that have 50ish ac's at
least needing a 60 to-hit for a hit on 2.

Precision will now almost always match finesse. Few people have a disparity between str and dex of more
then 10 which translates to +5 to hit (most have quite a bit less). At 50 ac that is exactly 5% chance to hit.
above 50 ac you get more to-hit out of precision below you get more out of finesse.

The one problem with precision is that I believe you can't have it on with PA.

The one extra problem with dex builds now a days is that the bonus you get to your AC from dex has
proportionately decreased from what it used to be. At the same time it has become very easy to get boring
but usefulish 40-50% miss chance AC. Pretty much all the people that tried hard for AC got nerfed to oblivion
while the ones who didn't give a **** got buffed very high. Go figure.
Just my 2 copper,
Rawel