We DEMAND a dev response to broken healers friend.

[Scraap]

Thanks to everyone with constructive comments!

I don't usually play Warforged characters, so was unaware that it formerly added to the base healing vulnerability, rather than stacking multiplicative like all other sources of amplification.

This was not an intentional change, it is likely an accidential "halo" effect from some backend coding work for the expansion pack.

Interestingly enough, that means it's a buff for warforged with high enough amplification (who reach over 100% total before this enhancement is taken into account), but for anyone with less, it certainly does have a negative impact.

I'll track down what changed, and see if we can get it fixed back to how it was ASAP for you guys.

Honestly, considering just how much the net multiplier swings, and how obviously twitchy even a minor change has, I'd consider revisiting the entire healing amp stacking method.

'Course, if you do, bring a fire extinguisher.

[slimkj]

I'll track down what changed, and see if we can get it fixed back to how it was ASAP for you guys.

Thanks, Feather.

Just in time too, what with the price going up shortly.

[PopeJual]

Hello MRMechMan,
I've tried investigating this, and in every test I attempted, Healer's Friend was resulting in the proper amount of healing.

Could you please submit a bug report detailing pertinent information, such as your character level, what your total percentage of healing amplification should be, your equipment/enhancements contributing to it, and your actual observed percentage of healing amplification?

If you can include your character name, account name, and server, then our Quality Assurance team can also grab a local copy of your character, which will be extremely helpful for finding steps to reproduce the problem.

You can use the bug reporting page here: http://forums.ddo.com/new_bug.php

Thanks!

Is there a list of how effects are supposed to work written down somewhere?

If not, shouldn't there be?

[scoobmx]

Interestingly enough, that means it's a buff for warforged with high enough amplification (who reach over 100% total before this enhancement is taken into account), but for anyone with less, it certainly does have a negative impact.

No. You'll have to excuse me for telling a developer that he's wrong, but you're wrong. Please do the math again and see that:

Case 1: Healer's Friend adds to base healing. Heal amp is: (0.5+HF)*HA where HA = multiplicative healing amp sources such as gear (HA > 1) and HF = healer's friend bonus, as a fraction (0.15 for 15%)

Case 2: Healer's Friend multiplies as healing amp. Heal amp is: (0.5)*HA*(1+HF).

Difference Case 1 - Case 2 = HA*[(0.5+HF) - (0.5*(1+HF))] = HA*HF/2

If the difference is negative, then the bugged healer's friend implementation is better. The difference is only negative if the healer's friend bonus is negative, which never happens because it's a bonus. In conclusion the bugged healer's friend is a nerf for all cases, but increasingly severe for higher levels of healer's friend taken and more healing amp gear (your's truly, a WF SD tank)

[bbqzor]

Interestingly enough, that means it's a buff for warforged with high enough amplification (who reach over 100% total before this enhancement is taken into account), but for anyone with less, it certainly does have a negative impact.

I don't think this is possible... saying you were at 110% before considering your WF-ness, it would be:
110%, x65% (how it should be) = 71.5%
110%, x50%, x115% (how it is broken) = 63.25%
In short, no matter what values you have, the current broken version is not a buff. If you have math that shows otherwise, I'm all ears (or eyes I guess, since I'd be reading it). But I'm pretty confident that the current break has no positive effects on anyone, using any values.

I'll track down what changed, and see if we can get it fixed back to how it was ASAP for you guys.

Thank you... with this bug in play currently, and a price hike coming on the 25th for WF as a race... I would have very pointed feelings, to say the least, if it wasn't addressed. Its nice to see people who choose WF for non-arcane (self reconstruct) builds aren't going to be completely marginalized.

healers friend II (III is SIX ap, no build takes that)

I have a WF Barb, who is very epic capable and runs higher difficulty end game content regularly. I take it on him, and wouldn't build him any other way.

I'm not trying to say its wrong to not take it, only that its different strokes for different folks... the flexibility to be healed well by whatever I'm grouped with is invaluable to me.

That said, it is expensive, and it is definitely something I hope is revalued in the Enhancement Overhaul coming down the pipes. It really should be reduced in cost, with the healing penalty becoming both more apparent as the hp/heal values increase, and less necessary with the reduction of effects/situations which restrict regular healing. Certainly for people who have unlocked various Twist options, it becomes much less important, meaning its time is numbered without a reevaluation. Eventually, even I would likely take advantage of those options instead, to finally free those 6 AP back up, though admittedly I'd rather play other characters than work solely to make that change. All in due time I suppose.

With the increase to healing amp itemization, and the addition of epic destinies which can duplicate or stack with different build options, its definitely something to give up in the coming changes without new attention to scaling its cost more properly. For now though, assuming it gets fixed, its something I will likely keep... though I may well be the minority in choosing to eat the 12 AP total on it. Certainly something like 2/3/4 or even 2/2/2 is more appropriate in the contemporary game environment.

[Feather_of_Sun]

No. You'll have to excuse me for telling a developer that he's wrong, but you're wrong. Please do the math again and see that:

Case 1: Healer's Friend adds to base healing. Heal amp is: (0.5+HF)*HA where HA = multiplicative healing amp sources such as gear (HA > 1) and HF = healer's friend bonus, as a fraction (0.15 for 15%)

Case 2: Healer's Friend multiplies as healing amp. Heal amp is: (0.5)*HA*(1+HF).

Difference Case 1 - Case 2 = HA*[(0.5+HF) - (0.5*(1+HF))] = HA*HF/2

If the difference is negative, then the bugged healer's friend implementation is better. The difference is only negative if the healer's friend bonus is negative, which never happens because it's a bonus.

You're right. =)
I didn't do any math on it, instead I just made a quick assumption, which was wrong. You're indeed right, and multiplicative stacking Healer's Friend will never catch up with the base increase.
And now, in my shame, I'll stop wasting my time on the forums and get back to fixing bugs!

[AtomicMew]

Interestingly enough, that means it's a buff for warforged with high enough amplification (who reach over 100% total before this enhancement is taken into account), but for anyone with less, it certainly does have a negative impact.

As MrMech stated, the change has decreased total healing amp for ALL warforged characters, regardless of how much they have. Consider two cases:

Case 1 low heal amp (say ~10%)
Before change: (.5 + .15) * (1.1) = .715
After change: .5 *1.15 * 1.1 = .6325

Case 2 high heal amp (~500%)
Before change: (.5 + .15) * (5) = 3.25
After change: .5 *1.15 * 5 = 2.875

Mathematically, it's easy to explain why this is the case. (.5 + .15) > .5*1.15 and so .65x > .575x for all x possible healing amp values.

[Eladiun]

you're right. =)
i didn't do any math on it, instead i just made a quick assumption, which was wrong. You're indeed right, and multiplicative stacking healer's friend will never catch up with the base increase.
And now, in my shame, i'll stop wasting my time on the forums and get back to fixing bugs!

+1

[meathook2008]

Hello MRMechMan,
I've tried investigating this, and in every test I attempted, Healer's Friend was resulting in the proper amount of healing.

Could you please submit a bug report detailing pertinent information, such as your character level, what your total percentage of healing amplification should be, your equipment/enhancements contributing to it, and your actual observed percentage of healing amplification?

If you can include your character name, account name, and server, then our Quality Assurance team can also grab a local copy of your character, which will be extremely helpful for finding steps to reproduce the problem.

You can use the bug reporting page here: http://forums.ddo.com/new_bug.php

Thanks!

Yes I have read your other posts where you say you were wrong..... VERY wrong....

BUT STILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This has been told to KOOKIE since PHASE 2 OF THE BETA..... I have bug reported it EVERY TIME!

We had a WONDERFUL break down of it... how each tier wasnt functioning correctly.

And please, telling a dev how a game mechanic works is sad. Just DDOWIKI it, the FORUMLA IS ON THE HEALING AMP PAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*ends rage*

In all seriousness..... a 20% lost of healing amp for my WF pally makes me sad. I was going to buy WF and keep him that way, but he is about to TR out of it as soon as the enchantment pass comes... He looks lonely for never logging into the server since update (with expection to become a bank mule).

US melee warfordged busted our humps to get great healing amp. having 145 (pre fix to stance of valor) Was great... being stuck at 123% is not cool.

[scoobmx]

I don't usually play Warforged characters, so was unaware that it formerly added to the base healing vulnerability, rather than stacking multiplicative like all other sources of amplification.

I also wanted to comment on this. Is there a single developer that DOES play warforged characters? The lack of docent love over the past 3 (or 4?) years seems to suggest 'no'. This worries me because it means designing items, enhancements, destinies, mechanics, and quests for warforged players will always be an afterthought at best, and forgotten at worst. I would rather have one of the testers or designers maybe assigned specifically to play various warforged toons.

[Schmoe]

You're right. =)
I didn't do any math on it, instead I just made a quick assumption, which was wrong. You're indeed right, and multiplicative stacking Healer's Friend will never catch up with the base increase.
And now, in my shame, I'll stop wasting my time on the forums and get back to fixing bugs!

Bah, math never solves anything anyway!

[Scraap]

Is there a list of how effects are supposed to work written down somewhere?

If not, shouldn't there be?

Doubtful, or if so, really doubtful it's up to date in terms of game-mechanic interactivity.

Would say 95% of my recent spit-takes have been due to side effects of interlocking systems. (The rest of course, being crit-nerfs)*.

*with apologies for mathy-stuff.

[maddong]

Here is an easy fix to warforged and warforged tanks for play balance:

Remove the 50% base.
Calculate healing amp the same as fleshies.
When the healing is applied subtract 0.5 from the multiplier.
Eg monk 11(+30)/paladin 6 (+10) warforged healer friend III (+25) would have:
1.3 * 1.1 * 1.25 -0.5 = 1.2875 amp
instead of 0.89375 amp currently or 1.0725 before the nerf (1.3 * 1.1 * 1.25 * 0.5 currently or 0.75 * 1.3 * 1.1 prior to the nerf).

[Thorin2001]

I'll track down what changed, and see if we can get it fixed back to how it was ASAP for you guys.

I can't tell how happy I am to finally read this...
Now off you go and fix this, FoS

[fyrst.grok]

I don't usually play Warforged characters, so was unaware that it formerly added to the base healing vulnerability, rather than stacking multiplicative like all other sources of amplification.

Really cool to hear you guys recognize the bug and I'm looking forward to be able to play my fvs again.

That said I think a few of you devs should roll a non repairing wf and see just how gimped they feel compared to fleshies now that you're raising the cost of them.. Because frankly.. 995 tp is too much for this race now.
They don't really have any advantages in melee even though they lore wise were designed to be soldiers. In stead they're stuck with subpar docents and horrible healability.

I'm hoping all this will be changed with the enhancement pass, so the p2p race once again becomes a contender when making a toon.

[LordTigerDawn]

This is a enhancement problem. I very much doubt it will be fixed before the enhancement overhaul, and having said that since it does not work now I fully expect it is now gone permanently but they are not allowed to tell you that as it is future development.

Or they have changed it to an autogrant ability for the WF race, and since we are not on the new system yet you cannot get autogrant abilities.

Either way, I fully expect you need to change and accept that is might be gone forever.

[shadowspeaker]

(Snip) I don't usually play Warforged characters, so was unaware ........

Feather I on behalf of all those who play Warforged request that you play a WF. Start at lvl 1 go all the way to 20. Play an arane, a melee, a divine and a specialist.

This will give youa better understanding of some of the things that are lacking/bugged.

When HOrcs came out they took all of the melee unique stuff from WF, MOtUD took the racial resists, and it has been a long time since a original Docent has been added to the game.

Maybe someone is looking at this and it will be fixed in the enhancement pass.

I hope that there is someone on staff who plays each race.

[THAC0]

I think it'd be pretty sad if it was the latter. WF aren't exactly the most overperforming or welcomed race right now anyway. :/

They really never have since the game went live. I can't even count how many times Clerics flat out say, "I'm not healing you" or "You are on your own, cuz you suck up too much of my spell points."

So none of this is new, or surprising to me. Anyone who heals me I tell them thank you and that I appreciate it. Otherwise, I take care of myself.

[MartinusWyllt]

Maybe add a racial enhancement line along the lines of the helf dilettante allowing access to repair/reconstruct scroll use?

[PurdueDave]

Honestly, considering just how much the net multiplier swings, and how obviously twitchy even a minor change has, I'd consider revisiting the entire healing amp stacking method.

'Course, if you do, bring a fire extinguisher.

It should have happened with the spellpower change.