Horoth's 850 disentergrate - not just on Elite

[Ape_Man]

So the spell power changes really borked this. When we saw a few people get killed on elite from the 850+ disintegrate we laughed about it and just decided we'll bring "real" tanks into elite and not 700 HP monks.

But then last night . . . my fighter who was at about 900 HP (currently a Kensai but was in Sentinel) got one-shotted on hard.

Wasn't stunned so i didn't get the extra 50% damage. Happened too fast to get the combat logs screenshotted.


For now we can twist in Dragonhide so we can't fail a fort save, but Turbine . .. is this WAI?

[Shade]

Monsters actaully don't get any real spell power. They can only get maximize, or empower or both.

In the case of Horoth, he has both, on all difficulties.

The thing that changed was due to player request: Maximize and Empower were made stronger. Be careful what we ask for I guess.

New Horoth max disintegrate:
40d3+120 at caster level 20
(160 - 240) damage
New Maximize: +150%
New Empower: +75%
= +225% damage
160 x 3.25 = 520
240 x 3.25 = 780
So his damage range is now 520 to 780
If your seeing disintegrates over 780, its a bug.. I don't believe it tho, SS or it never happened. I tanked him a cpl times since the update and rolled my share of 1s, the damage was always within this range.

Personally tanked this on elite the other night, was a joke for my lvl22 epic tank (you may say hes overlvl, but the raid is technically 22 on elite). Not that I expected otherwise. Clrs kept me up with wands, ended the raid with zero deaths on part1/3 and clerics at 75% remaining sp. I noticed my PRR worked against the dots, so it was easier then ever.

And yes, the increase to max and empower are WAI, they are listed clearly in the release notes. So are challenging hard and elite raids. Give normal a shot, the save DC is very low on norm, so even at a high dmg, some decent rolls should get you through it.

The only way to reduce it, would be to nerf disintegrate, or reduce max and empower, which would affect players negatively.

Thought I guess they could just take away his empower on normal, so wed get:
240 x 2.5 = 600 max damage. (plus lower save DC).

Wasn't stunned so i didn't get the extra 50% damage. Happened too fast to get the combat logs screenshotted.

Players don't take an extra 50% damage when helpless. They take:
Hard: +15% damage
Elite: +20% damage
Epic: +25% damage (mm no epic mode anymore, probably the max is +20% now)

Also horoth cannot cast spells during his blasphemy stun (which I also dont think makes you helpless). He can only melee. Greater shout also doesnt make you helpless, I dont think he has any way of doing that except ability damage from poison/disease.

For now we can twist in Dragonhide so we can't fail a fort save.

While the +6 fort save may help you, the "no fail on a 1" part is currently broken.

[redspecter23]

I think they should apply the same line of thinking here that they did with heal and mass heal. Horoth (and some others) are doing far more damage now than they were pre update so they should get a negative % modifier to their spell power to compensate. It's only fair.

[Shade]

I think they should apply the same line of thinking here that they did with heal and mass heal. Horoth (and some others) are doing far more damage now than they were pre update so they should get a negative % modifier to their spell power to compensate. It's only fair.

To implement what you your asking for is - the only way for it to happen is for casters who use disintegrate to get nerfed. Players and monsters do have to share the same rules on spells.(aside from the obvious lack of SP costs/concentration checks on monster)

I don't see any issue with the difficulty of hard and elite tod. With the massively increased strength of epic players, and the fact the raids rated at epicl lvl on hard and elite, it seems only appropriate that it got harder.

Normal like I said, could get a drop by removing his empower. No need to nerf sorcerers who like to use disintegrate because a raids a bit tougher.

They dont have any tech to give monsters spell power, or reduce it as I said.

[redspecter23]

To implement what you your asking for is - the only way for it to happen is for casters who use disintegrate to get nerfed. Players and monsters do have to share the same rules on spells.(aside from the obvious lack of SP costs/concentration checks on monster)

I don't see any issue with the difficulty of hard and elite tod. With the massively increased strength of epic players, and the fact the raids rated at epicl lvl on hard and elite, it seems only appropriate that it got harder.

Normal like I said, could get a drop by removing his empower. No need to nerf sorcerers who like to use disintegrate because a raids a bit tougher.

They dont have any tech to give monsters spell power, or reduce it as I said.

Players and mobs most definitely do not have to share the same rules for spells. If they did, then players would have infinite SP and no concentration checks for starters. It may or may not be the right decision, but giving a mob a negative spell power modifier without making it a blanket rule for all mobs and players is completely possible.

You say they don't have the tech to give monsters spell power but have already said that they have maximize and empower which are essentially spell power. Just make another feat that has a negative modifier and apply it to certain mobs, done. Could it be easier to just remove his empower? Probably, but the ability to adjust with greater variables than just maximize and empower would be a powerful tool to have for future issues. As you mentioned, hard and elite are probably fine as is. 1000+ hp players with massive PRR are becoming the norm. I don't have any issue with it being difficult for non tanks to tank Horoth but normal Tod should be doable with non epic toons. If the damage is as high as the OP suggests, then a modification may be in order.

[djl]

Monsters actaully don't get any real spell power. They can only get maximize, or empower or both.

In the case of Horoth, he has both, on all difficulties.

The thing that changed was due to player request: Maximize and Empower were made stronger. Be careful what we ask for I guess.

New Horoth max disintegrate:
40d3+120 at caster level 20
(160 - 240) damage
New Maximize: +150%
New Empower: +75%
= +225% damage
160 x 3.25 = 520
240 x 3.25 = 780
So his damage range is now 520 to 780
If your seeing disintegrates over 780, its a bug.. I don't believe it tho, SS or it never happened. I tanked him a cpl times since the update and rolled my share of 1s, the damage was always within this range.

Personally tanked this on elite the other night, was a joke for my lvl22 epic tank (you may say hes overlvl, but the raid is technically 22 on elite). Not that I expected otherwise. Clrs kept me up with wands, ended the raid with zero deaths on part1/3 and clerics at 75% remaining sp. I noticed my PRR worked against the dots, so it was easier then ever.

And yes, the increase to max and empower are WAI, they are listed clearly in the release notes. So are challenging hard and elite raids. Give normal a shot, the save DC is very low on norm, so even at a high dmg, some decent rolls should get you through it.

The only way to reduce it, would be to nerf disintegrate, or reduce max and empower, which would affect players negatively.

Thought I guess they could just take away his empower on normal, so wed get:
240 x 2.5 = 600 max damage. (plus lower save DC).


Players don't take an extra 50% damage when helpless. They take:
Hard: +15% damage
Elite: +20% damage
Epic: +25% damage (mm no epic mode anymore, probably the max is +20% now)

Also horoth cannot cast spells during his blasphemy stun (which I also dont think makes you helpless). He can only melee. Greater shout also doesnt make you helpless, I dont think he has any way of doing that except ability damage from poison/disease.


While the +6 fort save may help you, the "no fail on a 1" part is currently broken.

I suppose that's also how Harry is doing 500+ damage on hard with his Meteor Swarms?

[LeLoric]

Players don't take an extra 50% damage when helpless. They take:
Hard: +15% damage
Elite: +20% damage
Epic: +25% damage (mm no epic mode anymore, probably the max is +20% now)

Also horoth cannot cast spells during his blasphemy stun (which I also dont think makes you helpless). He can only melee. Greater shout also doesnt make you helpless, I dont think he has any way of doing that except ability damage from poison/disease.

Power word stun. Had him chain this and a disintegrate several months ago for 800 points of dmg well before update 4 changes.

[Ape_Man]

I'll see if I can find it but somebody did post a screenshot of the Stornreaver breaking 800 on disintegrate.

[Shade]

I suppose that's also how Harry is doing 500+ damage on hard with his Meteor Swarms?

Aye.. He also has max and emp on all difficulties:
The (4) meteors explode on impact, dealing 6d3+18 points of fire damage (a successful Reflex save reduces the fire damage by half) and 2d3+6 points of bludgeoning damage (no save) to targets in the area.

= 24-36 fire each
= 8-12 bludgeoning each
= 96 to 144 fire total
= 32 to 48 bludgeoning total

*3.25:
312 to 468 fire total
104 to 156 bludgeoning total
= Up to 624 total damage. (if you failed all 4 saves with no fire resist and arraetrikos rolled against impossible odds)

Though a more realistic average if you failed all 4 saves with 30 fire resist:
67.5 each fire average after 30 resist =
270 fire
130 bludgeoning
= 400

[Shade]

I'll see if I can find it but somebody did post a screenshot of the Stornreaver breaking 800 on disintegrate.

Maybe.. Think his thunderclap does make you helpless.

780 * 1.2 = 936 damage heh.

Power word stun. Had him chain this and a disintegrate several months ago for 800 points of dmg well before update 4 changes.

Yea forgot that one.

Though the thing about tanking any serious boss is: You should be getting regular heals scrolls from at least a cpl people.. And theyre casting animations arent that fast, so the chances of them getting off both a stun, and then a big disintegrate before you get any heals, should be extremely minimal.
(And heal removes both power word stun and thunderclap stun).

[Ape_Man]

Had light monks, there was no stun.

[tylerdurden77]

Yeah, i got hit with a 841 point disintegrate by the stormreaver today on an elite reaver. I always keep my HPs topped off cause i want to survive a disintegrate which used to hit for about 350-450. So guess now you have to be a level20+ raging barb, SD, or a DoS to not be one-shotted on a level 16 raid. Does not compute.

[Elegorne]

*snip*
Personally tanked this on elite the other night, was a joke for my lvl22 epic tank (you may say hes overlvl, but the raid is technically 22 on elite). Not that I expected otherwise. Clrs kept me up with wands, ended the raid with zero deaths on part1/3 and clerics at 75% remaining sp. I noticed my PRR worked against the dots, so it was easier then ever.
*snip*

/kneel in recognition of my complete and utter unworthiness.....highlighted in red to add due awesomeness & uberocity

[sirgog]

Shade, you are wrong.

Heroic Elite mobs that had Maximize and Empower pre-U14 are definitely doing 425% outgoing spell damage. This has been tested by several people including Vanshilar, the most reliable source of info on statistics on these forums.

Vanshilar has a screenshot of the Abbot (who has no stuns) Disintegrating for 839 or so and Horrid Wilting hitting for numbers that also prove the point. A version of this is also the cause of the 600 damage Disintegrates in Gianthold elites.

On non-Elite difficulties, it's not clear, but the Abbot went from 200/200/250% outgoing spell damage to 200/250/425% and this is absolutely certain.