A Stab at Rogue Assassin

[SornStarguh]

Hey everyone. I've made my way back to DDO and I'm looking for some input on my latest attempt at a rogue build.

I've run the full gambit of rogue failures. You know, neglecting Str/DPS, expecting to get traps with no gear, no UMD, and all that other good stuff. After doing some looking around here, I've decided to get a game plan this time and try out an assassin rogue.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Drow Male
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 21
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    16
Dexterity            16                    28
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         16                    20
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             10                    12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 20
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    32
Bluff                 4                    30
Concentration         2                     3
Diplomacy             4                    24
Disable Device        7                    28
Haggle                0                     1
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  7                    40
Intimidate            0                     1
Jump                  5                    25
Listen               -1                     2
Move Silently         7                    40
Open Lock             7                    32
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                3                     5
Search                7                    30
Spot                  3                    25
Swim                  2                     3
Tumble                4                    10
Use Magic Device      4                    24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I


Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Attack I


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage II


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Attack II


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV


Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking III

I have a few questions and concerns before I roll this guy however.

1. I like the 16 INT but something keeps telling me its too high. The reason I went 16 is I want to max UMD, bluff, and diplomacy as well as the other skills we have to max. I ended up with more skill points than I think I need. On the other hand, I heard it helps with landing assassinate and its giving me a nicer search/disable mod.

2. I'm not hitting 30 DEX only 28 and thats with a +3 tome. I think the reason why is I'm not going 18 DEX at creation. Is this something to even worry about?

3. Is taking subtle backstabbing 4 too much? Can I get away with lvl2?

4. I've taken the faster sneaking route this time. I usually run with Rogue skill boost and I see some others that do the same but I found I only really used it when I'm about to attempt a disable. Whats your thoughts on what we can pick as "freebies"?

5. Am I waiting too late in the build to take Power attack(lv15)?

6. If I'm determined to keep Drow, would a STR/kopesh build be as viable as DEX? I don't think it would but then again I'm a noob. I've already accepted the fact he is not gonna be the hardest hitting rogue ever but I would like him to pull his weight and maybe someone elses.

The reason I ask all this is because I've really never seen any DDO outside of the marketplace. I always re-roll around level 6-7. I want to take this one the distance and see some higher content and at least be good on paper.

Thanks for taking a look at my mess.

[Uska]

Int is very good for an assassin I wouldnt take power attack I would take persission(spelling) and cant do that and power attack at the same time looks fine since at 20 you want to have a base 21 dex(starting tomes level ups) for the epic feat improved sneak attack or whatever its name is.

For an assassin its in my opinion int/dex/con/str/whatever in that order of importance. I wouldnt go khopesh my drow rogue does plenty with what she has already at 20

[wax_on_wax_off]

For fear order I would go:
Precision, Toughness, TWF'ing, ITWF, IC:P, GTWF, ? (1 free feat can be quickdraw, hamstring or something else).
If at all possible I would go half-elf to hit exact same int as drow (with artificer dilettante) but much better in general.
For stats I would go:
14 str, 16 dex +2 levels +3 tome for IPS, 14 con, 16 int +4 levels, 8 wis, 10 cha
Until you get TWF'ing just use a single rapier or quarterstaff
At 6 take either acrobat (for better quarterstaff use until you get ITWf'ing at 9) or mechanic (same as acrobat but with a repeater instead).
Don't take assassin until level 12 (assassin II)
Skill Boost I is for UMD usually to heal yourself or raise/heal someone else
Subtle backstabbing is for level 20, bluff/diplo work fine until then

[SornStarguh]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm not seeing how precision comes into play unless it can straight up replace weapon finesse. If so I'll have to check it out.

Half-elf looks solid as well. Just got that race the other day and haven't really delved into it yet.

[Aerendil]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm not seeing how precision comes into play unless it can straight up replace weapon finesse. If so I'll have to check it out.

Half-elf looks solid as well. Just got that race the other day and haven't really delved into it yet.

Curious about this as well. The to-hit would be horrendous, and I'm not convinced that +5% to-hit from Precision would make up for that. Could be wrong, though... but your to-hit and damage with an unboosted str (or dex) would be quite low, and using eMG x 2 isn't always viable. And the heroic levelling experience would be horrible :/

If it is viable somehow, then TWF/ITWF/GTWF, Precision, Toughness, Imp.Crit, and PL:SoS would be my picks, with eImp. Sneak as one of my epic feats, and the other as....whatever, I guess.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Curious about this as well. The to-hit would be horrendous, and I'm not convinced that +5% to-hit from Precision would make up for that. Could be wrong, though... but your to-hit and damage with an unboosted str (or dex) would be quite low, and using eMG x 2 isn't always viable. And the heroic levelling experience would be horrible :/

If it is viable somehow, then TWF/ITWF/GTWF, Precision, Toughness, Imp.Crit, and PL:SoS would be my picks, with eImp. Sneak as one of my epic feats, and the other as....whatever, I guess.

With the way the new AC system works weapon finesse is worse than ever. Just stack multiple AB increasers and you'll be fine (heroism/bulls/ship buffs/cannith accuracy goggles or trinket/bless clicky/high + weapons/guild augment accuracy/rage/divine favour or recitation/divine power or madstone/titans grip/assassins poison).

[Hafeal]

I am still getting a read on feats with my TR rogue multi-class build.

I agree with wax that WF may not be worth it, though. I am still figuring out if Dodge and related lines are worth it with the changes to AC. I like how they work for my build now, but I am not at end-game yet.

Keep in mind, we have enhancement changes on the horizon as well, and they will have an interaction with feats and how they get used later this year.

[SornStarguh]

Thanks again for replies. Very helpful. I'm watching this thread pretty close and have yet to create the rogue in question.

What I am gathering from this is that there have been some recent, and most likely drastic, changes made to DDO or at least to AC. I'm making another build now without WF and taking precision as the first feat. I gotta be honest, on paper its pretty scary. Prolly just the fact I always use DEX rogues and therefore have taken WF.

So I'm reworkin this build just now and it occurs to me. If I'm not takin WF and if there are changes to AC, does this mean I really don't even need to pump up dex?! Just enough for the feats I want? It must be so or he wouldn't have said 16 INT and add +4 with lvl ups cause I was like, "Huh?". I think I see whats goin on around here now.

Ok it's back to the builder for me.

Keep in mind, we have enhancement changes on the horizon as well, and they will have an interaction with feats and how they get used later this year.

This sounds interesting. Now seems more and more like a good time to get back in DDO.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Yep, 16 base dex+2 level ups+3 tome=21 for improved sneak attack (epic feat that adds +3d6 sneak attack).

[SornStarguh]

OK heres what I've come up with on the 2nd attempt.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Drow Male
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 17
Will: 6

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             14                 16                   16
Dexterity            16                 21                   21
Constitution         14                 16                   16
Intelligence         16                 22                   24
Wisdom                8                 10                   10
Charisma             10                 12                   12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 20
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               7                 28                   29
Bluff                 4                 24                   31
Concentration         2                  3                    4
Diplomacy             4                 24                   25
Disable Device        7                 30                   31
Haggle                0                  1                    2
Heal                 -1                  0                    1
Hide                  7                 28                   38
Intimidate            0                  1                    2
Jump                  4                 26                   27
Listen               -1                  0                    3
Move Silently         7                 28                   38
Open Lock             7                 28                   29
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                3                  7                    8
Search                7                 30                   33
Spot                  3                 23                   26
Swim                  2                  3                    4
Tumble                5                 10                   11
Use Magic Device      4                 24                   25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I


Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Precision
Enhancement: Rogue Item Defense I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Attack I


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage II


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Attack II


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking III


Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Item Defense II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III


Level 18 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Item Defense III
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking IV


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: INT
Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow
Enhancement: Improved Hide III
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently III
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I

Kind of excited now to try something other than WF. Had alot of extra enhancement points compared to previous build without having to take DEX enchancements.

Taking a serious look at half-elf now but the problem is I don't have 32 point builds yet.