Mob Trip Fixed. Next- Evade?

[LordMond63]

I saw in the release notes for U14 that the Trip and Improved Trip rate for mobs had been looked at and dialed back significantly. Excellent job on both recognizing the problem and in fixing it.

Now I think it's time to look at mob's Evade. Once I started running quests in the mid-teens levels and up, the incidence of mobs- and I'm talking just regular 'trash' mobs, not mini-bosses or bosses here- Evade my Air Sorc's various lightning spells (bolt, ball and chain) a disproportionately high amount of time. It's gotten to the point where I only cast my high damage spells once, see mob after mob Evade, and then switch to Electric Loop and Force Missiles. At least I know they WILL hit and do SOME damage, thus not totally wasting my spell points.

I'd ask that the Evade rate be looked into and, if found to be as high as I think it is, dialed back at least somewhat. Keep in mind that the mobs get a Reflex save for half damage in all cases anyway, so they have a built-in way to minimize damage.

[shadereaper33]

As a fellow sorc player, I really like the variety of mobs that have evasion. Evasion on enemies means that you have to pick and choose which spells to cast against which enemies. If you are constantly getting evaded, then you need to either broaden you spell selection, or increase you DC's, if not both.

In summary, /not signed. Mob evasion is fine as it is.

[morticianjohn]

evasion mobs generally have less HP than non evasive mobs. This is a challenge for your sorcerer but some sorcerers don't have this problem by using a variety of no save spells and/or spells which require a different save (not a reflex save spell). Adapt. Learn which spells you can utilize for these types of mobs and which will be SP effective. Example: Frost lance is a fort save spell which typically will one shot enemies for a water savant at level 11-16. Polar ray has no save so maybe you could dip into the ice line a bit on your electric sorc to find those spells which will help shore up your weaknesses.

[Vellrad]

At high level, hard and elite, 90% of mobs got evasion.
Something needs to be done with it.

[arminius]

I tear up things on my level 16 1 Sorc Past Life 1 Wiz Past Life Evocation / Greater Evocation Sorc that on my level 20 first life Conj/Necro Wiz puts up Evade left and right.

I've come to the conclusion from this and other evidence that at least one past life may still be optional on melees but is strictly mandatory for casters, and is that way by Turbine's design.

[LordMond63]

Sorry, but the door was opened for such a change when enough melees complained that they were spending more time on their backs fighting mobs than on their feet. Turbine made a necessary change to balance the playing field.

The situation here is pretty much the same, except the classes affected are casters rather than melee and the mob ability is Evade rather than Trip. Why is one change more (or less) necessary than the other?

And for the record: I supported the change to Trip even though most of my characters are casters. I am objective enough to recognize a broken facet regardless of whether I am personally affected or not.

[Jay203]

i can't agree with this suggestion
as a spell caster, you have debuffs as well as no-save spells at your disposal to counteract the evasion by reducing their saves or by using spells that target other save types

the reason why the trip was so bad is due to the hyper inflation of the enemy stats as well as their extremely low cooldown on top of the ac not mattering much (unless you built specifically for it). this in the end causes a melee who's surrounded by 2+ enemy with trip or even just a single wolf/worg to stay on their ass the whole time due to the enemy spamming trips

it's a completely different playing field, you can't honestly ask for dumbing down the enemy defences just so casters can go roflstomp through contents with no worries

[LordMond63]

Still, the fact remains that melees complained rightfully that a mob behavior was making their lives miserable and thus they prevailed upon and received from Turbine a fix, yet now they seem to be almost universally opposed when a caster asks for a similar fix for a mob behavior that is making their (and it's not just me) lives miserable. The fix to Trip was more than warranted. A fix to Evade is equally more than warranted.

In the case of my Air Savant Sorceror, I would reckon that her effectiveness has been reduced by roughly 75% on Epic content, as the only one of her Lightning spells that hits reliably is Electric Loop (Eldar's Electric Surge does as well, but that is single-target). Lightning Bolt- evaded. Ball Lightning- evaded. Chain Lightning- evaded. Now it's true that I could just respec to another Savant line. Acid has several spells that cannot be evaded. But the point here is that melees didn't have to respec their characters in order to work around a flawed mechanic. They asked for and received a fix. I think I'm well within line to expect the same thing. I don't want Evade removed- just reduced from a 90% prevalence down to maybe 60%.

And in a semi-related complaint....can Turbine please do something about mobs making a successful reflex save when they are Held, Stone, Dancing, Tripped, Stunned or otherwise incapacitated? It sure seems to me that incapacitation should preclude a saving throw entirely.

[Jay203]

you seems to not get it at all...
the chain tripping from the mobs was something that even caster complained **** loads of, them being low-str and low dex makes it even harder for them to avoid

trying to nerf evasion for enemies just so casters can rofl stomp everything with no tactics except just spam damage spells is not needed AT ALL
please learn to use the other spells to compliment your main spells, they're there for a reason...

[Vellrad]

you seems to not get it at all...
the chain tripping from the mobs was something that even caster complained **** loads of, them being low-str and low dex makes it even harder for them to avoid

trying to nerf evasion for enemies just so casters can rofl stomp everything with no tactics except just spam damage spells is not needed AT ALL
please learn to use the other spells to compliment your main spells, they're there for a reason...

Players can only evade when wearing light armour, mobs however don't have this restriction. Each caster, meatshield and healer got evasion.

[Fefnir_2011]

My cleric agrees with you to some extent. Spiders with evasion? When did they get rogue/monk levels?

[count_spicoli]

Not signed.

hmmm. My sword on my ftr never gets an evasion. Maybe drag a melee along to help with evasion mobs

[Jay203]

Players can only evade when wearing light armour, mobs however don't have this restriction. Each caster, meatshield and healer got evasion.

oh rly?
how do you know what they're wearing??

[Jasparion]

As a fellow sorc player, I really like the variety of mobs that have evasion. Evasion on enemies means that you have to pick and choose which spells to cast against which enemies. If you are constantly getting evaded, then you need to either broaden you spell selection, or increase you DC's, if not both.

In summary, /not signed. Mob evasion is fine as it is.

Evasion is fine if it is obvious from the mob name. Rogue/Thief/Assassin types sure. Soldier/Wizard/Cleric types no. Wolves/Cats yes. Ooze/Dragons no. Etc.

We will be given some idea before hand whether we should use a Reflex resisting spell on them, or whether we should use an Insta-kill because their Reflex may be high but their Fort is low, or maybe use a Bolt or Ray or something else which cant be reisted.

To date I'd say this is done fairly well, but I wouldnt be surprised if there were some examples where mobs are evading when really they shouldnt.

[shadereaper33]

Still, the fact remains that melees complained rightfully that a mob behavior was making their lives miserable and thus they prevailed upon and received from Turbine a fix, yet now they seem to be almost universally opposed when a caster asks for a similar fix for a mob behavior that is making their (and it's not just me) lives miserable. The fix to Trip was more than warranted. A fix to Evade is equally more than warranted.

In the case of my Air Savant Sorceror, I would reckon that her effectiveness has been reduced by roughly 75% on Epic content, as the only one of her Lightning spells that hits reliably is Electric Loop (Eldar's Electric Surge does as well, but that is single-target). Lightning Bolt- evaded. Ball Lightning- evaded. Chain Lightning- evaded. Now it's true that I could just respec to another Savant line. Acid has several spells that cannot be evaded. But the point here is that melees didn't have to respec their characters in order to work around a flawed mechanic. They asked for and received a fix. I think I'm well within line to expect the same thing. I don't want Evade removed- just reduced from a 90% prevalence down to maybe 60%.

And in a semi-related complaint....can Turbine please do something about mobs making a successful reflex save when they are Held, Stone, Dancing, Tripped, Stunned or otherwise incapacitated? It sure seems to me that incapacitation should preclude a saving throw entirely.

You seem to be missing a few key points here. 1)When a melee, or any one else for that matter, is tripped and on their ass, they cannot do ANYTHING. 2)When a caster casts a spell with a reflex save against a mob that has evasion, they can still do other things. 3)Just because you are an air savant doesn't mean you can't have 1 or 2 other spells ready specifically to deal mobs that have evasion. Be flexible, adapt to the situation, and overcome the challenges you are facing. My ice savant has issues with evasion mobs sometimes as well. I have spells loaded to deal with these mobs. I do not come on the forums asking for a fully function game mechanic to be nerfed because i am unwilling to adapt to the situation. This is very different from the trip-spamming situation melee's were facing, as they could not adapt to the situation, as there was nothing they could do to avoid the trip or respond to it.

[msdesign]

In theory, I like the idea of making animals and other mobs Trip players less often. But I've been playing DDO after U14 and honestly, I've been tripped a LOT of times already. Doesn't seem they reduced Trip attempts.

I have an air savant too, and I see mobs evading light and wind spells quite often, but they end up dead anyway, I have some secondary spells to make sure they fall on the ground... Don't think necessary any adjustment in Evading. Perhaps adjusting only on few select mobs, but not too many on them.

[Tshober]

/not signed

I don't think this is broken.

[LordMond63]

you seems to not get it at all...
the chain tripping from the mobs was something that even caster complained **** loads of, them being low-str and low dex makes it even harder for them to avoid

trying to nerf evasion for enemies just so casters can rofl stomp everything with no tactics except just spam damage spells is not needed AT ALL
please learn to use the other spells to compliment your main spells, they're there for a reason...

Well then I guess the Trip fix really wasn't necessary.

All melees needed to do was to figure out some other way to damage foes while laying on their backs. Right?

What you seem not to understand is that, even though I do have access to other spells, becoming a Savant of any type means that I give up a high degree of versatility in order to concentrate on that one damage line. In my case, while lightning spells can be enormously damaging, my fire and force spells are mediocre and my acid spells are actually penalized. I have no problem with that; you've got to give to get. However, when my primary damage spells are being evaded roughly 80% of the time and I'm forced to fall back on Force Missiles as my most damaging spell, I'm pretty much a waste of a party slot. A Wizard is of more benefit because he has more spells slots and can change them at the next shrine.

Tell you what....I'm going to call for a 'fix' in U-15 that makes most high level mobs immune to certain weapon types, starting with slashing weapons. I guess you melees can just learn to use other weapons with absolutely no loss in your damage capability, right? I mean, all you Barbarians out there are as proficient with piercing weapons as you are slashing.....or at least according to some you should be.

[LordMond63]

You seem to be missing a few key points here. 1)When a melee, or any one else for that matter, is tripped and on their ass, they cannot do ANYTHING. 2)When a caster casts a spell with a reflex save against a mob that has evasion, they can still do other things. 3)Just because you are an air savant doesn't mean you can't have 1 or 2 other spells ready specifically to deal mobs that have evasion. Be flexible, adapt to the situation, and overcome the challenges you are facing. My ice savant has issues with evasion mobs sometimes as well. I have spells loaded to deal with these mobs. I do not come on the forums asking for a fully function game mechanic to be nerfed because i am unwilling to adapt to the situation. This is very different from the trip-spamming situation melee's were facing, as they could not adapt to the situation, as there was nothing they could do to avoid the trip or respond to it.

Well of course they could adapt. Ever hear of ranged weapons?

Now the question is, How credible would that adaptation be? My answer is: not at all credible.

But then neither is having an 80% evade rate on mobs.

It's not a "fully function[ing] game mechanic". It's a "partially- to fully-broken game mechanic", just as Trip was.

[sireric]

I have a bigger problem with enemies that are held/paralyzed/sleeping/dazed, or in any other way immobile that making reflex saves. I can deal with mobs with evasion, (They can't evade polar ray, or frost lance). But when they are held they should auto-fail reflex saves.

And I agree with Jay203, you have other spells to combat their evasion. Try dropping a solid fog, it slows their reflex saves.