Spell Resistance (is useless, lets fix)

[Mastikator]

Spell Resistance on player characters is virtually meaningless, it protects against almost nothing that isn't either A) has an easily acquirable blanket immunity or B) is a minor nuisance.
Spell Resistance on monsters only works against inta-kills and CC, giving an unfair advantage to nukers.

So I propose that Spell Resistance should work on damage spells too, mitigating 5% per point.
By this I mean that if a caster fails his roll against SR, each 1 point he fails by 5% of the spell damage is reduced (before any other mitigation).
So if a caster throws a fireball on a monster, the caster has spell penetration of 20 and rolls an 11, for a total of 31 against spell resistance, and the monster has 40 spell resistance, 40-31=9, 9*5%=45%, 45% of the damage is mitigated. If the fireball was going to do 300 damage, it instead deals only 165 damage. (300*(1-0.45))

This will mean that having Spell Resistance on a player will mean a chance to take less damage from spells, and make spell penetration important for nukers(sorcs/fvs) (that are op anyway).
Items with spell penetration will have actual value rather than being vendor garbage.

Thoughts?

[Therrias]

My monk now has spell resistance of around 40. It is not useless.

Also, nukers are overpowered?

(its an interesting, original idea...but I don't see it happening)

[Machination]

SR at epic levels 20-25 is really only useful if cast by that level of FVS or Cleric. You will get SR 32-37 for caster levels 20-25. So obviously this is much better than any gear or racial bonus for drow. Monk is only 2 points lower though, which is a big bonus to being a monk (diamond soul)

On my capped FVS, I cast mass SR as a mandatory buff. Yes, I always have it, always throw it on the party. It does make a difference. Even on EE difficulty I see mob spells not get past SR. It is not useless. It is just not as useful in its present gear applied max of SR 25 in levels 20-25 quests. I have not tested personally but 25 sounds a bit low for even the explorer areas.

I have not pulled the new "greater warding" or "superior warding" random loot yet (the SR25 stuff). Was this what you were referring to when you mentioned that SR on player characters is virtually meaningless?

Spell Resistance on player characters is virtually meaningless, it protects against almost nothing that isn't either A) has an easily acquirable blanket immunity or B) is a minor nuisance.
Spell Resistance on monsters only works against inta-kills and CC, giving an unfair advantage to nukers.

So I propose that Spell Resistance should work on damage spells too, mitigating 5% per point.
By this I mean that if a caster fails his roll against SR, each 1 point he fails by 5% of the spell damage is reduced (before any other mitigation).
So if a caster throws a fireball on a monster, the caster has spell penetration of 20 and rolls an 11, for a total of 31 against spell resistance, and the monster has 40 spell resistance, 40-31=9, 9*5%=45%, 45% of the damage is mitigated. If the fireball was going to do 300 damage, it instead deals only 165 damage. (300*(1-0.45))

This will mean that having Spell Resistance on a player will mean a chance to take less damage from spells, and make spell penetration important for nukers(sorcs/fvs) (that are op anyway).
Items with spell penetration will have actual value rather than being vendor garbage.

Thoughts?

[valarx]

I am ok with any spell that allowed for SR in the core PnP setting to be allowed SR in the DDO setting. Fireball is an example of a nuke that allows SR. This would also help to granulate out the different damage nukes. Casters will have to choose between SR ones and non-SR ones based on what they are facing.

However, with spell point conservation being what it is currently in game. Throwing SR on top of nukers might just break them. Spending 50-100 spell points on a spell that just gets resisted is pretty pricey. CCs and Necros are usually specced out for maximum SR since they don't have to worry as much about damage. Nukers would need to balance the two, which could leave them completely ineffectual.

[Hephaistor]

Spell Resistance on monsters only works against inta-kills and CC, giving an unfair advantage to nukers. So I propose that Spell Resistance should work on damage spells too, mitigating 5% per point.

Weapons ignore SR too, how unfair is that? And evasion does only work against nuking spells, if I follow your logic there should be a chance that evasion works on other spells too... and so on. At what point do you think everybody would agree that the game is "fair" now, even the Nitpicks?

[Mastikator]

[snip] It does make a difference. Even on EE difficulty I see mob spells not get past SR. It is not useless. It is just not as useful in its present gear applied max of SR 25 in levels 20-25 quests. I have not tested personally but 25 sounds a bit low for even the explorer areas.
[snip]

But what spells are there that aren't covered by blanket immunities (Fom, deathblock) that target SR, curse? Most of the spells you need to worry about are the damaging spells, and many of them offer no save.

[snip]. Throwing SR on top of nukers might just break them. Spending 50-100 spell points on a spell that just gets resisted is pretty pricey. CCs and Necros are usually specced out for maximum SR since they don't have to worry as much about damage. [snip]

I'm not taking about complete mitigation with SR, only 5% damage per point missed. You'd need to fail by 20 points for it be completely mitigated. Nukers would still be ahead of the game, but at least the victims of nukers (both players and mobs) would have SOME way of dealing with it short of having ridiculous hp.

Weapons ignore SR too, how unfair is that? And evasion does only work against nuking spells, if I follow your logic there should be a chance that evasion works on other spells too... and so on. [snip]

What? AC, PRR, Dodge, Concealment, Incorporeality, DR apply to weapons. Evasion builds is not available or viable to everyone, not all evocation damage spells let you make a reflex save. Being blasted with Searing Light in RWTD is deadly, and more importantly, there's no way to mitigate, there's no way to protect yourself. With a high spell resistance you might find yourself not dying.
My logic is going closer to the PnP mechanics that balanced the game, that DDO has for some reason decided to remove making the game LESS balanced.
I can understand that not everything in PnP can be translated, or should be, but stuff that makes things more balanced and less arbitrary should be kept, for example applying SR on non-conjuration damage spells.

[Skavenaps]

My logic is going closer to the PnP mechanics that balanced the game, that DDO has for some reason decided to remove making the game LESS balanced.

PnP rules balanced? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

oh my. really?

[valarx]

I'm not taking about complete mitigation with SR, only 5% damage per point missed. You'd need to fail by 20 points for it be completely mitigated. Nukers would still be ahead of the game, but at least the victims of nukers (both players and mobs) would have SOME way of dealing with it short of having ridiculous hp.

Fair point. I think there are a few things to consider:

1. With the additional calculation of SR, percentage difference, and final damage, AOE spells could introduce a larger amount of lag to the game than they already do.
2. The percentage calculation is outside the standard PnP rules. I'm not saying it is wrong, just that there will be a certain group who will balk at changing core rules (even though plenty have already been changed for DDO).

The all-or-nothing SR is likely to be less frustrating on AOE spells than on direct target damage spells. If you throw a fireball into a room and it hits 3 out of 5 creatures (you fail to penetrate the SR of two), then that's not terrible.

[Jiirix]

I would call no version of PnP D&D I played so far balanced in terms of character power and game mechanics. In my experience “nukers” are not more powerful then other magic users. There are situation they do better and situations they get the short end, but I can’t say that “nuking” has a great advantage just because most damage spells ignore SR. I can’t confirm that SR is completely useless for player characters either.

I am a bit curios, did you actually play a “nuker” in all the different game situation so you can tell they are OP by yourself? Or is this one of the many threads were people GUESS that something others classes get has to be unbalanced?

[Matuse]

Spell Resistance is SUPPOSED to work on almost all spells, including the direct damage spells that completely ignore it right now.

Turbine decided long ago to not have it be that way, and I've never understood why.

[V_mad_jester_V]

Fair point. I think there are a few things to consider:

1. With the additional calculation of SR, percentage difference, and final damage, AOE spells could introduce a larger amount of lag to the game than they already do.
2. The percentage calculation is outside the standard PnP rules. I'm not saying it is wrong, just that there will be a certain group who will balk at changing core rules (even though plenty have already been changed for DDO).

The all-or-nothing SR is likely to be less frustrating on AOE spells than on direct target damage spells. If you throw a fireball into a room and it hits 3 out of 5 creatures (you fail to penetrate the SR of two), then that's not terrible.

pnp players who are fanatical should reread their players hand books, cuz it states that they are not rules its not set in stone the books are a just a guidline, so house rules are house rules and thus cannot be challenged. Thats what i enjoyed about house rules, when i dm a game, players can use spider shells as armor, they can have w/e they wanted within reason. Hell I even let them collect sekele bones until they had enough to make armor or even weapons with. People gotta remember that the house rules is what truley makes pnp dnd. Not the players hand book, its a guide (as i said before) not way of life.

[Mastikator]

I am a bit curios, did you actually play a “nuker” in all the different game situation so you can tell they are OP by yourself? Or is this one of the many threads were people GUESS that something others classes get has to be unbalanced?

Played a sorc nuker to level 16 back when damage spells cost full SP. It was very powerful for virtually no effort, boring mind you, but ridiculously powerful. Things may be different now, but I'm not convinced that things are harder for nukers now, all the evidence I've seen suggest quite the opposite. ESPECIALLY monsters that nuke you, they've gone way into godmode, somethings got to be done.

[Tshober]

I don't think this is a good idea. My guess is it would render a damage build sorc totally useless in all purple boss fights. Nukers aleady have to deal with mobs that have very high evasion. Stack SR on top of that and I am very much afraid those classes would be badly broken.

[Pape_27]

<snip
giving an unfair advantage to nukers.

This makes no sense. Unfair advantage to nukers over whom?

<snip>

Thoughts?

Yes, please, for the love of the Lords of Kobol, do not implement another idea that will cause casters to have to swap in and out even more gear sets.

_

[Urist]

Speaking purely from a magic-logic standpoint, I can see how Spell Resistance would be useless against conjurations (and many evocations), where the target isn't affected by the magic itself, but what has been brought into being.
However, things like Magic Missile (pure magic), Holy Smite (divine magic), and the elemental and divine DoTs (trying to directly affect the target), I can see a person's SR giving some protection against.

pnp players who are fanatical should reread their players hand books, cuz it states that they are not rules its not set in stone the books are a just a guidline ... People gotta remember that the house rules is what truley makes pnp dnd. Not the players hand book, its a guide (as i said before) not way of life.

If the handbook is a guide, then the advice that it's just a guide is itself just a guide. So you're free to house-rule that out as well and, paradoxes aside, take the handbook as law.

[Phidius]

Spell Resistance on player characters is virtually meaningless, it protects against almost nothing that isn't either A) has an easily acquirable blanket immunity or B) is a minor nuisance.
Spell Resistance on monsters only works against inta-kills and CC, giving an unfair advantage to nukers.

So I propose that Spell Resistance should work on damage spells too, mitigating 5% per point.
By this I mean that if a caster fails his roll against SR, each 1 point he fails by 5% of the spell damage is reduced (before any other mitigation).
So if a caster throws a fireball on a monster, the caster has spell penetration of 20 and rolls an 11, for a total of 31 against spell resistance, and the monster has 40 spell resistance, 40-31=9, 9*5%=45%, 45% of the damage is mitigated. If the fireball was going to do 300 damage, it instead deals only 165 damage. (300*(1-0.45))

This will mean that having Spell Resistance on a player will mean a chance to take less damage from spells, and make spell penetration important for nukers(sorcs/fvs) (that are op anyway).
Items with spell penetration will have actual value rather than being vendor garbage.

Thoughts?

I agree with your assessment that Spell Resistance is broken, but not with your way of fixing it.

As it stands now, the reason SR is "meaningless" on PCs is because high level enemy mobs start out at level 35+, which means their SR will be over 55... for the majority of people playing, all your solution would do is...

1. Ensure that players still take 100% of incoming damage (SR 20+12 = 37 versus SP 35), and
2. Ensure that mobs take a smaller portion of damage. Using your example with a roll of 11, the caster's 31 against the SR of 55 would be 55-31 = 20 *5% = 100% mitigated.

No thanks, I'm actually having fun playing my 12/6/2 battle-caster.

I'm betting Turbine is actually going to implement a fix to Spell Resistance similar to the new melee combat to-hit/AC system. Every point of Spell Resistance you can acquire will help, although the higher you get it the less each point will benefit.

[Jaid314]

i have a better idea:

1) stop standing still when there are casters spamming ray spells with no saves.
2) get decent saves in the first place.
3) get something that grants elemental resistances or absorption.
4) realize that your described change will nerf nuker PCs to be completely useless, and will make the quests harder for you, while having very little if any impact on the mobs, most of which have vastly higher caster levels than the PCs who run the quests.

SR is doing very little for players because mob caster levels are so inflated. when you meet a CR 40 demon, it has a caster level of 40. your SR 25 item is not going to do a damned thing to stop it, it will just blast right through without even being reduced 100% of the time. on the other hand, a nuker trying to land a spell on all the drow trash currently running around, has to deal with CR 35 drow having 45 SR under your system... or, in other words, may as well not even bother casting a spell at all, because it would just be a waste of time knowing that you're probably going to consider it a good day if you deal 50% damage, unless of course you have a truly ridiculous number of past lives.

the solution is to stop making enemy casters have 10 or more caster levels than the players, not to nerf nuking spells. well, that and make use of the many options you have to improve your defenses against the vast majority of nukes (there are a few that have few if any defenses available, but making them require spell pen will just mean that mobs always get them to work while players have to be extremely well geared to have them work reliably).

[Machination]

But what spells are there that aren't covered by blanket immunities (Fom, deathblock) that target SR, curse? Most of the spells you need to worry about are the damaging spells, and many of them offer no save.

Here is a very partial list...but there are more (mobs have some spells we don't have). Also, I admit that some of these I don't see mobs throwing around often:

Greater Command
Symbol of Weakness
Ottos Resistable
Ray of exhaustion
Slow
Crushing Depair
Fear
Dominate Person
Hold Monster
Feeblemind
Symbol of Pain
Waves of Fatigue
Symbol of Fear
Ottos Irresistable
Power Word Stun
Power Word Kill
Dominate Monster

When I look at the list above, I know there are situations where SR roll could mean life or death.....it only takes one roll every now and again to convert me that its useful, hence I think its useful

[Jaid314]

Here is a very partial list...but there are more (mobs have some spells we don't have). Also, I admit that some of these I don't see mobs throwing around often:

Greater Command
Symbol of Weakness
Ottos Resistable
Ray of exhaustion
Slow
Crushing Depair
Fear
Dominate Person
Hold Monster
Feeblemind
Symbol of Pain
Waves of Fatigue
Symbol of Fear
Ottos Irresistable
Power Word Stun
Power Word Kill
Dominate Monster

When I look at the list above, I know there are situations where SR roll could mean life or death.....it only takes one roll every now and again to convert me that its useful, hence I think its useful

greater command: last i heard, blocked by protection from evil
slow: blocked by freedom of movement
fear: blocked by various spells, including greater heroism and (if it works properly) hero's feast iirc. also various items.
dominate person: definitely blocked by protection from evil
hold monster: blocked by freedom of movement
symbol of fear: same as fear.
power word kill: blocked by death ward (or death block item)
dominate monster: blocked by protection from evil.