Monk tank: any destinies

[Capt_Ahab]

I'd still say Unyielding Sentinel for monk tanking. 15 (Earth) + 10 (Unyielding) + 20 (Unbreakable)=
If you really want to tank, I think CE is a must. Twist in Standing with Stone and ICE for another 35.
PRR is then 80. Add 9 from Adamantine Cloak of the Bear to reach 89 for ~38% damage reduction.
Also, don't know what your load out is, but the Sun Soul set bonus gives 25% damage reduction for 10s ~every 25s, granting a stacking ~10% reduction for a total physical damage reduction of ~44%.

[emptysands]

True tanking? Nope. I don't see any way to get a high PRR out of a monk build. Still, it's incredibly fun to play.

High PRR hard without a shield.

For example, here is the breakdown from my work in progress evasion Tank [1] build:

PPR - 0.65*(1–(0.99^PRR))
13 Half BAB (19+3)/2 + 2
15 DoS II
15 Defensive stance
20 iCE
25 Legendary SM
10 Heed no pain
20 Unbreakable stance
15 Large Shield/ISM
=
133 (~47.9%)

Say a 12 Monk/8Fighter/US5/SD1 with CE will get

12 Master of Stone
00 SD I - no base PRR without shield
10 Defensive stance (DS1 - actually not entire sure if you get this without a shield)
20 iCE (LD2 twist)
10 Heed no pain
20 Unbreakable stance
=72 (33.48%)


[1] http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=388329

[emptysands]

I'd still say Unyielding Sentinel for monk tanking. 15 (Earth) + 10 (Unyielding) + 20 (Unbreakable)=
If you really want to tank, I think CE is a must. Twist in Standing with Stone and ICE for another 35.
PRR is then 80. Add 9 from Adamantine Cloak of the Bear to reach 89 for ~38% damage reduction.
Also, don't know what your load out is, but the Sun Soul set bonus gives 25% damage reduction for 10s ~every 25s, granting a stacking ~10% reduction for a total physical damage reduction of ~44%.

GMOF4 Stand with Stone and LD2 iCE are going to be expensive twists: 1+2+3+4+2+3 = 15 fate points. You could twist one more tier 1 if you spent a +2 fate tome, but it's a large grind.

Something like the follow might work better.
* Lithe (SD 2): +6 AC/Ref/MDB
* iCE (LD 2): +20 PRR in CE
* Unearthly reactions (Mag 1): +6 Ref/+3% Dodge

1+2+2+3+3=11 Fate Points.

[SensaiRyu]

I think if I was going to tank I'd run in Dreadnought to max my one-on-one DPS.
Requires 18 Fate Points.

Twists:
Sense Weakness
Reign (Fs) - 3 mins of 11d20 lightning dmg on a vorp.
Unearthly Reactions or Dragonhide - Dodge or AC boost

Reign won't recharge if you're in Dreadnought, but you'll be able to use it about 4 times.

[Capt_Ahab]

GMOF4 Stand with Stone and LD2 iCE are going to be expensive twists: 1+2+3+4+2+3 = 15 fate points. You could twist one more tier 1 if you spent a +2 fate tome, but it's a large grind.

Something like the follow might work better.
* Lithe (SD 2): +6 AC/Ref/MDB
* iCE (LD 2): +20 PRR in CE
* Unearthly reactions (Mag 1): +6 Ref/+3% Dodge

1+2+2+3+3=11 Fate Points.

Oh, it is definitely a grind. Pre U14 tanking on any class was a grind, and I think that tanking on a monk post U14 is going to be hard work and some grinding.

I'm not sold on the T4 use of Stand with Stone. Seems like almost a waste to use it simply for ~5% damage reduction and 15 hp when you have T1 Unearthly Reactions.

If they fix it, Dragonhide would make a great twist for tanks. T1 no fail to Disintegrate FTW!

[Caseas]

Don't forget 25% incorporeal evasion from ninja spy 1.

I run low 100's in AC, 20% dodge, 25% incorp, 25% stacking dodge with scattering of petals, 25% dmg reduction from sun soul proc, 30 PRR, and 1100 hp.

Full monk. BunnyForged.

[SensaiRyu]

Did an informal Shade DPS challenge with Sobrien over the weekend.
Solo, no healer.

EE Claw

GMoF
Ship buffs still running during this first battle. They were around 10 mins and I didn't want to wait.
Drifting Lotus knocks him down. Stunned most of the time.
Twists:
Haste Boost
Lithe
Dragonhide

3.5 mins. Ran once.

Dreadnought
No DPS buffs except Haste. I don't think I drank a rage pot. If I did, I didn't renew it.
Kept him stunned most of the time.
Twists:
Sense Weakness
Lithe
Dragonhide

2 mins first run 2.5 mins (iirc) second run.
700+ crits several times during the first run. Saw less of them on the second run. Have a pic of one from the combat log - it killed him so it was easy to grab a pic.

Grave wraps on both runs.

Nothing I'd consider spectacular about my build or equips. So some of you could do better.

I took screen shots at the beginning and end and subtracted the numbers from the Stoneskin or Nightshield (Cloth of the Faithful) timers.

I'd like to try Fury with Haste and probably Reign twisted in. Maybe even GMoF with Haste/Reign also. Dreadnought with Reign twisted in will be next to compare against Sense Weakness. Base hits with stun are in the low-mid 100 range. I think Reign would be less DPS.

[TPICKRELL]

.
.
.
Twists:
Haste Boost
Lithe
Dragonhide
.
.
.

Why Haste Boost instead of Sense Weakness for your GMoF test? My quick and dirty spreadsheets indicate that Sense weakness is a lot more damage than Haste Boost if your hitting stunned mobd... My experience seems to back that up, are you seeing something different?

[Ape_Man]

High PRR hard without a shield.

For example, here is the breakdown from my work in progress evasion Tank [1] build:

PPR - 0.65*(1–(0.99^PRR))
13 Half BAB (19+3)/2 + 2
15 DoS II
15 Defensive stance
20 iCE
25 Legendary SM
10 Heed no pain
20 Unbreakable stance
15 Large Shield/ISM
=
133 (~47.9%)

Say a 12 Monk/8Fighter/US5/SD1 with CE will get

12 Master of Stone
00 SD I - no base PRR without shield
10 Defensive stance (DS1 - actually not entire sure if you get this without a shield)
20 iCE (LD2 twist)
10 Heed no pain
20 Unbreakable stance
=72 (33.48%)


[1] http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=388329

Tanking in Unbreakable isn't going to happen. DPSers hit so hard now that holding aggro when not in Stand against the Tide is very dicey if not impossible so take 20 PRR off both those numbers.

[TPICKRELL]

To the op.

My God Hand variant tank is on the shelf at the moment, there is very little he can tank that my pure WF Monk can't. He gets slightly better PRR and burst dps than my pure monk when haste boosted and power surged, but less overall dps and takes more damage.

Unyielding is a very solid tanking destiny, don't underestimate the power of having 4-6 Light the Dark areas heals for those oh **** moments when lag happens or trash hits your healer at an inopportune moment.

Extra Hit Points, extra healing amp, extra ac. reasonable self/area healing(Light the Dark hits my WF monk for 450-550). I've got GoMF, Legendary, and Unyielding all maxed, and Unyielding is definitely the better stance for my monk when I am expected to tank.

EDIT: Note 450-550 was before the recent changes to WF healers friend, should be 600ish now.

[SensaiRyu]

Why Haste Boost instead of Sense Weakness for your GMoF test? My quick and dirty spreadsheets indicate that Sense weakness is a lot more damage than Haste Boost if your hitting stunned mobd... My experience seems to back that up, are you seeing something different?

No, I'm not seeing something different. Just twisting it for the insane attack speed... Can't always stun a boss so when I run in GMoF I use a different set of twists.

Thanks for the info. I'll try it out on Sobrien.

Tanking in Unbreakable isn't going to happen. DPSers hit so hard now that holding aggro when not in Stand against the Tide is very dicey if not impossible so take 20 PRR off both those numbers.

Hmmm... DT aggro armor for +45%aggro +80%Tide +70%Earth. It's at this point that I think going dark monk would be good for the ToD attention getter attack.

Twist in Haste for lots of strikes, Reign for added DPS. I'll try this out in eChrono and see if the other tank can take aggro back.

[emptysands]

Tanking in Unbreakable isn't going to happen. DPSers hit so hard now that holding aggro when not in Stand against the Tide is very dicey if not impossible so take 20 PRR off both those numbers.

Based on estimates I've calculated high dps is around 1000 dps. Monk 12/8 Fighter may have a tricky time without the extra threat from a shield:

100% Base
25% DOS I
55% Insight GM Earth
20% eClaw set
=200%
50% Intimidate
=260%

So it depends on the dps output.

[SensaiRyu]

Ran Snitch twice - once with US, once with LD.

(Cooldown 7 seconds) Melee attack expand one Smite Evil Deals +3[W] damage and nearby emenies hate you as if you hit them for 1000 damage each.

This apparently doesn't mean the enemy you're hitting. And I don't think the +3[W] works either.

Set up my US abilities to get Intolerant Blow for the added 1000dmg-equivalent aggro generation. Activated Stand Against the Tide.

First Run: US
Ran with twists to max AC.
Walking with Waves
Lithe
Dragonhide

Unbuffed AC 119. Buffed at 131.
165% fortification - Tide stance fort works.

Threat equips: +70% stance, +80%US Tides stance.
Didn't wear my DT +45% threat armor. I forgot to put it on.

Spammed Intolerant Blow until it was out - seven uses. Lost aggro before I ran out of Intolerant Blow and couldn't get it back.

Second Run: LD
Ran with my usual LD twists.
Sense Weakness
Lithe
Dragonhide

Threat equips: +70% stance

Once I got aggro I kept aggro thru the 2 boss fights. (No aggro prepping done.)

Any ideas, comments, or similar experiences?

[TPICKRELL]

I use unyielding all the time when tanking on my WF monk, but I stay in Vigor of Battle stance for the healing amp and hp and don't use intolerant blow.

I've not had issues holding aggro so far and have run in some solid DPS groups. That obviously can vary a lot based on the group.

My standard tank setup on my WF monk is:

Threat: 45 Docent, 70 Earth Stance, 20 WF Brute Fighting

Twists: I usually stay with my standard twists: Sense Weakness, Legendary Tactics and Primal Scream. I could bump AC or PRR a bit to optimize for tanking, but don't find that the small tweaks make a noticedable difference in the amount of damage I'm taking so I opt to retain tactics for stunning trash and primal scream for the extra str/con for the party. If I know someone else has primal, I'll swap out for Shirardi healing spring or lithe if I think the bit of extra AC will matter.

[SensaiRyu]

Why Haste Boost instead of Sense Weakness for your GMoF test? My quick and dirty spreadsheets indicate that Sense weakness is a lot more damage than Haste Boost if your hitting stunned mobd... My experience seems to back that up, are you seeing something different?

Ok redid the runs. And, yes, I'm seeing something different.

Had ship buffs for all but the last 2 runs (didn't feel like waiting for them to run down). Guess I could've died to get rid of them but just thought of that now. Haste only, no rage pots.

Times are within ~3 seconds. Good for comparisons tho'. Took a pic after I hasted and a pic when Sobrien died.

EE Claw
Fury of the Wild - 1 min first run, 1 min 10 secs second run
Haste Boost

Legendary Dread - 1 min 4 secs
Sense Weakness

GMoF - 2 min 30 secs - not always hasted.
Sense

GMoF - 1 min 15 secs (missing start pic so subtracted .25 from 1.5min haste since I hasted immediately)
Haste Boost

GMoF - 1 min 45 secs - tried to pay better attention to haste.
Sense

No ship buffs
GMoF - 2 mins 20 secs first run, 1 min 7 secs second run
Before the second run, I put on my spare hand. 54 stun DC was almost 100%. 49 stun DC missed a few times.
Haste Boost

I think Fury of the Wild will beat out Dreadnought for DPS once Adrenalin Overload actually crits.

Ran in Earth IV stance.

What's interesting is that 2 out of 3 GMoF runs were very close to Fury and Dreadnought. I used Lily and Drifting lotus as often as possible.

So, TPICKRELL, I did see something different. Different enuf to warrant more study. Until then, Haste Boost looks like it beats out Sense Weakness.

Found a bug: Twisting a Dance of Flowers 1[W] (I only have rank 2) only adds +.5[W]. Tested in Dread and Fury. Didn't twist it during the test.

[TPICKRELL]

Ok redid the runs. And, yes, I'm seeing something different.

Had ship buffs for all but the last 2 runs (didn't feel like waiting for them to run down). Guess I could've died to get rid of them but just thought of that now. Haste only, no rage pots.

Times are within ~3 seconds. Good for comparisons tho'. Took a pic after I hasted and a pic when Sobrien died.

EE Claw
Fury of the Wild - 1 min first run, 1 min 10 secs second run
Haste Boost

Legendary Dread - 1 min 4 secs
Sense Weakness

GMoF - 2 min 30 secs - not always hasted.
Sense

GMoF - 1 min 15 secs (missing start pic so subtracted .25 from 1.5min haste since I hasted immediately)
Haste Boost

GMoF - 1 min 45 secs - tried to pay better attention to haste.
Sense

No ship buffs
GMoF - 2 mins 20 secs first run, 1 min 7 secs second run
Before the second run, I put on my spare hand. 54 stun DC was almost 100%. 49 stun DC missed a few times.
Haste Boost

I think Fury of the Wild will beat out Dreadnought for DPS once Adrenalin Overload actually crits.

Ran in Earth IV stance.

What's interesting is that 2 out of 3 GMoF runs were very close to Fury and Dreadnought. I used Lily and Drifting lotus as often as possible.

So, TPICKRELL, I did see something different. Different enuf to warrant more study. Until then, Haste Boost looks like it beats out Sense Weakness.

Found a bug: Twisting a Dance of Flowers 1[W] (I only have rank 2) only adds +.5[W]. Tested in Dread and Fury. Didn't twist it during the test.

Good info, thanks.

I'll defnetely do more testing as well then, would rather not grind out tier 4 twists on 3 more monks if sense isn't a significant boost.

Obviously other factors come into play, like the amount of fighting before you can refresth haste boosts, the number of haste boosts, and the primary stance you run in.

I'm in wind IV unless I'm taking a lot of damage in which case I switch to earth IV.

What wraps were you using?

[SensaiRyu]

Good info, thanks.

I'll defnetely do more testing as well then, would rather not grind out tier 4 twists on 3 more monks if sense isn't a significant boost.

Obviously other factors come into play, like the amount of fighting before you can refresth haste boosts, the number of haste boosts, and the primary stance you run in.

I'm in wind IV unless I'm taking a lot of damage in which case I switch to earth IV.

What wraps were you using?

Grave Wrappings.

I refreshed haste boost as fast as I could in the quickbar lineup. The runs I did that went over my 1.5min haste clickie had a few seconds of no haste. I have 7-10 clicks of Haste Boost. I kept it going the whole time. I never ran out of Haste Boost.

And I would swear that I saw Sobrien's HP bar go up quite a few times.

7 starting uses of Adrenaline Overload and used it often - it regens on a vorp 33% of the time. The attack chain pause was noticeable and the non-crit dmg was in the 400s. It has a longer pause than Lily or Drifting where I could mouse click out of those. I kept hitting Primal Scream also. Drifting and Adrenaline knocked Sobrien down about half the time. I may get more DPS not using Adrenaline than using it until the crits work.

One quickbar and pretty much in this order:
FoL, Imp Sunder, Stun, Void IV, Earth IV, Finish, Vers: Dmg III, Haste Boost rank 3
With 2 blank for ED specific moves (Lily/Drifting, Primal/Adrenaline) and I never used the finisher.

If Fury, Dread, and GMoF are similar, when I'm seeing 120-170 base dmg range in Fury (don't remember Dread but iirc it was a little bit lower with higher crit dmg) and 70ish base dmg in GMoF, then it's gotta be the 250ish Lily (on a save) and I never could see the dmg from Drifting, that is offsetting the lower base GMoF dmg. And the real kicker is that GMoF got close 2 out of 3 times.

It would be better to run this 10 times with each of the 4 setups and average the scores. Haste buffs only.

What I'll probably do is run 2 or so more in Fury and Dread and GMoF haste/GMoF sense to narrow down an average. Getting wind IV would mean I'd be re-spec'ing my enhancements.

To the OP: Sentinel is broken for monks. You can't tank in it. Dread with Sense twisted in or Fury with Haste Boost twisted in are two other nice DPS builds for handwraps. GMoF looks like it can almost keep up in a one-on-one DPS match with Haste Boost twisted in.

In fact, if GMoF with Haste Boost is within 10-20 seconds of Fury and LD, then the added AOE abilities makes it the best choice, IMO, unless the boss can evade the flower attacks for 0 dmg (eChrono comes to mind). Won't stop me from running in LD or Fury, or any other destiny I want for flavor tho'.

[emptysands]

Grave Wrappings.
...
And I would swear that I saw Sobrien's HP bar go up quite a few times.

...

To the OP: Sentinel is broken for monks. You can't tank in it. Dread with Sense twisted in or Fury with Haste Boost twisted in are two other nice DPS builds for handwraps. GMoF looks like it can almost keep up in a one-on-one DPS match with Haste Boost twisted in.

Probably from neg levels and his max HP dropping.

How is US broken for monks at the moment?

[TPICKRELL]

Grave Wrappings.

...

I'm not asking you to retry in Wind, that's my issue not yours, just saying that stance couild have an effect on the results.

I love my Grave Wrappings, but I'm not sure that they are the best choice for a DPS comparison, because the neg levels (which cause the hp to appear to go up do to the neg level reducing the mobs max HP) is a fiarly substanital and random effect, just like a good string of lightening strikes can skew a run.

Your tests are very much apreciated and are defintely proof that I need to do some tests of my own... Before tiering up my other monks for sense weaknes.

Thank you for taking the time to do this and post the results.

[SensaiRyu]

I'm not asking you to retry in Wind, that's my issue not yours, just saying that stance couild have an effect on the results.

I love my Grave Wrappings, but I'm not sure that they are the best choice for a DPS comparison, because the neg levels (which cause the hp to appear to go up do to the neg level reducing the mobs max HP) is a fiarly substanital and random effect, just like a good string of lightening strikes can skew a run.

Your tests are very much apreciated and are defintely proof that I need to do some tests of my own... Before tiering up my other monks for sense weaknes.

Thank you for taking the time to do this and post the results.

You're welcome. I enjoyed it - a useful break from quests.

Ahhh... I didn't think of level drain. Since I've been using them I'm stuck with them for any subsequent runs unless I want to start over. Or better yet one day I'll take the time and beat on the Reaver's portal with a more stable pair of wraps in the 3 EDs. I do want to do more of a pure Shade-DPS type set of runs one day.

How is US broken for monks at the moment?

I tried it. See this post.

iirc, there's a bug report out on this or some others have noticed too. Intolerant Blow doesn't pull aggro and I don't think Stand has 80% threat gen either. The sorc I ran with pulled aggro and I couldn't get it back even spamming Intolerant Blow. Using LD, with only earth IV for threat, I kept aggro 100%. US should've increased threat to where I would be able to keep it. It didn't.

TPICKRELL says he uses it - but doesn't use Intolerant Blow or Stand. To me, if you don't need the aggro of US, then what's the point in using it for tanking when there are probably better DPS destinies out there. I don't need healing amp (light monk), tho' the +40% fort is nice. If there's some other reason, do tell.

Once it's fixed I'll consider trying it again. I mean, 165% fort, 114+ AC and +10,000 HP isn't something to brush off if the threat gen were solid.