Why do SOME zergers intentionally hijack quests?

[seenorseems]

Generalize much? Don't kid yourself, there are plenty of slowpokes who get to the quest and have the same issue. This is because not reading and efficiency are different things.


Oh so now in addition to smelling flowers, I'm not legitimate if I'm not in a group? If you re-read my suggestion, it was to begin soloing and post a LFM as in progress....


Which brings me back to my point you have missed several times... Don't assume your default way of doing the quest is others.

My second point is to not assume that zerging = jerk. I've joined many LFM's with the intention to help others instead of maximizing xp/minute. But "Doing optionals", or "First Time" are not at all the key words for me that send up a red flag for running in the slow lane. Consider this... what if a zerger wants to do a quest for the first time?

They also spent time on the loading hint texts... it doesn't mean that people who ignore the loading screen messages aren't playing the game right. You enjoy the game one way, others enjoy it differently. When you stop assuming the worst of everyone who doesn't do it your way... you'll find many of your communication issues go away.

I'm not assuming anything, except that we have different play styles and generally different goals when playing that affect our ability to enjoy the game together. Posting advice that basically says "then just don't play with other people" doesn't address the underlying lack of communication or help the original poster deal with his frustration.

I don't know why the last post was addressed to me, since I wasn't making any negative assumptions about other players just pointing out my perceptions of Turbine's game design and that there are other ways to play the game that don't involve farming for experience points and loot, or completing any objective that is quantified within the mechanics of the game.

If you operate under the assumption that someone has the same goals, when really they don't, it's easy to ignore the fact that your behavior is actually causing problems for them. This would be true if you posted looking for a fast run elite BB and a a role-player joined or someone wanted to kill every mob in a walk-up and you rushed ahead to the entrance. Or, as I've had happen, you post for normal and another player opens the quest on elite. Assuming that everyone who plays the game plays it your way, that there is a normal way to play, that others need to adjust to it or be stuck soloing content isn't fun for anyone on the receiving end of that assumption. It's not one type of player's fault. Everyone should be explicit about their goals in the LFM to avoid these problems. Clearly there are enough of both types of players that with a little understanding we could all find groups that have the same objectives.

[LazarusPossum]

Okay, I see the discussion is devolving into a ALL ZERG=GOOD/ALL ZERG=BAD place to rant. This has become a long thread, and I'm pretty sure some posts are not being read.

I have made it clear that I am angry with a "certain" type of zerger. Not all zergers. I have friends here who zerg, and some who are semi-zerg, and that's fine. The specific type of person I'm targeting is the one who hijacks a quest even after private and public discussion about how the quest is going to be run.
This is the main and most crucial point to the thread. Please remember that.

Second, I'm not name-calling in general, and yes, I am trying to practice restraint in this thread but still want to be able to express my anger with hijackers without ALL zergers feeling I'm directing my comments at them, too. Hence, the narrowing down of reasons before I actually do make an accusation. Skipping to the end comment when you read the post kind of defeats the purpose.

Third, I was going to put up my own LFM, but found one on the board first. I do remember stating that.

Fourth, yes I did communicate with the party. A lot. I got responses from the leader before setting out. I got responses from other party members as we moved toward the quest. I got ONLY ONE type of response from the hijacker, whose best suggestion for the party was to "just run through it".

Okay, resume.

[Ancient]

Dude...they are just numbers...maybe it's 90/10...maybe its 80/20 maybe its 70/30, but you can't deny that the majority of the player population is not as adept as the TR Train Zergers out there.

But running the quests in a speedy/efficient manner does not equate with being a world record setting TR train zerger. I'm not a TR train zerger, but I love it when I get in a group with some of them! I find it fun to knock off the quests in an efficient manner... most of the people I meet seem to fit into that category which closer to the zerging side of the style spectrum.

[themoonbreaker]

For many players, their playstyle is the "only" way.

Think about it. 4-5 random people joining up to complete a quest, most not saying a thing to each other or unable to because of technical or language issues. It is amazing that groups get anything done at all.

Some players think they are being helpful by finishing fast. Some think they are impressing the rest of the party with their mad skillz. Quite a few don't care about the other people in a group at all and just want their xp/min.

There is not a "right" way to play. It would be nice if we had more playstyle indicators on the LFM boards.

[Ancient]

Posting advice that basically says "then just don't play with other people" doesn't address the underlying lack of communication or help the original poster deal with his frustration.

1. My advice was: if you are in a group that doesn't match your style, consider starting your own. I have found that in progress groups tend to fill quickly because it reassures people that the group is likely to be successful.

2. The communication issue was that "First Time" does not equate with go slow and read every piece of flavor text and discuss how it makes you feel. Nor does going slow in the quest equate with going slow in the explorer area. "Go Slow" means "Go Slow", "Explorers and Rares then Quest" means "Explorers and Rares then Quest".

3. You won't click with every group. Some times it is best just to finish up (or even cut your losses) and move on. That is part of the "social" experience in "social" games. The best long term solution is to not let the little things get to you.

[Xynot2]

It would be nice if we had more playstyle indicators on the LFM boards.

2 sets of check boxes

First one indicates what type of playstyle you play and the second set for types you will accept joining your group. Now if we could get the AI to determine when the people joining are lying and dont fit into those groups....

Nothing is going to get rid of bad players except making a list of people you dont want to play with ever again.

[innersphere1]

if u want to zerg, be sure you can do it and u dont die like a loser, and is ok for me. But if u die all the party takes less xp because of your stupidity and i LOL at you ! and u ragequit. (maybe you are a barbarian?)

[Karavek]

Dear OP I feel for you and know your frustration. I cannot tell you how much of this game has been ruined for me over the years by XP/Per minute mentals. Its not that I dont get where they come from, been here since year one myself and content is not designed to be enjoyed when repeated, just ground out over and over for loot.

That is the DEVs fault and not our own, how we evolved as players was a by product of the failings of the dev team to recognize that our having to police our own as it were and exclude those who dont work well within a given play style only lead to the era's when populations dried up and content stagnated. This only further compounded the issue as die hards just kept grinding, praying for the day it would rain again.

Instead of being thankful and drinking humbly of the bounty when the rain finally came, they gorged themselves, trying to grow as fat from it as fast as possible, and brag about the rapine of content as if it was some sort of achievement.

As I mentioned it is left largely to use to police our own in this game, fortunatly the DEVs have left us a few tools to slow down zergers as I believe that is the intent of such spells as GREASE!

Yes Grease, dont leave home without it. So mighty is it, that id sooner make a 19/1 assassin wiz using that great int for a high grease DC, and keeping on my stone boots. IME Grease will stop the vast majority who try to zerg cold. Few are actually that self sufficient and planned to force the party into supporting their fun at the cost of the groups.

In fact in preperation for the new content I took my last level on a rogue/fighter build in artificer( I love x bows even on non x bow specialists) and have the fun of a fairly high DC grease( about a 21 when I have all my int gear on)) a 21 ref save might not sound like alot, but well how many fighters and barbs do you know who didnt ignore dex ? Hell I see fighters ***** endlessly about rolling a 1 and being hit with some stat dmg from a pos trap.

[Bosco]

Story needs more dragons and bacon, but its a good start.

[Mathermune]

This thread is great, but it's taking too long.

Just run through it and when forum alert hits red drop a blade barrier. C'mon hurry up!

[shajib]

But running the quests in a speedy/efficient manner does not equate with being a world record setting TR train zerger. I'm not a TR train zerger, but I love it when I get in a group with some of them! I find it fun to knock off the quests in an efficient manner... most of the people I meet seem to fit into that category which closer to the zerging side of the style spectrum.

Agreed, most of the lfms i see are zerg based. Occasionally i see a "teamplayer" or a "no zerging" lfm, but those are very rare.

[Ungood]

Challenge me, please. Give me a legitimate reason to think it's not reason #3, and an acceptable behavior.

Well as it seems from the many posts I have skimmed on this topic, their is this entire demographic of players that have somehow gotten the notion in their heads that everyone wants to zerg a quest and that, unless stated otherwise, is the default playstyle of the game.

Now, while "Need Guide" and "Zerg" to all but the most oblivious of players should be mutually exclusive concepts in a party doing a quest, there has been a great delusion cast upon the masses that somehow "speed = good" and that is what everyone wants.

This of course as you can see from the other posts in the thread, is not how the population feels, which is why you get the majority of the people in a party who comprehend moderate play style and one person who thinks the entire game revolves around zerging.

So maybe they are not nasty children, but innocent people that have been duped to believe the wrong things about how "everyone" wants to play this game.

Just a thought to ponder, after all you did ask me to challenge you to look at other possibilities.

[Raithe]

Here is the bottom line:

No one ever did anyone a favor by zerging a quest for them. I can zerg a lot of quests, simply because I know them (meaning I know every little detail about their spawn patterns and quest structures) by heart. Having you zerg it for me does not make me happy, and does not make you look awesome.

On the flip side, no one ever did anyone a harm by not knowing how to zerg or being unfamiliar with the quest and taking it slow. Deaths happen due to random rolls of the die, so claiming that dying was someone's fault is frivolous. Plus, if you are a zerger that cares about that particular 10% of base xp so much, then you zerg and make sure there is nothing left to harm the "noobs."

The main problem with metagamers (zergers, typically) is that they have no awareness of the other playstyles around them. Everyone else is keenly aware of their playstyle and presence. Bottom line, if you aren't sure that everyone is a zerger in the party, be considerate and let them dictate the pace.

For the most part, good zergers should be shortmanning or soloing.

[katz]

I got to call b/s on this one. Zerging does not not mean only rushing to the end without killing everything, its more of completing the quest at a rapid pace.

i'll refer you to my earlier post... that's what zerg means TO YOU. different people have different definitions. if someone says "I hate zergers" they probably AREN'T talking about someone who does a quest in a timely fashion. they are probably talking about the guy who barrels thru the entire quest at run speed or faster, leaving behind mobs, optionals, traps, and his GROUPMATES.

a common attitude toward people like that is: if you're going to "zerg" off and solo the quest for us because you're so l33t you CAN solo the quest... do us a favor and SOLO the quest... don't join us.

a GOOD "zerg" group... everyone moves together... OR if there are multiple objectives or areas that need to be taken care of, split to meet all those objectives before meeting again at the end. rushing thru to the end and the rest of your group be damned is NOT a 'good' group... zerg or not.

You obviously dont know what your talking about. The LFm asked for a guide, its as simple as that. The person who was classified as a zerger by the op joined and offered help to show them the way. If they want a special hand holding session, then they should have indicated that in the lfm, instead of simply opening it up to any guide.

wow, really? pot meet kettle, because YOU obviously have no clue. LFM needs guide 99.9% of the time wants someone who will GO SLOW and show them the quest. the "zerger" who joined did neither. all he did was almost go to the wrong quest, get several people killed because he didn't listen to the rest of the group, then rush thru the quest and cheat people out of good loot. that is as far as you can possibly get from a 'guide' unless you're looking for a guide on 'how NOT to do it'.

You need to read again. The op was arguing with the guide, claiming he didnt agree with the way the guide was going based on his wiki knowledge. Whether or not the guide was useful isnt part of the topic, he is still a guide.

he was "guiding" (using the term loosely) them in the wrong direction, apparently.
i think you need to READ this topic instead of "zerging it" because i think you missed some key points. that, or you're just arguing to be contrary. if it's the latter, you signed up for the wrong LFM. too bad we can't reform without you.

I was a bit bothered by this too.
The quest and the explorer zone are two entirely different things.
If the LFM says first time, etc. then I may join knowing fully well that it will be a flower sniffing run - no problem.
If you want to waste time ON THE WAY to the quest, however, then that is rude.
I joined the LFM for the quest, not the explorer area.

it was their first time. you HAVE run there the first time thru the explorer zone (like running to the tower for TOD.) i didn't get the impression they were 'wasting time' with the explorers, but just trying to get from point A to point B. and the only thing the zerger was doing was yelling at them to 'run to it'... well what if they don't know where "it" is?

[LazarusPossum]

Just a thought to ponder, after all you did ask me to challenge you to look at other possibilities.

Yes, yes I did. Thank you for actually reading the post and considering what I said.

[Tyrande]

Dear OP, I /agree. Some people are just egocentric jerks.

Examples: last night one of my characters have a first time along run through the demon web to get to a quest, I believe "Reclaim the Rift". The rest of the party already by the portal and started the quest. My character was buffing and running there through the web. 5 minutes later, she arrived at the quest and they already completed it. They said they already completed it 7 times. My characters was saying some words not allowed to be posted on the forums.

2nd example, same quest, another group. Joined in the quest and everyone apparently knew some short cut to the end fight. My character, obviously, did not know the short cut and died while jugging off 7 spiders and some Yugoloths. They told my character to release and she did. Once that, she got dismissed. What a bunch of jerks!?!

IMHO,
I doubt the quest is designed to be Working As Intended to be that way to finish in 1 minute from the short cut though.

[seenorseems]

Third, I was going to put up my own LFM, but found one on the board first. I do remember stating that.

Fourth, yes I did communicate with the party. A lot. I got responses from the leader before setting out. I got responses from other party members as we moved toward the quest. I got ONLY ONE type of response from the hijacker, whose best suggestion for the party was to "just run through it".

Okay, resume.

Did the party or the leader ever say anything to this guy?

[Enoach]

First, my opinion of the original post. No one should run the quest different than what the Group Leader has expressed. Unfortunately people are ascribing their own personal meanings to the "First Time, Need Guide" message (if they even read it that is). In this case the OP did their due diligence to make sure they understood that this was a do all optional run (Which can still be done fast). As all underdark quests seem to have a few fights between the portals and quest entrances, some requiring going through gates. It can't be assumed if slaying or running will be the way the party gets through these areas - that is a separate discussion.

I enjoy a slow paced, lets learn every inch of this dungeon and its story line. I also enjoy running some dungeons so fast that many of the monsters inside didn't even realize we were there. Based on this every time I join a group I run the quest the way the leader wants to do it. Its not "dumbing down" my style. Its adapting how I use my abilities. If a person cannot work with the group they are in, it is up to them to take the corrective action, which could be, "I'm sorry but my playstyle does not jive with everyone else, good luck and happy hunting"

There are actually many styles of play in DDO and even the ZERG style has many sub-styles; No Optional, everyone assigned an optional, to only Optional that produce enough XP without slowing down completion, kill it all fast (as you meet it/group it all until we can't move) to kill nothing except what needs to die.

The only "NORM" is that all groups are looking to complete. In the world of PuG there is no normal/standard that every group of that type subscribes to. Guild/Certain Groups/Channels may have a NORM, but again that was established sometime during being in that group.

We have to be careful about ascribing our own personal meanings to communication or to situations.

[Dribble]

"First time" is meaningless for LFM text. If you want strangers to dumb down their playstyle, simply put "going slow". It's far more clear and zergers will steer clear.

Anyway, I can't be the only one in these 10+ pages that thinks it's the slowbie that tried to hijack the group. He was the one all stressed about it before he clicked an LFM and the leader DC'd, before the quest even started. And anything over 2 mins (he said 8 minutes?) is a flower-sniffing run of that quest. This whole thread is spawned from silliness.

[Ziindarax]

I have an honest question, if I'm sutck in a group where my fun is getting killed by a member or members I usually just say: "Sorry, gtg" and leave.

But on my clerics I can never bring myself to do so because it impact the whole party rather hard.

My question: is it okay for me to up and leave a party on a healer if a player or 2 are been too much of a pain?

If someone is ruining your enjoyment, speak up. Though if someone is willfully ruining your experience, it's probable that they won't care about what you think; I had a guy in one of my chrono runs who had absolutely NO respect for what anyone else in the group wanted. (we had a chest blesser, and most the group seemed to be fine with the guy blessing the chests, but the rude guy said he didn't give a "f" about random "trash" loot. So, at this point, having grown fed up with his ignoring some of the members who got lost and needed help [whom I had to go and rescue on several occasions during the run], I just told him off. Naturally, he thought that because I am a healer I should have been a heal bot, and did not take kindly to being told off) Case in point, when serving in a capacity where the party NEEDS you, help the party complete the raid/quest, but DO let all offending parties know that you are NOT cool with their behavior/conduct.

When I advised to leave party, I was referring to the wilderness instance, not the raid/quests. With underdark/King's Forest, as long as you approached the mobs with tactics and didn't try to zerg rush past them as the OP had mentioned, they're very easily manageable. So easily manageable, that I can solo the entire instance on my Lord of Blades FVS/Unyielding Sentinel.