So just how bad are fleshie sorcerers?

[Saravis]

And what does this debate prove?
There is no "bad".
1. Choose what you prefer.
2. Build to your strengths.
3. Know your weaknesses.

Don't destroy diversity, encourage it.

[Rodasch]

I'm getting ready to TR my 'main' character again, and I feel like going sorcerer. I'll have past lives cleric, wizard, and 2 FVS, and I was thinking of going air savant, although earth does sound fun.

I know what build I'll use; not hard to plan a sorc stat build, honestly, just CHA and CON. My problem is I can't decide upon human or warforged. I mean, I love the concept of self-healing and I really dislike having to heal fleshy sorcerers as a healer. Some are good and totally self-sufficient, but others have no concept that they have UMD and can use scrolls and wands. So self-healing is a plus, and the immunities and HP that warforged have is a definite help.

On the other hand, sorcerers are feat starved, and a human can provide an extra feat and more skill points, not to mention +1 to DC's and a bit more SP because of not having the -2 CHA penalty. I found a lot of great robes, too, (like the spidersilk) and from what I've seen, there are some really nice ones. The expansion has the warwizard docent, but that just doesn't cut it because it has non of the useful things that the robe has (I really think WF get screwed over with so many robes they miss out on; same concept with WF monks). Apart from that, I really don't like the idea of a WF caster; the race just never appealed to me, at all. It just doesn't sound...natural, if that makes sense. That and they're ugly.

So, what is everybody's opinion on fleshie vs WF sorcerers? I've gone back and forth for several days and I just can't decide. Should I go human for the first life to test it out, and if I hate it I can always TR again into a WF sorc?

Honestly, to me the extra CHA and extra feat make the human worth it over the Warforged for me (I did human for both of my Sorc lives so far) especially with the reduction in value of a couple of the warforged immunities recently.

Also, the limited level 6 spell slots makes slotting reconstruct very annoying just for self-healing, and you can carry recon scrolls if you're ever expected to play nanny to a WF tank or something. I found I could keep myself pretty well healed with a human, but it's a bit different playstyle than a DoD wearing WF.

WF make better wizards than sorcs, IMO, because the race does not negatively impact their casting stat at all, and they more wiggle room in spell slots to fit in repair/recon spells and still maintain their offensive, defensive, and utility power.

The only other race I'd consider on par with Human for sorcs is Half-elf. Followed by Drow, then Warforged. Unless you're building an arcane tank, then WF wins hands down, they simply get the best pure DR options and the ability to cast quickened self heals. So they're perfect for soloing Demon Queen raids, but that's not the be-all end-all measure of the class.

[Rodasch]

Saying "Oh, I'm not going to give up 1-2 DC for a little better self-healing" is a joke.

Warforged sorcerers have the best self healing in the game bar none. (Yes, divines can get much bigger (overkill) numbers, but sorc spells go off twice as fast.)

Meatbag sorcs have to make serious investment/sacrifice to get viable self healing. My warforged isn't going to waste 19 ap maxing out healing amp and scroll mastery enhancements. Definitely not going to waste a feat on skill focus UMD, and I don't have to put skill points in UMD or slot/swap gear for it either for that matter.

Oh, and I still get to carry around a 100 stack of reconstruct scrolls too.

Funny, I never needed Skill focus: UMD on my fleshy sorc to no-fail heal scrolls. Maybe it's the extra Charisma from not being a warforged.

I also strangely didn't need enough healing to justify using up one of 3 precious level 6 spell slots just to self heal "instantly" unless I was playing pretty sloppily.

[Ushurak]

So the only reason he could pull that off is because he was on a halfling?

Dont think so.

Did I say that anywhere in my statement? NO!
I said it was impressive to watch.
Thanks for twisting what people say to mean something totally different.

[LordMond63]

I have a level 20 helf Air Savant and an 18/2 wf Wiz/Rog.

There is no doubt in my mind that a warforged arcane, even if you don't go 'pure' is a good deal more forgiving of mistakes and plain bad luck than are fleshies. Even with the nerf to wf immunities (well, changes to the way poison and disease works is probably a better way to put it), you do have an advantage over fleshies that requires them to slot certain equipment to deal with it. And Reconstruct beats a Cure Serious Wounds potion any day of the week.

But whatever the advantages, real or perceived that one race has over another in terms of game mechanics, play the race/class you want to play. If you enjoy what you're doing, chances are that you'll become good at it, and good players are always in high demand, regardless of whether they are playing flavor of the month builds.

[Tid12]

This debate will never end, won't it?

Air Savant Human, UMD in the 40+, can heal scroll after a couple of deaths also, can use resurrection scrolls and have 3-4 DCs more than a WF.

I can scroll heal just fine for 300+.

If you, as a human, get red dungeon alert, you are doing it wrong.

So, in the end, human fleshies are really viable in the end game.

[Luthe111]

on a side note, short of heroic elite and epic elite, my fvs' 26 dc blade barrier hit most things possible translation being dc's lower than a decent wf sorc can hit em, so a wf sorc can probly manage




Realizes i said something thatll casue dm's to bump up saves :3

[HongKongKid]

Sorcs have only 3 level 6 spell slots. Having reconstruct takes away a spell. I have on my human flesh sorc: disintegrate, flesh to stone, chain lightning. If I was WF I would have to drop one of those awesome spells for good healing. This is the conundrum I am facing. However I do think that WF are best cos look, yes you will have to inevitably loose one of those slots. But you will have awesome healing in return. But there is one more aspect why I like humans besides the extra feat and the connection to reality, I like the cleric to do the healing and save my mana for nuking.

[Purkilius]

I like playing my fleshy sorc and I really enjoy partying with a WF sorc or wiz, I even keep an eye on there health and throw them a recon if they are in trouble.

IMO if I had a WF sorc with a lot of past lives and max gear I would probably get bored with the game really fast!

[DDOisFree]

Self healing is completely over rated and only required if you plan to solo.

Fleshie Sorcs / AMs are perfectly viable with a healer in your group. If you cant find a healer, a hireling healer will suffice for most of the game. I have encountered zero difficulty levelling up to 20 on a third life fleshie non self healing caster (AM in my case).

However WF Sorcs / AMs / Pale Masters are all wonderful for solo, zerging, and slightly faster levelling, and is very viable if you are trying to just stack multiple past lives, but for a final life Arcane caster I would want to be any of a Drow, Human, Helf or Elf (Wizard only).

[Elaril]

Being WF can cover up for quite a few player twitch skill deficiencies. So, if you are just figuring out the ropes, that is the way to go on a Sorc. Not saying that twitch played WF sorcs are bad, just that quickened reconstructs are not necessary if you can avoid damage sufficiently well to self heal with scrolls, which isn't too bad on any difficulty level. This isn't to say that there aren't times where, as a fleshy sorc, you won't die where you would have been able to heal through if you were a WF. I have played both and I am partial to the human, though the WF definately has its strengths.

Going human = the most power you can get as a sorc in my opinion - you don't have to designate a feat for quicken, you get an extra feat (so essentially you have two additional feats) and you don't have to designate a spell slot for reconstruct.

This is based on my experience soloing/shortmanning all of the game's content on all difficulty levels, your experience may vary.

[Elaril]

Self healing is completely over rated and only required if you plan to solo.

I'm sorry, but this is one of the single most incorrect things that I have seen on the forums. Even with a healer, self healing is very important. I don't like my ability to live or die in the hands of anyone who is not me. Having a healer is always cool, but it's a nice extra to have not a crutch to lean on.