So just how bad are fleshie sorcerers?

[Jaid314]

I was able to tank/recon myself against the bosses in eda before the changes on my wf sorc, pretty sure you couldn't do that on a human or otherwise. WF have this great advantage period, to compare the healing of other races is dumb they don't even compare. You can however choose to play how you want, in the end you choose what is best for your play style.

that's nice. if i care about tanking, it's even relevant.

if i don't care about tanking, then it is not relevant at all. in situations where you have almost a TPK to recover from, kiting will work as well as tanking most of the time (and still allows you to get others on their feet as you kite), so tanking is not necessary for those. in situations where there isn't an almost total TPK... well, there's a lot more tanks in the game now than there used to be. i could decide to (try to) pull aggro with my sorc instead of leaving it to the tank just to show off my e-peen, but that doesn't make the character any better, it just makes the player a more useless idiot.

(on the other hand, i'm pretty much expecting that once the enhancement revamp hits, if the devs haven't changed the racial PrE that WF are getting... well, i expect to see plenty of WF caster tanks. but right now, the odds of your tank having the stats to take as little damage as a halfway-decent stalwart defender or defender of siberys are frankly very slim).

self-healing is great. the proposed sorcerer will have uninterruptible self-healing via the cleric past life feat, as well as non-emergency healing available through scrolls. i wouldn't recommend tanking horoth with it, but then, who cares. OP didn't ask for a self-healing tank, OP asked if a fleshy sorcerer would work for general questing and leveling up. the fact that said fleshy sorc also does just fine in raids (so long as you don't expect it to tank and self-heal for some unfathomable reason).

[daniel7]

WF sorc is the best. quickened self healing is greater than the feat and dc you get for fleshy.

combine WF with airsavant kd immunity/wings, and displace you will have amazing dmg output and be nigh indestructable. despite what ppl say scroll healing is not a reliable way to self heal, especially when you have alot of mobs hitting you which as a sorc you will.

plus having to heal a sorc whos nuking out of range of mass heals is just annoying and i'll often let them die...thier scrolls aren't enough and you'll have to swap weapon sets to do it. saves are negligable, because youll have enough health to take the spell dmg, and just recon yourself.

So this is everything I was thinking but I didn't want you to feel like you have to go WF. Keep in mind that when you are taking a lot of damage you aren't limited to just reconstruct, you can use repair critical or one of the mass repair spells as well (I use mass repair). Scroll healing sucks in combat.

[Lonnbeimnech]

About red dungeon alert.

Most of the time you will miss out on even getting aggression bonus. If you really don't care about that, then invisibility would be better/faster, and you wouldn't get past yellow alert 9/10 times.

[Lonnbeimnech]

So this is everything I was thinking but I didn't want you to feel like you have to go WF. Keep in mind that when you are taking a lot of damage you aren't limited to just reconstruct, you can use repair critical or one of the mass repair spells as well (I use mass repair). Scroll healing sucks in combat.

It's bad for a melee because of the dps loss while switching gear. For a caster it hardly matters, if the enemy is close enough that it can hit you, you would be using an aoe like firewall, rather than nuking spells. You can jump to the other side of the firewall switch to heal scroll, use the scroll and switch back to your caster weapon by the time you land from the jump, with no loss to dps.

And that's assuming you messed up to begin with, cast ice storm web and solid fog in one spot, nothing is going to hit you.

[BeccaBop]

I'm getting ready to TR my 'main' character again, and I feel like going sorcerer. I'll have past lives cleric, wizard, and 2 FVS, and I was thinking of going air savant, although earth does sound fun.

I know what build I'll use; not hard to plan a sorc stat build, honestly, just CHA and CON. My problem is I can't decide upon human or warforged. I mean, I love the concept of self-healing and I really dislike having to heal fleshy sorcerers as a healer. Some are good and totally self-sufficient, but others have no concept that they have UMD and can use scrolls and wands. So self-healing is a plus, and the immunities and HP that warforged have is a definite help.

On the other hand, sorcerers are feat starved, and a human can provide an extra feat and more skill points, not to mention +1 to DC's and a bit more SP because of not having the -2 CHA penalty. I found a lot of great robes, too, (like the spidersilk) and from what I've seen, there are some really nice ones. The expansion has the warwizard docent, but that just doesn't cut it because it has non of the useful things that the robe has (I really think WF get screwed over with so many robes they miss out on; same concept with WF monks). Apart from that, I really don't like the idea of a WF caster; the race just never appealed to me, at all. It just doesn't sound...natural, if that makes sense. That and they're ugly.

So, what is everybody's opinion on fleshie vs WF sorcerers? I've gone back and forth for several days and I just can't decide. Should I go human for the first life to test it out, and if I hate it I can always TR again into a WF sorc?

I have a WF sorc.

I like it so much I dumped 22 past lives into him. (One of each for completionist, 3 each of all casters and barbarian.)

If I didn't have the ability to quickened reconstruct very often, I would not have survived a lot of the latest content on the more challenging difficulty settings.

But that's because I play my sorc like unto a barbarian: I dive into the middle of a group of enemies, and try to do insane damage.

Of course, many of my guildies prefer going a more DC-based route, and run around in circles casting crowd control and instakills (taking 2 necro SF feats), and having impeccable timing.

Since my system lags every once in a while, and since a 1-second delay is often fatal unless you can heal yourself a lot, I prefer WF for my sorc.

Other people have better systems, better connections, and don't mind having 20 different scrolls in their inventory.

But I would never want to play a fleshy caster, personally. (I have done it and don't wanna do it again.)

[daniel7]

It's bad for a melee because of the dps loss while switching gear. For a caster it hardly matters, if the enemy is close enough that it can hit you, you would be using an aoe like firewall, rather than nuking spells. You can jump to the other side of the firewall switch to heal scroll, use the scroll and switch back to your caster weapon by the time you land from the jump, with no loss to dps.

And that's assuming you messed up to begin with, cast ice storm web and solid fog in one spot, nothing is going to hit you.

Well even if your hands are free you still have to make a concentration check on scrolls even with quicken (unless this has changed). But being able to UMD divine scrolls is awesome so I would put points into UMD even if you go WF.

[grayham]

Is it possible for someone to give a breakdown of easy to achieve Sorc UMD post U14? Either my search fu is weak or no-one has done one yet.

[Ushurak]

First time I TR'd to sorcerer it was with a cleric PL and I picked up the active cleric PL feat. This suited me fine as emergency "Oh ****!" healing all the way to level 20 and wands/scrolls/pots were fine for all the out of combat stuff. Can plan it as a flexible slot to swap it out if you don't need it or kept if you do need it at cap.

-2 DCs hurts on a WF Sorc and a reason they just don't interest me. Having reliable CC/instant kills/full damage nukes in elites makes a huge difference and is usually more valuable imo than recons, ymmv.

Finally, I play hard and fast and have never had an issue keeping up with tin can sorcs, I think fleshy has 99% of the zerging potential of WF in 99% of situations.

And comparing level to level you would be 99% wrong.

[Ushurak]

WHAT (meaning to shout) HALFLINGS MAKE GREAT CASTERS (still meaning to shout) I have run them and about to run another one here very soon. They can easily be stoic, and have great hp and ac, with massive saves, and solid DC's of 42 easily at cap, 40 in thier non specialized spells. Healing with UMD and with the great reflex saves you can develope (which is IMO the most common save you make in the game for direct damage) they are truely a ruler of the surviving caster. Many teased me about my halfling builds, particularily my barb halfling that all have high UMD, and yet, many of those players spent a lot of time in my backpack.....Hmmm wonder if everyone forgets that halflings have a serious survivability factor to them, who cares about doing an extra 50 hp damage per cast or hit, if you take so much and cant heal yourself that your dead after damaging an opponent once. Me.....I would rather have a longer fight and survive than try to simply cast or beat a mob down and require a healer to babysit me.


But, then again.........its just my opinion!!!!!!

I am purely a Warforged Water Savant and that is what I will always be. NOTHING can compare to quickened recon, most especially scrolls/potions/wands.
With that said, I MUST give this post a +1.
The reason being is that the single most effective sorc I have met since I have started playing this game WAS NOT a squishy Drow nor was it a plane 'ole Human nor the single most survivable race in the game known as Warforged (or God Particles)...it was a Hafling.
I watched this guy at level kite firewall the Momma Black Dragon in the twelve on elite when everyone else was dead and he killed her...never have I seen something quite that impressive.

[ayspam]

Is it possible for someone to give a breakdown of easy to achieve Sorc UMD post U14? Either my search fu is weak or no-one has done one yet.

11 skill
5 epic skill
4 gh
2 luck
15 mod assuming 40 cha
3 persuasion item cartouche
40 off the top of my head with easily attainable stuff

[ayspam]

I am purely a Warforged Water Savant and that is what I will always be. NOTHING can compare to quickened recon, most especially scrolls/potions/wands.
With that said, I MUST give this post a +1.
The reason being is that the single most effective sorc I have met since I have started playing this game WAS NOT a squishy Drow nor was it a plane 'ole Human nor the single most survivable race in the game known as Warforged (or God Particles)...it was a Hafling.
I watched this guy at level kite firewall the Momma Black Dragon in the twelve on elite when everyone else was dead and he killed her...never have I seen something quite that impressive.

So the only reason he could pull that off is because he was on a halfling?

Dont think so.

[Nick_RC]

Warforged is better for quick leveling.
Human outperforms at end game.

This is the long and short of it as I see it.

N

[Alex301]

Human outperforms at end game.

Outperforms them at what though? I think this is the key distinction that people need to make when considering which race to play as.

Some of the most impressive solo feats I have seen have been accomplished by WF and the most survivable build option is undoubtedly WF. However, if you want a build with greater DCs to insta-kill or CC with then go human.

To just say human>WF is oversimplifying it imo.

[Faent]

Warforged is better for quick leveling. Human outperforms at end game. This is the long and short of it as I see it. N

Outperforms them at what though?

Instakilling, probably. It'd be a high DC sorcerer build, and for this, you want more feats. You're looking at at least 9 past lives (3x WIZ, 3x FvS, 3x Sorc) to really take advantage of this, however. And given the new Spell Pen requirements, this kind of build is going to be suffering a bit in Epic Elite these days (although, of course, they'll still have nice raw DPS to fall back on).

[ayspam]

Outperforms them at what though? I think this is the key distinction that people need to make when considering which race to play as.

Some of the most impressive solo feats I have seen have been accomplished by WF and the most survivable build option is undoubtedly WF. However, if you want a build with greater DCs to insta-kill or CC with then go human.

To just say human>WF is oversimplifying it imo.

While I m quoting you I ll give my take on this subject to the OP.

I ll try to not be biased towards human in this post.

There is no reason to say that 1 or 2 DC difference is that big a difference. Sure WF start with -2 cha, 1 DC, and 1 feat less then a human.

If I were to create Ayspam as a WF (never gonna happen) I would take these feats.

Max
Emp
Hei
Sorc PL
Necro foc
Greater necro foc
Completionist (insert wiz PL if not completionist)
Epic necro foc
Epic cha if I need to even out

With this setup I d lose 3 DC over the human version.

Personally I wouldnt take quicken on a sorc. I know many people think differently, but this is my opinion, and I wont change it, because 1, I m stubborn , 2, I ve played sorcs long enough to know what they re capable of in all situations. If I feel endangered I d pull back, and recon as needed, just as I do on the fleshy.

Would the WF version work? Of course it would, it would even have good enough DCs to do well in high end content.

That said unfortunately, while for some people its not, for me that 3 DC is huge, and just being able to recon myself doesnt balance out the fact that I m 3 DCs behind. Also I would lose a spell slot, and as we know well we only get 3 spells for level 6.

I like to have the highest achievable DC for said class, hence the reason I went completionist.

So conclusion is, play what suits your playstyle, selfhealing + a lil more hp vs more DCs. WF are more forgiving to reckless play, humans are prettier

Good luck whichever you decide to play.

[Nick_RC]

Outperforms them at what though? I think this is the key distinction that people need to make when considering which race to play as.

Some of the most impressive solo feats I have seen have been accomplished by WF and the most survivable build option is undoubtedly WF. However, if you want a build with greater DCs to insta-kill or CC with then go human.

To just say human>WF is oversimplifying it imo.

Outperforms it in ANYTHING offensive. Higher DC's, more spell slots, more spell points(marginal). What Warforged offer is defensive benefits. To me sorcerers are an offensive class. I play them as such. I don't think it's oversimplifying it by saying they outperform Warforged. Because offensively the fleshie outperforms it.

If you have good hand eye coordination and have a sence of where to be and when to be there fleshie can be played just as aggressively as a WF. They just can't take the punishment adn walk away as well. Play smart take less punishment. If you like the barbarian sorc style go ahead and play WF. Your subscription as long as ur having fun yo win that's just my 2c at the topic at hand.

N

[voodoogroves]

Fleshie.


I mean, I'm a WF fanboi. Totally am. Love them. Have many of them, but largely for flavor.

Fleshie is just so much better UNLESS you're really going to work some sort of "take it" stand and deliver type. A WF who wants to do that is probably going to want quicken (because, why bother with being a tankable self-healer if your self-heals can be interrupted) which puts human 3 CHA and 2 feats ahead. That's huge. Drow? More CHA (4) and a feat. Half-Elf? Potential for first-life no-fail scrolling before UMD, 1 feat and 3 CHA.

Huge.

[Alex301]

These defensive benefits are the reason to play a WF over a human and i don't think you should just dismiss them as insignificant. If you want to build a sorcerer that can tank and deal with more incoming damage then a WF sorcerer is the superior choice. It's not just a question of play style but your goals for the build as well. The WF sorcerer who did the potless solo run of tod for example i don't think could have been done as a human sorcerer, or certainly not as easily.

If someone just wants an easier build to play with or to solo with then I would also say WF is the better choice.

These are valid reasons to choose WF over human and I don't think human is superior in all situations. I just think that your play style and what you want to achieve with the build should also be considered when choosing which race to play as and that sometimes this will mean WF is genuinely the better option.

[daniel7]

Please help me understand 2 things.

1. Why would you build an instant kill sorc over a wiz?

2. Aren't heal scrolls only 95% effective on helf after spending several AP? Why wouldn't you just go human or drow and UMD the scrolls with a 100% success rate (assuming you make the concentration chec that is)?

[Jaid314]

Please help me understand 2 things.

1. Why would you build an instant kill sorc over a wiz?

2. Aren't heal scrolls only 95% effective on helf after spending several AP? Why wouldn't you just go human or drow and UMD the scrolls with a 100% success rate (assuming you make the concentration chec that is)?

1) because playing a wizard after you've played a sorc is painful. i want to have wizard DCs, but i don't want to be stuck with a wizard (that said, just because it's an "instant kill" build, doesn't mean i wouldn't have excellent abilities elsewhere of course, and cheap DPS on a sorc is massively better than cheap DPS available to a wizard).

2) because you can still get that same 100% success rate with UMD, and then switch your dilettante to get +5 to all saves, which is pretty big if you have other stuff. not that i'm saying you couldn't go human and get other nice bonuses (drow is, honestly... well, the best reason to make a drow sorcerer is that you want to make a drow sorcerer. they work, but their current bonuses are not really strong enough to make them *mechanically* a better choice than human or helf, imo). just saying, half-elf offers some pretty nice options as well, and being able to no-fail cure crit wands while leveling up is a *very* nice bonus (especially on a first life, when leveling up you're probably not going to be able to 100% UMD anything above cure light wounds if even that at level 7. with dilettante, you can use cure critical wands with 100% success rate at that point!)

on a side note, if you're looking for an uninterruptible heal, last i checked there's no concentration checks for wands. obviously, you won't get as many HP back as from a heal scroll, but with some decent heal amp it's not too bad at all.