So just how bad are fleshie sorcerers?

[Wipey]

Another plus is ability to scroll heal others. From maybe 600 heal scrolls I bought while levelling I used a lot in nice groups while splitting up for optionals or whatever. I took Skill focus UMD at 15 I think, max scroll mastery, 30 human amp. 50+ concentration, scrolls for 200 and Otiluke's hitting for 1.5k in Vale was overkill for survivability anyway unless I did something really, really stupid.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

I think I've decided to make a human sorcerer. The whole warforged thing just doesn't appeal to me. If I don't like it, I still have 2 sorcerer lives to go (which I want, anyway) and I can always pick WF, then. I'll have that nice +8 CHA spidersilk robe waiting for me, too, once I cap.

Of course, if I was on a wizard, I would totally go for WF archmage, just because palemasters are a dime a dozen and I hate being a clone. It's so much easier to get UMD for self healing on a sorcerer.

I went half-elf for my last arcane life to pick up Paladin Dilletante for easy access to cure serious wounds wands at low levels and that really tasty +5 saves. It's obscene how much easier the game is when you only fail saves on a 1 even in elite BB content and it just isn't possible to have the same save rate on a human.

Feats start to look tight but I think it's workable (in order):
Maximise, Past Life: Initiate of the Faith, Empower, Heighten, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration.

You lose toughness going half-elf but if you have GS HP item, guild augment HP item, yugo pot (for specific situations, not general use) then I'd take the +5 saves any day. At cap can swap PL:IotF for Toughness or something else.

Edit: I'll add that my last arcane life was wizard so the extra feats meant it was a clearer choice than the above situation of having to choose between toughness or the other.

[azrael4h]

And looking at warforged is all fun and games?

Compared to Half-Elves they're a super model.

I run a Human Sorc, though TBH I think if I TR her again, I'll double up on Sorc lives instead of going Druid, and go Half-Elf Paladin Dilettante for +5 to all saves instead. Druid is completely lackluster to me, so I'll play just my first-life alt when I want to play one, and let my Sorc remain an arcane. My Artificer will be my last Warforged unless something changes. My Sorc had, at 20, 105% on Heal scrolls. It's gone up, with both a higher CHA and the Epic skills, I think she's up to no-fail on level 7 scrolls now.

At times I wish I was a Wizard, there are times on my (admittedly gimpy alt) Elf Wizard I wish she was a Sorc. On neither do I ever wish they were Warforged.

[PNellesen]

I recently TR'd one of my characters into my first Sorcerer and went Human with him (based him on Tihocan's Arcane Cannon). He's at level 8 now, and so far has been a ton of fun to play. I usually bring a hire along when soloing mainly because I'm still learning SP management with a Sorc, and sometimes get a little carried away and need some Divine Vitality, but otherwise he self-heals and self-buffs just fine. Survivability has NOT been a problem at all for him, running mainly Elites for Bravery Bonus.

Just my $0.01

[mwgarn]

I really like leveling a WF arcane, I find scrolling robe clunky but even on a WF I would invest in UMD so I could scroll if I had to, even my PM can scroll a heal at 85% success rate when he has to.

[ayspam]

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

I think I've decided to make a human sorcerer. The whole warforged thing just doesn't appeal to me. If I don't like it, I still have 2 sorcerer lives to go (which I want, anyway) and I can always pick WF, then. I'll have that nice +8 CHA spidersilk robe waiting for me, too, once I cap.

Of course, if I was on a wizard, I would totally go for WF archmage, just because palemasters are a dime a dozen and I hate being a clone. It's so much easier to get UMD for self healing on a sorcerer.

Good decission, that is all.

[Faent]

don't get me wrong, WF self-healing is great. but as a human sorcerer, i found myself very rarely in situations that would kill me.

If you're not in Red Alert, you're doing it wrong.

[Dagolar]

If you're not in Red Alert, you're doing it wrong.

Red Alert? Command & Conquer? Gotcha. Bringing out my Mechanic.

[Jaid314]

If you're not in Red Alert, you're doing it wrong.

ah, of course. i'd forgotten about the badwrongfun crowd.

you have fun your way, and leave me to have my fun my way. and if you ever get into my group, i will drop/kick as appropriate unless the group is explicitly a zerg group.

in which case i'll probably still be just fine, because if you're not stupid about it, scroll healing is quite effective.

[Izdaari]

As far as sorcs go:
Warforged: Self-healing
Humans: Extra feat,+1 Charisma
Drow: +2 Charisma
Half-Elves: +1 Charisma. Some versatility. With the new enhancements system, when it comes out, perhaps an extra +1 Charisma, as well, since the new system will stack stat enhancements [as per last dev comment on the matter].
Elves: Don't be silly. Elves are all wizards.
Dwarves: Nope.
Halflings: Nah.
Kobolds: Draconic bonuses, possible charisma benefits? Excellent choice! ..but not in the game.

So, you're left with DC/versatility and better gear selection, or self-healing.

Warforged typically come out better with that comparison, but I nevertheless still mostly play fleshie sorcs.
They're still fun, and do just fine in parties with adequate healers (assuming decent HP).

I would totally have to play a kobold sorc if they were in the game!

[daniel7]

The biggest problem with playing a non-WF sorcerer is that no matter which race you pick you will still be a sorcerer and not a wizard.

Just kidding. Really you should just make your build however you want to because no one is going to point and laugh at you. If you feel gimped at level 20 then just TR.

[Dagolar]

I would totally have to play a kobold sorc if they were in the game!

I'd have to play a Kobold -everything- if they were in the game. Yip yip yark!

The biggest problem with playing a non-WF sorcerer is that no matter which race you pick you will still be a sorcerer and not a wizard.

Just kidding. Really you should just make your build however you want to because no one is going to point and laugh at you. If you feel gimped at level 20 then just TR.

Actually, the only time someone'll laugh at a caster is if they're a Necromantic Robot. :P
No need for it, and it's just silly besides.

..aaaand, obviously one of the first things I did years back for laughs. >: D

[blametroi]

i've run a first life fleshy sorc.

lots of people will tell you that it only works well with WF. these people are clueless.

...snip...

WF is good. fleshy is just fine. don't let anyone tell you it's impossible or unworkable, because that just isn't true. certainly, WF have a very nice advantage in their easy self-healing. but fleshy sorcerers work great as well.

Agreed. My first WF sorc was deleted at level 9 a couple of years back. My second sorc was a first life Drow water savant (now in her second life as a Human PM) and my third sorc is a 2nd TR WF with melee past lives. Personally, I find the fleshies more fun to play and don't feel I'm hindering the party. Every so often the Drow would die when she couldn't scroll fast enough, the most memorable was Harry meteor storming me in hard Shroud part 4 ... cleric's comment was "...I don't know what happened to Eileen, he just evaporated..." (which is how it felt), and lag doesn't help, but I'm not sure even a faster twitch player would have been able to recon fast enough in that particular fight.

I played WF to give it a try, but other than one or two specialized builds I want to try, I'm sticking with fleshies for everything. Yes, they die a bit faster, but I find that teaches me to be a better caster player.

If dying bothers you much or you don't want to spend plat on scrolls, go WF. Given the OP's past life availability and likely silver flame favor, fleshy won't be as expensive for him as it has been for me

[daniel7]

I'd have to play a Kobold -everything- if they were in the game. Yip yip yark!



Actually, the only time someone'll laugh at a caster is if they're a Necromantic Robot. :P
No need for it, and it's just silly besides.

..aaaand, obviously one of the first things I did years back for laughs. >: D

Haha my PM is a WF! I prefer PM over AM and I think human would be a better choice for me but I don't want to TR again...at least not now.

[Machination]

Just max out your UMD on a Human or Helf. If you are going full CHA (which you probably are), then your UMD will be just fine. Sounds like you are legend build, you probably have GS mats make yourself a +5 or +6 Cha stats item for that UMD bump.

You really can't go wrong here with human skill boost you get your UMD into the 40's easy. Heal scroll no fail is 38 if I remember, you can heal yourself just fine.

Then again, you can go WF. Its not that big of a deal to take the CHA hit. Just won't have quite as good DCs when you may very well want that. I prefer the DC's and high all around saves of a HELF with Pali Dillante

I prefer HELF for a sorc, with Pali Dillante you end up with killer saves all around.

I'm getting ready to TR my 'main' character again, and I feel like going sorcerer. I'll have past lives cleric, wizard, and 2 FVS, and I was thinking of going air savant, although earth does sound fun.

I know what build I'll use; not hard to plan a sorc stat build, honestly, just CHA and CON. My problem is I can't decide upon human or warforged. I mean, I love the concept of self-healing and I really dislike having to heal fleshy sorcerers as a healer. Some are good and totally self-sufficient, but others have no concept that they have UMD and can use scrolls and wands. So self-healing is a plus, and the immunities and HP that warforged have is a definite help.

On the other hand, sorcerers are feat starved, and a human can provide an extra feat and more skill points, not to mention +1 to DC's and a bit more SP because of not having the -2 CHA penalty. I found a lot of great robes, too, (like the spidersilk) and from what I've seen, there are some really nice ones. The expansion has the warwizard docent, but that just doesn't cut it because it has non of the useful things that the robe has (I really think WF get screwed over with so many robes they miss out on; same concept with WF monks). Apart from that, I really don't like the idea of a WF caster; the race just never appealed to me, at all. It just doesn't sound...natural, if that makes sense. That and they're ugly.

So, what is everybody's opinion on fleshie vs WF sorcerers? I've gone back and forth for several days and I just can't decide. Should I go human for the first life to test it out, and if I hate it I can always TR again into a WF sorc?

[azmodeus1]

WF sorc is the best. quickened self healing is greater than the feat and dc you get for fleshy.

combine WF with airsavant kd immunity/wings, and displace you will have amazing dmg output and be nigh indestructable. despite what ppl say scroll healing is not a reliable way to self heal, especially when you have alot of mobs hitting you which as a sorc you will.

plus having to heal a sorc whos nuking out of range of mass heals is just annoying and i'll often let them die...thier scrolls aren't enough and you'll have to swap weapon sets to do it. saves are negligable, because youll have enough health to take the spell dmg, and just recon yourself.

[Dsav101]

Having played both they are both great. The WF quickened recon cannot be overstated. Having said that, I prefer my fleshie human sorc. Right now lvl 23 has 44 UMD and does not die much. If a scroll doesn't go off however, it can be bad news. But meh makes it more interesting I think. Anyways, roll it up and see what you think. If it helps out for fleshie, I love air to zoom out of range if need some time on a heal scroll timer....

-Hustler

[twigzz]

None of my arcanes are WF lol. All drows!

I have no prob's scroll healing myself as I'm always on the move. A great concentration helps tons. The way I see it, when you go WF you lost a feat to quicken and sorc's are already feat starved imo. Only thing I'd change maybe if I TR'ed, would prob be to go human instead of drow. Few more HP and another feat would be nice.

[Miow]

I was able to tank/recon myself against the bosses in eda before the changes on my wf sorc, pretty sure you couldn't do that on a human or otherwise. WF have this great advantage period, to compare the healing of other races is dumb they don't even compare. You can however choose to play how you want, in the end you choose what is best for your play style.

[Markvar]

As far as sorcs go:
Warforged: Self-healing
Humans: Extra feat,+1 Charisma
Drow: +2 Charisma
Half-Elves: +1 Charisma. Some versatility. With the new enhancements system, when it comes out, perhaps an extra +1 Charisma, as well, since the new system will stack stat enhancements [as per last dev comment on the matter].
Elves: Don't be silly. Elves are all wizards.
Dwarves: Nope.
Halflings: Nah.
Kobolds: Draconic bonuses, possible charisma benefits? Excellent choice! ..but not in the game.

So, you're left with DC/versatility and better gear selection, or self-healing.

Warforged typically come out better with that comparison, but I nevertheless still mostly play fleshie sorcs.
They're still fun, and do just fine in parties with adequate healers (assuming decent HP).

WHAT (meaning to shout) HALFLINGS MAKE GREAT CASTERS (still meaning to shout) I have run them and about to run another one here very soon. They can easily be stoic, and have great hp and ac, with massive saves, and solid DC's of 42 easily at cap, 40 in thier non specialized spells. Healing with UMD and with the great reflex saves you can develope (which is IMO the most common save you make in the game for direct damage) they are truely a ruler of the surviving caster. Many teased me about my halfling builds, particularily my barb halfling that all have high UMD, and yet, many of those players spent a lot of time in my backpack.....Hmmm wonder if everyone forgets that halflings have a serious survivability factor to them, who cares about doing an extra 50 hp damage per cast or hit, if you take so much and cant heal yourself that your dead after damaging an opponent once. Me.....I would rather have a longer fight and survive than try to simply cast or beat a mob down and require a healer to babysit me.


But, then again.........its just my opinion!!!!!!