Lets talk about PM

[Kakashi67]

when i hard that your symbol of death is only giving one neg levels, i was a little confused. do you mean on a save? or in general? because most of the time, my symbol instakills. but in the end, PMs are still very powerful, especially in the demonweb the PM SLAs are very handy, specially as they use HP so you can save SP, not to mention that a cleric can heal you if you are not in form, giving you extra ammo
also, PMs are immune to neg levels. take that into account.

if you don't like it, don't play it. that's all i have to say. in the end, me and my PM kick ***

Symbol of death gives one neg level every time a mob runs through it.

You're probably thinking of circle of death.

[Rawel_San]

A well built and played PM is a force to be reckoned with. Might not be the most OP character in the game,
but it's **** close. I say that as someone who has been playing an end game PM for about 2 years now.

[sephiroth1084]

Honestly, I have no clue what the nay-sayers are about. The last Epic Hard Devil Assault I ran on my PM, I had more than twice as many kills as the entire rest of the party combined. This is with the nerfed Wail, and was in a group with some fairly solid players, all well-geared, and a casting divine chucking Destruction or Slay Living (can never recall which looks like which) and Implosion whenever they were off timer.

If my PM dies, it was because I was being stupid or not paying attention.
She doesn't feel any weaker now than she did a month ago, and looks to only be getting stronger.

[350zguy]

PMs are nasty sauce.

They are stupid powered compared to most classes.

I have a PM, going from "base" wizard to PM, is like gaining 20 levels in power.

Put on an epic robe of shadow, and a few other items, and you're just silly uber compared... The epic D, and past lives, only make it even more silly.

Not that I think they should get toned down. ALL players should feel this uber @ 20... you're 20!!! With epics! You should feel uber.

[Simplesimon1979]

Sorry could resist to show how week Pm's are.


I know it was only on normal but had to start some were there

[Daemoneyes]

Comments.

You are clearly doing something wrong.

yeah maybe
but for me it shows that everything that would be worth insta-killing has DW and everything else is in such masses that only Acid Rain and or Ice Storm bring good enough SP/kill ratio

Comments.

Also, keep in mind that you gain some undead traits, but are not, in fact, undead.

and that is so halfassed that it just sucks,
why would one only want to gain some undead traits?
i mean we are talkin about people who play with life and death, they are simply not the guys who only do something evil a bit...

Comments.

Oh noes! Not killing 4 targets for 50 SP!? Whatever shall you do?! Why are you complaining about a good spell with a strong effect? What spell could you be throwing that does as much for as little? If you're running low level content, nuke. If you're running high level content, your nukes are not going to be killing stuff in one shot, and probably cost more than 50 SP anyway. Yeah, you may be hitting twice as many creatures, but it will take longer, and cost more SP ultimately.

well 50sp are 2 Acid Rain & Ice storm and there are not much enemy's out there who take more then those 3 castings to kill and its not limited to 4 targets and has not such a long CD
actually its more likely that i kill 10-20 targets with those 3 castings after train`ing
also if we talk about highlvl enemys undead to death wont kill anything
cause its DC is way to low, so we need a feat: heighten and more SP which makes this spell even worse

Comments.

They never could and it never mattered. The fact is, other SLAs cost spell points, while the PM SLAs cost HP, which you regenerate via Death Aura. They are cheap and spammy, and don't need to deal more damage.

ah yes i forgot PM heal is free of SP cost... oh wait its not (also as mentioned PM heal sucks at highlvl)
also the PM SLA lower youre survival chances so they cost far more then the few SP like Archmage or Sorc has to pay
insofar it would only be fair to let PM also emp/max there SLA

[sephiroth1084]

yeah maybe
but for me it shows that everything that would be worth insta-killing has DW and everything else is in such masses that only Acid Rain and or Ice Storm bring good enough SP/kill ratio



and that is so halfassed that it just sucks,
why would one only want to gain some undead traits?
i mean we are talkin about people who play with life and death, they are simply not the guys who only do something evil a bit...



well 50sp are 2 Acid Rain & Ice storm and there are not much enemy's out there who take more then those 3 castings to kill and its not limited to 4 targets and has not such a long CD
actually its more likely that i kill 10-20 targets with those 3 castings after train`ing
also if we talk about highlvl enemys undead to death wont kill anything
cause its DC is way to low, so we need a feat: heighten and more SP which makes this spell even worse



ah yes i forgot PM heal is free of SP cost... oh wait its not (also as mentioned PM heal sucks at highlvl)
also the PM SLA lower youre survival chances so they cost far more then the few SP like Archmage or Sorc has to pay
insofar it would only be fair to let PM also emp/max there SLA

So, like I said, you're doing it wrong..

[Daemoneyes]

You want to know why pale masters seem underpowered?

Like the old Armor Class system, the only people who broke necromancy were multi-TR toons with the best available gear and the best past life feats. Turbine nerfed it anyways, and I don't blame them for it. When babies start crying, you want to do anything to shut them up.

never said PM are underpowered just that its disappointing to play, the just dont feel PM like, it feels just like an week sorc or archmage
u run out of SP fast u dont have anything special (100 fort isnt so special if i still need to slot fort ... immunitys are gone.. oh yeah waterbreathing sure the thing i only wanted when deciding for PM....)

and yeah i am sure with epic gear u can be OP but hell whos not OP with epic gear?
also that stuff doesnt grow on trees so it takes forever to get as an normal player who doesnt want to raid each evening.

[Daemoneyes]

So, like I said, you're doing it wrong..

instead of just saying that i am a looser u could point out what i am doing wrong so that i can enhance my play but i guess thats not an option huh? ...

[Qezuzu]

also the PM SLA lower youre survival chances so they cost far more then the few SP like Archmage or Sorc has to pay
insofar it would only be fair to let PM also emp/max there SLA

This quote makes me think that, not only are you bad at playing PM, but have never actually played one.

The SLA's do not "lower your chances of survival". With Death Aura, you'll be healing whatever damage you do to yourself in seconds. Even if you don't understand the concept of kiting, i.e. "not getting hit by mobs so that most of the health you get back from aura is damage you did to yourself", if the ridiculous low HP cost of the SLA's are killing you, then you're the gimpier caster that I've ever seen.

No, seriously, you are doing it wrong.

[Qezuzu]

\Like the old Armor Class system, the only people who broke necromancy were multi-TR toons with the best available gear and the best past life feats.

This is absolutely false.

[janave]

Palemaster is still one of the most OP classes. Its also one of the most polished of the Prestige Classes.

Seriously if you feel lackful for the class id start looking at how *you*, the player could improve, maybe time to do something else than rotating between wails and fod.

I totally understand the classes that are lacking in power, their cries are just, necros arent one of them. PM is easily in the highest tier freely accessible for anyone joining the game.

The best advice here really is to try something else, maybe a bard or thief acrobat, than switch back to your PM, what a relief .

[Simplesimon1979]

ah yes i forgot PM heal is free of SP cost... oh wait its not (also as mentioned PM heal sucks at highlvl)
also the PM SLA lower youre survival chances so they cost far more then the few SP like Archmage or Sorc has to pay
insofar it would only be fair to let PM also emp/max there SLA

Are you wearing Nullification item. My aura ticks for the high 30s low 40s every two seconds and I've had crits over a 100. Burst gives around 185.

Yes base sp for acid rain is 15 but are you running it with no metas on. When you add empower and maximize your at 53 sp. Wail is 50sp, heightened finger 48, and heightened CoD is 47 at 20 with the wizard capstone

[Daemoneyes]

This quote makes me think that, not only are you bad at playing PM, but have never actually played one.

The SLA's do not "lower your chances of survival". With Death Aura, you'll be healing whatever damage you do to yourself in seconds. Even if you don't understand the concept of kiting, i.e. "not getting hit by mobs so that most of the health you get back from aura is damage you did to yourself", if the ridiculous low HP cost of the SLA's are killing you, then you're the gimpier caster that I've ever seen.

No, seriously, you are doing it wrong.

i am sure U wont get hit when u kite 15+ mobs through Ice Storm
so casting SLA while kiting them wont lower youre HP for more then 1 sec or even god forbid u may get more damage then youre Aura heals so SLA could make a difference

but i am not so uber and still get hit from some mobs when i kite them and some hit real hard after the shield mastery nerf
also i dont have youre uber saves, so disintegrate hits me hard and having 15-30hp more when disintegrate or light damage spell hits me, actually makes a huge difference in survival

[Qezuzu]

i am sure U wont get hit when u kite 15+ mobs through Ice Storm
so casting SLA while kiting them wont lower youre HP for more then 1 sec or even god forbid u may get more damage then youre Aura heals so SLA could make a difference

but i am not so uber and still get hit from some mobs when i kite them and some hit real hard after the shield mastery nerf
also i dont have youre uber saves, so disintegrate hits me hard and having 15-30hp more when disintegrate or light damage spell hits me, actually makes a huge difference in survival

I don't actually have an arcane caster atm, however all the issues you stated would only be a problem on someone who is bad at kiting, doesn't know how to deal with a large amount of mobs, and has low saves. None of these issues are inherent to the Palemaster PrE.

Try a Discoball, perhaps. Or mass hold. Or, you know, Wail them or something. So you take less damage. And Finger the casters that cast light/disintegration. They generally have low fort saves. A Circle of Death will do when there are multiple casters.

Palemaster is insanely powerful. You are simply inexperienced and undergeared.

[Daemoneyes]

Are you wearing Nullification item. My aura ticks for the high 30s low 40s every two seconds and I've had crits over a 100. Burst gives around 185.

Yes base sp for acid rain is 15 but are you running it with no metas on. When you add empower and maximize your at 53 sp. Wail is 50sp, heightened finger 48, and heightened CoD is 47 at 20 with the wizard capstone

dont wear a nulli item atm but a potency 52 with +9
and i have lore items equipped

so yes my aura heals about the amount u mention but its still often not enough with and Bursts are costly
(and yeah got a shield and pierce DR +stoneskin)

i only have Max and with cove dagger its +12 SP (cap would be 11)

and yes i see what u mean but most enemys have DW so wail/circle/fod are not an option and those who dont have DW are weak ones so ae-dots are way better then instakilling them

and those few that are worth instakilling and dont have DW are mostly casters u can snipe before the cleric next to him casts DW

did i mention that i dont like DW? ^^
seriosly way to much mobs have DW, its kinda ridicules to see every mob cast DW when u get near

[Simplesimon1979]

dont wear a nulli item atm but a potency 52 with +9
and i have lore items equipped

so yes my aura heals about the amount u mention but its still often not enough with and Bursts are costly
(and yeah got a shield and pierce DR +stoneskin)

i only have Max and with cove dagger its +12 SP (cap would be 11)

and yes i see what u mean but most enemys have DW so wail/circle/fod are not an option and those who dont have DW are weak ones so ae-dots are way better then instakilling them

and those few that are worth instakilling and dont have DW are mostly casters u can snipe before the cleric next to him casts DW

did i mention that i dont like DW? ^^
seriosly way to much mobs have DW, its kinda ridicules to see every mob cast DW when u get near

Dagger only lowers the sp cost by 4 so it adds 21 sp. Potency isn't that good anymore since the update. Your better off getting one for each element you use. DW realty doesn't get used that much. Clerics have a low fort save so you can snip them with a finger of death before they cast it.

[trespasser]

I do not feel like even getting my 5th life pale master to level 20 at the moment.

Their DCs do not matter much since there are only 3 spells that care for necromancy DC, and wail is a huge 'meh'. Their healing is subpar to the new reconstruct, their immunities are gone. Its so awesome - I became undead and the trait I picked is quad damage from light spells and the inability to cure my stat damage. Oh, and water breathing.

They are incredibly bugged - no spell absorb items, party members killing you at will, very weak SLAs, 600 damage from a lvl 2 spells, getting stat damage.

They don't excel at anything - WF Sorcs, fvs of any kind and even WF wizards take them to the cleaners in every single thing palemasters can do. So I suggest to the OP to make one of those chars. Easiest will be a WF sorc if you want to play a decent arcane.

And let the forum folk that never played a PM say how incredibly OP they are - the players that ever tried them are getting rid of them pretty quick

To those pasting screenshot of 'achievements' - bards and monks are soloing Echrono hard and Edevil's hard, don't pretend you did anything worth mentioning. Character class is completely irrelevant when the content is a joke.

[Simplesimon1979]

I do not feel like even getting my 5th life pale master to level 20 at the moment.

Their DCs do not matter much since there are only 3 spells that care for necromancy DC, and wail is a huge 'meh'. Their healing is subpar to the new reconstruct, their immunities are gone. Its so awesome - I became undead and the trait I picked is quad damage from light spells and the inability to cure my stat damage. Oh, and water breathing.

They are incredibly bugged - no spell absorb items, party members killing you at will, very weak SLAs, 600 damage from a lvl 2 spells, getting stat damage.

They don't excel at anything - WF Sorcs, fvs of any kind and even WF wizards take them to the cleaners in every single thing palemasters can do. So I suggest to the OP to make one of those chars. Easiest will be a WF sorc if you want to play a decent arcane.

And let the forum folk that never played a PM say how incredibly OP they are - the players that ever tried them are getting rid of them pretty quick

To those pasting screenshot of 'achievements' - bards and monks are soloing Echrono hard and Edevil's hard, don't pretend you did anything worth mentioning. Character class is completely irrelevant when the content is a joke.

Why would you pick vampire.

Show a screen shot to back your clam of these solos.

[Fefnir_2011]

Still OP.

Try a bard or a ranger.

Getting really sick of this. Show me a first life Pale Master soloing epic elite demon queen in his korthos skivvies and i'll take it back. But for now, the nerf has happened. The melees got to whine about how weak and feeble they were for long enough, and now developers have given what the anti-magic users asked for, and you still whine.

I'm going to start the rumor that repeater barbarians builds are OP and should be nerfed, because it makes about as much sense. Because the real OP class now is monks/monk splashes with GMoF, who got the old Wail and don't even have to worry about SP regen, they just have to keep building ki which any monk can do forever. So don't give me this BS that PMs are still "da uberest and most needing nerfeded" class.

/rant off from a sick of it divine and arcane player.