Cleaver > eSoS ->Definitive Maths

[Boromirs]

On second glance.Cleaver would out DPS eSoS.

Epic Sword of Shadow (base die = 2.5[2d6]):

Average Hit Damage
274.63 = 150-175(Weapon) + 112.13(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
954.46 = 784-900.67(Weapon) + 112.13(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
464.84 = 358.33 + 106.52


Cleaver (base die = 2.5[2d8]):

Average Hit Damage
323.63 = 171.5-209.5(Weapon) + 133.13(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
1959.29 = 1643.5-1985.5(Weapon) + 145.13(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
472.84 = 347.25 + 125.59

20th halforc with full line of epic destinies, near max'd out gear, and a base dam of about 100.

In terms of DR breakage, I see now the devs just want us to twist in the proper DR breaking powers through EDs. It was kind of wierd that every epic weapon/greensteel/cannith crafting whatever had a slot or fix to break DR and the new FR relic weapons didn't. Well just glancing over the twistable ED feats shows that anyone can break DR. Basically, the devs said "wait why would they need a slot to break DR, just let them twist it in, it's a 23rd level weapon man!? they're gonna be using EDs !"

So there you have it, it's an eSoS killer. Just glanced over too quickly.

[Chai]

How are you getting average crit damage of roughly half on a weapon that has 18-20 x3 -vs- 20 x3.

[Khyse]

eSoS hit dice is 5d6 (15-40). It is a misprint on the item card.

[grayham]

In all honesty you could get a letter signed in blood by world leaders at the G8 summit saying the ESoS has been eclipsed and some folks wouldn't want to believe you. Heck, if I'd run 50+ Velah's and traded my all worldly goods for a scroll I think I might disbelieve that something so (relatively) quickly acquired would outdo it..

[djl]

On second glance.Cleaver would out DPS eSoS.

Epic Sword of Shadow (base die = 2.5[2d6]):

Average Hit Damage
274.63 = 150-175(Weapon) + 112.13(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
954.46 = 784-900.67(Weapon) + 112.13(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
464.84 = 358.33 + 106.52


Cleaver (base die = 2.5[2d8]):

Average Hit Damage
323.63 = 171.5-209.5(Weapon) + 133.13(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
1959.29 = 1643.5-1985.5(Weapon) + 145.13(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
472.84 = 347.25 + 125.59

20th halforc with full line of epic destinies, near max'd out gear, and a base dam of about 100.

In terms of DR breakage, I see now the devs just want us to twist in the proper DR breaking powers through EDs. It was kind of wierd that every epic weapon/greensteel/cannith crafting whatever had a slot or fix to break DR and the new FR relic weapons didn't. Well just glancing over the twistable ED feats shows that anyone can break DR. Basically, the devs said "wait why would they need a slot to break DR, just let them twist it in, it's a 23rd level weapon man!? they're gonna be using EDs !"

So there you have it, it's an eSoS killer. Just glanced over too quickly.

Except that you are going to be missing out on HUGE damage boosts if you twist DR breakers to use one of these weapons instead of twisting, say Tunnel Vision and Sense Weakness.

[Chai]

In all honesty you could get a letter signed in blood by world leaders at the G8 summit saying the ESoS has been eclipsed and some folks wouldn't want to believe you. Heck, if I'd run 50+ Velah's and traded my all worldly goods for a scroll I think I might disbelieve that something so (relatively) quickly acquired would outdo it..

I dont care if the ax outdoes it or not. In fact, Id love it if they made weapons that situationally outDPS eSOS. Its been 3 years now, heh.

What i want to know is, how is:

5d6 +10 18 -20 x3 out-critted by 5d8 + 7 20 x3

If you toss the imp crit feat on both.

5d6 +10 15-20 x3 -vs- 5d8 + 7 19-20.

[Malky]

Those calcs are probably wrong, iirc the falchion from the same raid is the closest to esos dps, but still lower under 50% fort.

[Boromirs]

I dont care if the ax outdoes it or not.

What i want to know is, how is:

5d6 +10 18 -20 x3 out-critted by 5d8 + 7 20 x3

It does, people who aren't completely familiar with all the zaniness of the ed content might be confused but..anyhow the below post was done for the eaga which is a bit behind cleaver in terms of raw damage maybe it can shed some light for you.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...3&postcount=22

[Chai]

It does, people who aren't completely familiar with all the zaniness of the ed content might be confused but..anyhow the below post was done for the eaga which is a bit behind cleaver in terms of raw damage maybe it can shed some light for you.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...3&postcount=22

Im perfectly familar with the end game content. Im asking you how a profile of:

5d8 +7 19-20 x3 outcrits 5d6 + 10 15-20x3

Please explain.
Im not talking about one swing. Im talking about outcritting throughout the entire profile.

[Boromirs]

Im perfectly familar with the end game content. Im asking you how a profile of:

5d8 +7 19-20 x3 outcrits 5d6 + 10 15-20x3

Please explain.

See above link its correct I ran both eaga numbers like he did through barrage. Cleaver was done by me only but seeing how its a bit better then eaga in raw dam its probably correct too. It gets messy and complicated and it doesn't outcrit only gets much much bigger crit numbers as it should.

[Chai]

See above link its correct I ran both eaga numbers like he did through barrage. Cleaver was done by me only but seeing how its a bit better then eaga in raw dam its probably correct too. It gets messy and complicated and it doesn't outcrit only gets much much bigger crit numbers as it should.

No - that link merely explains how higher fort puts the EAG at an advantage in specific cases. We've known this for a while now.

I want to know how you came up with a number twice as high for the cleaver as you did for the eSOS when the eSOS clearly has the superior crit profile.

You listed Average Crit Damage eSOS is 954.46 @ 5d6 +10 15-20

and...Average Crit Damage Cleaver is 1959.29 @ 5d8 + 7 19-20

Its really not messy and complicated. Its actually quite simple. The cleaver likely pulls ahead when approaching 100% fort. At 0 fort the eSOS crits the eyelids off cleaver.

[Boromirs]

No - that link merely explains how higher fort puts the EAG at an advantage in specific cases.

I want to know how you came up with a number twice as high for the cleaver as you did for the eSOS when the eSOS clearly has the superior crit profile.

You listed Average Crit Damage eSOS is 954.46 @ 5d6 +10 15-20

and...Average Crit Damage Cleaver is 1959.29 @ 5d8 + 7 19-20

Its really not messy and complicated. Its actually quite simple. The cleaver likely pulls ahead when approaching 100% fort. At 0 fort the eSOS crits the eyelids off cleaver.

Please reread post/link the example of the eaga was against 0 fort. If you started adding fort to the equation it would completely whip the esos. NO FORT was used in any of the calcs within this thread.

[Alkindus]

Guys, he's been doing this since half orcs were released. He either doesn't understand the game or is the best troll ever. Don't feed the trolls..

[Chai]

Please reread post/link the example of the eaga was against 0 fort. If you started adding fort to the equation it would completely whip the esos. NO FORT was used in any of the calcs within this thread.

Ok. Re-read it. Whats missing is accounting for the profile.

Hes also giving EAG 1k damage higher on crits and not explaining it.

A lower base damage weapon with an inferior crit profile does not outcrit a higher base damage weapon with superior crit profile.

The cleaver and eSOS are closer in base damage, but the eSOS still has the superior crit profile.

Esos barb dreadnaught w/dev crit and oCrit feat.

D20 roll
1 miss
2 1x base
3 1x base
4 1x base
5 1x base
6 1x base
7 1x base
8 1x base
9 1x base
10 1x base
11 1x base
12 1x base
13 1x base
14 1x base
15 3x base
16 3x base
17 3x base
18 3x base
19 8x base
20 8x base

EAG or cleaver barb dreadnaught w/dev crit and oCrit feat + headmans.

D20 roll
1 miss
2 1x base
3 1x base
4 1x base
5 1x base
6 1x base
7 1x base
8 1x base
9 1x base
10 1x base
11 1x base
12 1x base
13 1x base
14 1x base
15 1x base
16 1x base
17 1x base
18 1x base
19 9x base
20 9x base

The axes gain 1x base on 19s and 20s for a total of 2x base
The eSOS gains 2x each on 15, 16, 17, 18 for a total of 8x base.

Net advantage eSOS by 6x base damage per d20 cycle, on 0 fort.

(yeah i know - with the parabolic system no one is likely missing only on a 1 anymore, but even if they both missed on 1-3 it would be the same net advantage - we are talking the same toon with different weapon)

[Boromirs]

Ok. Re-read it. Whats missing is accounting for the profile.

Hes also giving EAG 1k damage higher on crits and not explaining it.

A lower base damage weapon with an inferior crit profile does not outcrit a higher base damage weapon with superior crit profile.

The cleaver and eSOS are closer in base damage, but the eSOS still has the superior crit profile.

Huh? Both cleaver and the eaga have superior base dam over esos... are you sure we're talking about the same weapons here?

[Chai]

Huh? Both cleaver and the eaga have superior base dam over esos... are you sure we're talking about the same weapons here?

That doesnt account for 1k points per crit.

[Rauven]

Your math is wrong, but that's ok cause math never solves anything.

[Boromirs]

That doesnt account for 1k points per crit.

I'm surprised you don't see it yet. You pretty much answered your own question from that little chart you wrote up.

[Chai]

I'm surprised you don't see it yet. You pretty much answered your own question from that little chart you wrote up.

That little chart I wrote up shows eSOS ahead by 6x base damage per cycle.

5d6 + 10 = 3.5*5 = 17.5 + 10 = 27.5 base damage
5d8 + 7 = 4.5*5 = 22.5 + 7 = 29.5 base damage.

2 points of base damage somehow = 1k more per crit? My barbarian needs to use the same steroids yours does, heh.

I was actually hoping it was true. The grind of these axes doesnt seem near as crazy as the grind for the eSOS.

[sephiroth1084]

You cannot reason with someone who has so obviously abandoned reason for so long.