Concentration or No Concentration (post-u14)?

[EndingDoe]

I'm playing a multi-TR toon with 2xSorc, 2xFvS, and 2xMage past-lifes. My final life will be an evoker favored soul with starting INT of 9 for an extra skill point. So far I have always gone with max concentration and remaining points in balance.

After playing a mage quite a bit, I have come to like shadow walk and it looks like a good match for kiting through blade barriers. From wiki:

Transports you to the edge of the Material Plane where it borders the Plane of Shadow. While this spell is active, you receive a 40% Enhancement bonus to run speed, and your outline appears faint and you are harder to hit (50% Concealment). Attacking another creature, or otherwise interacting with objects shunts you back to the Material Plane. 15 minute duration.

So I'm considering of replacing concentration with UMD. Not only because of shadow walk, but because to me it seems like everything without quicken or fast-casting time gets interrupted anyway due to high damage.

The questions:
1. Replace concentration with UMD or not? Quicken is taken for granted for slow casts.
2. Can a FvS with 3 skill points per level reach 39pt UMD in a convinient way? I have the +1 UMD collector's item.
3. Post-u14, is it true that maximize applies to scrolls as well? Is it the same for quicken?
4. What's the point of keeping concentration post-u14?

[sirgog]

Concentration stops you losing scroll casts to enemy DoTs (there's lots of these in MOTU), to archer hits (relevant in a few places) and if you are not playing on Epic Elite, also prevents you losing casts to melee hits.

Definitely worth it, even if it is no longer effective at all on melee attacks in high level top-difficulty content.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Even if you never use it on top level EE content I'd still max out concentration for everything else. EE is not the only content in the game and its worthwhile to be able to run with quicken off in EN/EH/HE content to conserve SP for faster, more efficient completions.

Though, check the math on how much PRR a cleric/fvs can get and how much concentration you can get, I'd imagine that with due diligence in most EE content you could actually have a workable concentration score.

[samthedagger]

While it is true you will get clocked for 100+ damage quite regularly in epic content these days, you can also raise your concentration higher than before. Just for one example your epic destiny will give you up to +5 more once you cap it and some destinies give more. It is not irregular these days to see Concentration scores breaking the threshold of 70. It is well worthwhile. As others have pointed out scrolls can't be quickened (yet). And very high concentration scores are still useful.

[Matuse]

Maxxed out concentration is good for breaking slave collars without killing the slaves.

[EndingDoe]

Still undecided, since scroll-casting hasn't been very important so far. I'm sitting on a stack of 50 mana pots and no reason to use them, since the dungeons are easy enough without. I haven't tried the new epic elites yet, so I can't say about the difficulty, but Wax and Sirgog made it sound like that's exactly the place where concentration becomes obsolete.

This in mind, would you guys still choose it over UMD? If I took UMD, I could:
- Shadow walk, great for kiting.
- Blur and displace, maybe a reasonable alternative to greensteel (smoke).
- Support BB with fire trap, acid fog, and cloudkill. Cast before pulling the mobs.

I'm guessing that enemy DoT's, if they are now popular among the mobs, might be the reason to take concentration. I usually cast cometfalls and BBs without quicken, even while kiting.

[sirgog]

Still undecided, since scroll-casting hasn't been very important so far. I'm sitting on a stack of 50 mana pots and no reason to use them, since the dungeons are easy enough without. I haven't tried the new epic elites yet, so I can't say about the difficulty, but Wax and Sirgog made it sound like that's exactly the place where concentration becomes obsolete.

This in mind, would you guys still choose it over UMD? If I took UMD, I could:
- Shadow walk, great for kiting.
- Blur and displace, maybe a reasonable alternative to greensteel (smoke).
- Support BB with fire trap, acid fog, and cloudkill. Cast before pulling the mobs.

I'm guessing that enemy DoT's, if they are now popular among the mobs, might be the reason to take concentration. I usually cast cometfalls and BBs without quicken, even while kiting.

I would make the necessary changes to your build to fit both.

Enemy DOTs are common. Every Drow Priestess (a miniboss type that is not rare) casts Maximized Divine Punishment on EE (~53 a tick base, ~105 if you let them 2-stack it on you, possible but hard to mitigate). Various other casters will hit you with Niac's, and Yuan-Ti have a DoT as well although you won't get hit much by it if you are not in melee.

I really found that extra skill points (from being able to afford more Int) was one of the biggest advantages to TRing. A 12 Int isn't so expensive on a 36 point FvS.

[Matuse]

Max concentration
Max UMD
5-10 points of Balance
5-10 points of Jump
1 point of Tumble

And the number of quests where you benefit from having Bluff and/or Diplomacy only goes up, not down.

So yea, I put points into Int. 18 wisdom hasn't ever been worth it to me, and now with ED's, taking an 18 just seems like an intensely bad idea for the number of build points it requires.

The old argument about it being easier to even out your score at the top end has completely been blown out the door with Great <Stat> feats and ED stat enhancements. Also with the general increase in stats, the loss of 1-2 points of DC matters less now than before. Spell Penetration for people without 3 wizard PL's is the big consideration, and Wis doesn't help with that.

[EndingDoe]

Let's see. Starting INT of 10 and +2 tome at level 7. Based on online character generator, I'll get these base scores at level 20:
Concentration 23
Balance 7
UMD 11

CHA 14 base + 6 item + 2 capstone + 2 tome = 24 = +7
Base 11
Epic +5
Competence +5
Morale +4
Luck +2
Mask +1
Steel +5
== 40

Excluded epic Big Top, since I don't want to be swapping between hats. 40 points is enough for all the goodies anyway. Sticking +2 exceptional CHA would also make greater heroism unnecessary, since I could use the Good Hope -clicky from Epic Mask of Comedy instead.

Correct?

[Habreno]

Maxxed out concentration is good for breaking slave collars without killing the slaves.

60 DC on Epic Hard. Easily doable.


And 70+ is about normal Concentration for someone who focused on the skill. 80+ is normal.

[Matuse]

60 DC on Epic Hard. Easily doable.


And 70+ is about normal Concentration for someone who focused on the skill. 80+ is normal.

Mine is higher than 60 (I can't recall offhand exactly what it is) and on epic hard I fail collar rolls about 20-25% of the time.

You're not hitting 60 without a substantial point investment.

[justagame]

60 DC on Epic Hard. Easily doable.


And 70+ is about normal Concentration for someone who focused on the skill. 80+ is normal.

Breakdown please?

I have max ranks (23 at level 20)
+3 (level 23 atm)
+5 (28 CON)
+6 (in magister ED at the moment, won't always have this, and won't be twisting it)
+4 GH
+2 luck
+15 item

That's 58, and that's with a max skill point investment, buffs, item, etc. What else makes 70 to 80+ "normal"?

Edit -- I had a typo, 28 con gives you +9, not +5, of course. But that's still way short of 80+

[Chette]

I started with 8 int and 12 cha on my human FvS and have low 40s UMD at level 25. It can relatively easily be done, especially with the +5 to skills from epic levels.

I also have max concentration though, including an item, because you need concentration to cast scrolls while taking damage, and since your entire argument for wanting to take UMD is to cast scrolls in battle, you will definitely want concentration.

[Habreno]

Mine is higher than 60 (I can't recall offhand exactly what it is) and on epic hard I fail collar rolls about 20-25% of the time.

You're not hitting 60 without a substantial point investment.

I only ever failed 1 check, when I forgot to have a +1 Exceptional/+2 Insight CON piece on which brought me down to a 58 and I rolled a 1. Every single time I had the piece on I could not fail. And that's a very low Concentration for me, without any buffs plus not in some gear. Never failed any other checks. So, yes, it could be a 61 but I have likely suspicions on a 60 DC.

Breakdown please?

I have max ranks (23 at level 20)
+3 (level 23 atm)
+5 (28 CON)
+6 (in magister ED at the moment, won't always have this, and won't be twisting it)
+4 GH
+2 luck
+15 item

That's 58, and that's with a max skill point investment, buffs, item, etc. What else makes 70 to 80+ "normal"?

23 Ranks
6 Greensteel Skills (on your HP item, really only solid choice to take for the skills)
9 Con 28
15 Item

That's already a 53 without buffs or substantial investment.

1 Rage
4 GH
2 Luck

Already a 60 with little in the way of buffs.

5 Epic Levels (65)
1 Guild Ship CON (66)

I can think of many many many ways to buff that higher, but don't want to get called out on "requiring" classes to do it. But let's just say Human Versatility IV is +5 if you desperately need it (and that's not taken for the skill boost either, Damage Boost IV is 25% damage, thank you very much; Attack Boost IV is +8 to hit, etc...), Bard songs can be a lot, Primal Scream is more CON, other procs that affect CON, etc...

Even before the update at level 20 on my first life Elf Cleric I was still easily above 60 and seeing 70+ more than you'd think. Between new gear for more stat increases, 5 epic levels, and a pletheora of options from Epic Destinies, 70+ is easy to do and 80+ is really a normal buffed number for someone who cares.

[Matuse]

23 Ranks
6 Greensteel Skills (on your HP item, really only solid choice to take for the skills)
9 Con 28
15 Item

That's already a 53 without buffs or substantial investment.

For a class that has the lowest possible skillpoints per level, and no incentive at all to bump int beyond skillpoints, 23 ranks pretty well defines a substantial investment to me.

[justagame]

Even before the update at level 20 on my first life Elf Cleric I was still easily above 60 and seeing 70+ more than you'd think. Between new gear for more stat increases, 5 epic levels, and a pletheora of options from Epic Destinies, 70+ is easy to do and 80+ is really a normal buffed number for someone who cares.

Again, how? You just included 5 epic levels in your quote about how to get to 60. So again, how was 70 to 80 "normal" pre-update, when the cap was 20? That's 20 more points that come from... ??? (Forgive me if I don't count 20 second buffs in a definition of normal, that's not remotely sustainable). While I lack the greensteel CON bonus, (mine is air, also useful), I have all the other things you listed, plus 6 points from magister (which I could twist if I were so inclined) -- so that's a wash.

Not trying to be difficult, I am genuinely curious as to:

1. How does one do it -- get to 80+. Because I care.
2. In your view, are the incremental buffs to get from the 50's to 80+ considered "normal"?

[Habreno]

Again, how? You just included 5 epic levels in your quote about how to get to 60. So again, how was 70 to 80 "normal" pre-update, when the cap was 20? That's 20 more points that come from... ??? (Forgive me if I don't count 20 second buffs in a definition of normal, that's not remotely sustainable). While I lack the greensteel CON bonus, (mine is air, also useful), I have all the other things you listed, plus 6 points from magister (which I could twist if I were so inclined) -- so that's a wash.

Not trying to be difficult, I am genuinely curious as to:

1. How does one do it -- get to 80+. Because I care.
2. In your view, are the incremental buffs to get from the 50's to 80+ considered "normal"?

Since you insist on a definitive and absolute breakdown...

CON:

14 base
3 tome
8 item
1 exceptional
2 insightful
2 ship
2 yugo
1 epic enhancement
5 primal scream

38 CON. Not including things which are hard to get at cap or rather short or not useful to casting. Madstones, Alchemical Infusion, etc...


23 Skill Points
14 buffed CON modifier
6 CON skills
15 item
4 Greater Heroism
2 Luck
5 Epic Levels
4 Large Guild Augment Slot
2 Bard Epic +4 Stat song*
6 Concentration twist from Grandmaster of Flowers*
4 Heroic Enhancements*
6 Concentration twist from Magister*
2 Walk of the Sun Monk Finishing move**
5 Moment of Clarity Monk Finishing Move***
5 Action Boost-Skills***

*Uncommon
**Rare/Short
***Extremely Rare/Short

Total without any *, **, or *** : 73. Not that hard to expand from there.

And at Matuse: What else are you wasting your skillpoints on? The only thing I could possibly see would be UMD, but then you'd want Concentration even more for using the scrolls in combat.

[Matuse]

And at Matuse: What else are you wasting your skillpoints on? The only thing I could possibly see would be UMD, but then you'd want Concentration even more for using the scrolls in combat.

From earlier in the thread:

Max concentration
Max UMD
5-10 points of Balance
5-10 points of Jump
1 point of Tumble

And the number of quests where you benefit from having Bluff and/or Diplomacy only goes up, not down.

[Habreno]

From earlier in the thread:

Max Concentration, yeah.

Max UMD, okay.

After the +2 tome you can hit Balance for 6-7 points.

Jump is completely unnecessary, and if you really want that point of Tumble, pull a point of Balance. 10 base INT, 8 with Human, is not much investment.