Maximize and Empower. Worth it anymore?

[Kinerd]

Well yes, He said that you get 2.25X the BASE dmg for both maximize and empower which is absolutely correct and has no other variable to consider.

Your variable increase as a percentage of the total dmg is correct in its own right but is also somewhat misleading as you could just as easily rearrange it to state the other spell power add ons from items etc have a smaller increase in effectiveness due to empower already upping the total dmg done. It's just statistical manipulation.

The poster you quoted has the only definitive actual quantitative increase which is a .75x base dmg increase for the empower feat. The increase is a constant dmg number no matter how many other spellpower increases you have.

As to the op's question overall It's a choice but I still have empower on my wizard and my sorc and won't drop either. As a wizard sure it is less effective than a sorc but your feats are also more plentiful meaning the opportunity cost of empower is less. I don't nuke too frequently on my wizard but when I do I want it to do the most amount of dmg in as little amount of time as possible and empower makes that happen. If I want more sustainable but less strong nukes in a situation I just turn off empower.

There is a phrase I have not heard in awhile.

If you would permit me to ask you a tangential question: on occasions where you could use both Empower and Maximize, do you ever find yourself with literally no enhancements, no Potency, no other spell power whatsoever? If not, who is doing the statistical manipulation and who is offering relevant advice?

[LeLoric]

There is a phrase I have not heard in awhile.

If you would permit me to ask you a tangential question: on occasions where you could use both Empower and Maximize, do you ever find yourself with literally no enhancements, no Potency, no other spell power whatsoever? If not, who is doing the statistical manipulation and who is offering relevant advice?

I didn't tell someone they were wrong when they where absolutely correct.

To answer your question no but those items and values often fluctuate and therefore are only relevant to the specific. The post you quoted and said was wrong is in no way ever wrong regardless of situation it is the only absolute.

Empower multiplies your base dmg by 1.75. This is the only absolutely true statement and you claimed it false.

Your explanation is a conditional if you have x (other spell power) than empower is y (percentage of total value) By changing the value of x you change the value of y. Conditionals are easily manipulated that's why scientists use conditionals as they can control x to get a predicted y.

Not sure why you have a problem with the term statistical manipulation it's not a negative connotation it's just that you can reprogram the statistic to get different results. Pretty simple math concept there.

[MRMechMan]

There is a phrase I have not heard in awhile.

If you would permit me to ask you a tangential question: on occasions where you could use both Empower and Maximize, do you ever find yourself with literally no enhancements, no Potency, no other spell power whatsoever? If not, who is doing the statistical manipulation and who is offering relevant advice?

Well the 2.25 is absolutely right. That is like him saying "a quarter is 1/4 of the $1 coke at McDonalds"...and then you saying "no it isn't, because how often do you just have a coke at McDonalds?"

Empower is definitely something I would consider swapping out on a non-sorc, looking at the numbers more closely...assuming the maximized/emp scrolls is a bug and will get fixed.

[varusso]

<ahem>

An extra 75 points out of every 100 points of damage is an extra 75 points, no matter how you try to shuffle the math around in a semantic argument. This is what Empower does, whether you have other gear/enhancements/metas along with it or not, and regardless of which order you decide to calculate the boost to try and up-play or downplay its usefulness. That is all you need to know to decide whether or not you want to keep it for nukes or swap it out for something else.

Note: certain spells and SLAs (divine and arcane) receive only half of your total sPOW boost. There is also some debate about whether or not some divine offensive spells are (unintentionally) not getting the full sPOW boost:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=383374

[sirgog]

Maximize is still must-have.

Empower is still a good feat but may no longer be better than some others.

The big change is that now you don't leave them permanently active. Against trash mobs or even bosses that are not threatening, it's perfectly reasonable now to throw unmeta'ed spells to conserve SP.

[Kinerd]

I didn't tell someone they were wrong when they where absolutely correct.

To answer your question no but those items and values often fluctuate and therefore are only relevant to the specific. The post you quoted and said was wrong is in no way ever wrong regardless of situation it is the only absolute.

Empower multiplies your base dmg by 1.75. This is the only absolutely true statement and you claimed it false.

Well the 2.25 is absolutely right. That is like him saying "a quarter is 1/4 of the $1 coke at McDonalds"...and then you saying "no it isn't, because how often do you just have a coke at McDonalds?"

I see now. I have good news! In update 14, the way Empower (and all other feats) interacted with other forms of enhanced spell damage was changed. Instead of...

base * feats * (enhancements + items)

We now have...

base * (feats + enhancements + items)

This is why it is not correct to say "Empower multiplies your base dmg by 1.75", because it adds 75 to whatever your other spell power is. As I said, if you have no enhancements or items, then it would be correct to talk about multiplication, but as you agree that is such an unreasonable situation that it does not warrant mentioning. Put another way: turning on Empower never (essentially) multiplies your damage by 1.75. To exclusively refer to them as multiplication really only serves to cloud the issue.

I'm glad we were able to reach an understanding, and I appreciate your clarifying.

[LeLoric]

I see now. I have good news! In update 14, the way Empower (and all other feats) interacted with other forms of enhanced spell damage was changed. Instead of...

base * feats * (enhancements + items)

We now have...

base * (feats + enhancements + items)

This is why it is not correct to say "Empower multiplies your base dmg by 1.75", because it adds 75 to whatever your other spell power is. As I said, if you have no enhancements or items, then it would be correct to talk about multiplication, but as you agree that is such an unreasonable situation that it does not warrant mentioning. Put another way: turning on Empower never (essentially) multiplies your damage by 1.75. To exclusively refer to them as multiplication really only serves to cloud the issue.

I'm glad we were able to reach an understanding, and I appreciate your clarifying.

Wow what part of base dmg do you not understand. We clearly understand how things work in U14 but I don't know what update you are on. Don't go acting like you've corrected or set us straight when you have done nothing of the sort. The only one clouding the issue is you by taking an absolute 1.75 X base dmg and converting it into a non absolute dependant on other information that varies per character.

Noone ever said it multiplies your dmg by 1.75 we said it multiplies your BASE<-----flashy neon sign pointing right here!!!!!! dmg (i.e.: the dmg done by the spell before any spell power modifiers ex: 20d3+60 dmg from delayed blast fireball.)