Maximize and Empower. Worth it anymore?

[bradleyforrest]

Been away for a while and about to start playing my PM again (lives 3 and 4.) I know that Empower and Maximize are now additive instead of multiplicative and that their values are now +75 and +150, respectively. That said, because they are now additive, are they worth picking up anymore? Are they no longer must-haves?

[Jsbeer]

I would definitely still keep Maximize as it is a decent DPS boost but although I still have Empower I might consider swapping it for a spell focus.

[Qezuzu]

Yes. You get 2.25x the base damage. It's still nice.

[Kinerd]

Yes. You get 2.25x the base damage. It's still nice.

Well, no. The multiplication depends on how much other spell power you have.

IF you have no Equipment (Potency, Combustion, etc.) or Implement (+3, +4, etc.) or Enhancement (Storm Manipulation etc.) Spell Power, then your start is...
100 base
+ 150 maximize = 250, a 150% increase
+ 75 empower = 325, a 30% increase (or 225% total)

IF you have a +5, Magnetism 108 item and Storm Manipulation 7, your start is...
(100 base + 15 implement + 108 equipment + 100 enhancement) = 323 spell power
(+ 150 maximize) = 473, a 46% increase
(+ 75 empower) = 548, a 16% increase (or 70% total)

I would not take Empower on a Wizard. I would take Maximize on a Wizard. I would take both on a Sorcerer.

[LeLoric]

Well, no. The multiplication depends on how much other spell power you have.

Well yes, He said that you get 2.25X the BASE dmg for both maximize and empower which is absolutely correct and has no other variable to consider.

Your variable increase as a percentage of the total dmg is correct in its own right but is also somewhat misleading as you could just as easily rearrange it to state the other spell power add ons from items etc have a smaller increase in effectiveness due to empower already upping the total dmg done. It's just statistical manipulation.

The poster you quoted has the only definitive actual quantitative increase which is a .75x base dmg increase for the empower feat. The increase is a constant dmg number no matter how many other spellpower increases you have.

As to the op's question overall It's a choice but I still have empower on my wizard and my sorc and won't drop either. As a wizard sure it is less effective than a sorc but your feats are also more plentiful meaning the opportunity cost of empower is less. I don't nuke too frequently on my wizard but when I do I want it to do the most amount of dmg in as little amount of time as possible and empower makes that happen. If I want more sustainable but less strong nukes in a situation I just turn off empower.

[Kinerd]

Well yes, He said that you get 2.25X the BASE dmg for both maximize and empower which is absolutely correct and has no other variable to consider.

Your variable increase as a percentage of the total dmg is correct in its own right but is also somewhat misleading as you could just as easily rearrange it to state the other spell power add ons from items etc have a smaller increase in effectiveness due to empower already upping the total dmg done. It's just statistical manipulation.

The poster you quoted has the only definitive actual quantitative increase which is a .75x base dmg increase for the empower feat. The increase is a constant dmg number no matter how many other spellpower increases you have.

As to the op's question overall It's a choice but I still have empower on my wizard and my sorc and won't drop either. As a wizard sure it is less effective than a sorc but your feats are also more plentiful meaning the opportunity cost of empower is less. I don't nuke too frequently on my wizard but when I do I want it to do the most amount of dmg in as little amount of time as possible and empower makes that happen. If I want more sustainable but less strong nukes in a situation I just turn off empower.

There is a phrase I have not heard in awhile.

If you would permit me to ask you a tangential question: on occasions where you could use both Empower and Maximize, do you ever find yourself with literally no enhancements, no Potency, no other spell power whatsoever? If not, who is doing the statistical manipulation and who is offering relevant advice?

[LeLoric]

There is a phrase I have not heard in awhile.

If you would permit me to ask you a tangential question: on occasions where you could use both Empower and Maximize, do you ever find yourself with literally no enhancements, no Potency, no other spell power whatsoever? If not, who is doing the statistical manipulation and who is offering relevant advice?

I didn't tell someone they were wrong when they where absolutely correct.

To answer your question no but those items and values often fluctuate and therefore are only relevant to the specific. The post you quoted and said was wrong is in no way ever wrong regardless of situation it is the only absolute.

Empower multiplies your base dmg by 1.75. This is the only absolutely true statement and you claimed it false.

Your explanation is a conditional if you have x (other spell power) than empower is y (percentage of total value) By changing the value of x you change the value of y. Conditionals are easily manipulated that's why scientists use conditionals as they can control x to get a predicted y.

Not sure why you have a problem with the term statistical manipulation it's not a negative connotation it's just that you can reprogram the statistic to get different results. Pretty simple math concept there.

[MRMechMan]

There is a phrase I have not heard in awhile.

If you would permit me to ask you a tangential question: on occasions where you could use both Empower and Maximize, do you ever find yourself with literally no enhancements, no Potency, no other spell power whatsoever? If not, who is doing the statistical manipulation and who is offering relevant advice?

Well the 2.25 is absolutely right. That is like him saying "a quarter is 1/4 of the $1 coke at McDonalds"...and then you saying "no it isn't, because how often do you just have a coke at McDonalds?"

Empower is definitely something I would consider swapping out on a non-sorc, looking at the numbers more closely...assuming the maximized/emp scrolls is a bug and will get fixed.

[varusso]

<ahem>

An extra 75 points out of every 100 points of damage is an extra 75 points, no matter how you try to shuffle the math around in a semantic argument. This is what Empower does, whether you have other gear/enhancements/metas along with it or not, and regardless of which order you decide to calculate the boost to try and up-play or downplay its usefulness. That is all you need to know to decide whether or not you want to keep it for nukes or swap it out for something else.

Note: certain spells and SLAs (divine and arcane) receive only half of your total sPOW boost. There is also some debate about whether or not some divine offensive spells are (unintentionally) not getting the full sPOW boost:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=383374

[aristarchus1000]

Even before the change,I would always level using maximize only, and pick up empower at level 18 or so.

[Matuse]

Even before the change,I would always level using maximize only, and pick up empower at level 18 or so.

And I always did the opposite. Maximize costs too much SP at lower levels; your SP pool can't sustain it worth a **** and the damage it gives is giant overkill that simply isn't needed and is definitely not worth the giant step-up in SP.

Now though, Empower and Maximize work on scrolls, so on my TR I took them very early, and now I do ZOMG damage without spending any SP at all. I don't imagine that will hold up past about level 11. Level 6 scrolls cost too much to be blowing 20-40 of them per quest.

[Scraap]

Now though, Empower and Maximize work on scrolls, so on my TR I took them very early, and now I do ZOMG damage without spending any SP at all. I don't imagine that will hold up past about level 11. Level 6 scrolls cost too much to be blowing 20-40 of them per quest.

Y'know, if thats WAI, I am so making feat-space on my arty... Might even be enough to make up for not having an offhand spellpower booster for em (assuming that's WAI)

[Myrrae]

They work on scrolls? Do they also work on wands? I hadn't heard about the change there.

[Jaid314]

They work on scrolls? Do they also work on wands? I hadn't heard about the change there.

spellpower is currently working on scrolls in general. i guess i hadn't made the connection to max and empower working on scrolls, but when he mentioned they do, well... i guess that kinda doesn't surprise me.

[MRMechMan]

I would still take both on arti/sorc/wizard/fvs/clr.

But dropping empower isn't the end of the world really-as long as you are picking up something good instead.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

So...

Metamagics Maximise and Empower work on spells cast from scrolls?

I've got Toughness, TWF, and Maximise on my level 7 Druid atm. Took maximise early because I'll need the feat slots later for ITWF and GTWF after my BAB improves.

It's toggled off most the time unless I gather a huge group of mobs.

I also found the magic of Ice Storm Scrolls at level 5. Even at 75% chance its suhweet.

But now I'm at 7 and can memorize Flame Strike and Ice Storm.

And use the scrolls with no fail....

All of sudden reconsidering swapping Maximise for Quicken

[Jaid314]

All of sudden reconsidering swapping Maximise for Quicken

quicken most likely won't work on scrolls. maximise and empower are working because they boost spell power, not because metamagics are working on scrolls, per se.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

quicken most likely won't work on scrolls. maximise and empower are working because they boost spell power, not because metamagics are working on scrolls, per se.

Keeping Maximise....I was thinking of trading Maximise out and getting Quicken.

At level 7 Druid, Quicken is marginally better than Maximise due to the low spell point pool for me.

It's my 7th life...I like melee. My last life was Conjuration WF AM with Heavy Focus in Spell DCs.

I like the Arcane Classes....Absolutely Hate playing Spell Casters in DDO (You are not facing...., Out of range...)

So this life building a TWF, Khopesh Druid. Level 12 will more than likely be a Fighter level for the extra Feat, BAB, Haste Boost...

In this life I view ALL my Druid Spells as Weapon Buffs.

Working out great so far (but at this point level 1-8ish pretty much plays the same)

But....

If Maximise works with scrolls....even for a short period of time till next patch I will USE THE H OUTTA EM and keep Maximise around. Taking the Fighter level lets me fit Quicken in too so prolly won't change it out.

[Chette]

Maximize is usually still worth it. Empower depends on what you would be taking instead.

Some of the good epic enhancements for casters have feat prerequisites, so I had to drop empower in order to get the twists that I wanted. It was a fair trade off for my situation, but it all really depends what you're getting for what you give up.

If you're a sorc you'll definitely want it for your SLAs, that's the only class I'd consider it a must have for.

[Rawel_San]

I have been debating this for a long time now and I'm very seriously considering dropping empower for
greater spell pen so I can grab epic spell pen and hit 58/61 spell pen. That (according to current data) is
pretty much no fail spell pen on everything in game currently. It will mean a fairly large sacrifice in dps due
mainly to having to respec enhancements but considering that unless I'm soloing by far the largest part of my
contribution is instakilling and holding/dancing mobs that extra spell pen just seems to be worth it to make sure
every non red named priestess is just standing there dancing and all the hard hitting drow trash dies to wail/circle
of death.

This is ofcourse for epic/elite only epic hard the spell pen threshhold is low to mid 40's it seems.