Whilst your nerfing, nerf dots.

[Persiflage]

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to MRMechMan again.

Wish I could though...

Agreed. Got that for ya

[daniel7]

A: DOTs definitely aren't over powered on wizards and clerics due to their limited SP pool. Now you could argue that mana pots need to be nerfed but that's been argued for years now and probably won't change.

B: DOTs on sorcerers seem to be fair to me for two reasons:
1. Many mobs have elemental resistance (none have melee resistance if you have dr breakers)
2. At least melees get some hits in, PMs only let you kill the ones that don't have deathward, some bards charm everything, etc.

C: Divine Punishment on a FVS is awesome. Nothing is immune to light damage and FVS have a large mana pool. I wouldn't, however, say that its broken. Also, why push to nerf any healing class, we could always use more of them in DDO.

D: Don't party with casters if you really hate it. You can always build your party the way you want it.

[MsEricka]

Your post indicates that you either aren't familiar with melee characters, or are doing them wrong.

Wrong on both accounts, and -1 for trying to sound cool and instead coming out insulting.

I do have more fun on casters while listening to whiny melee complain about things that don't matter like kill counts and aggro not being on the supposed "tank".

One of Mo's lives was partially run with myself and a favored soul. We would regularly nuke whatever he was attacking just for the giggles.

Of course, everyone missed the point of my earlier post. If someone whines that class A is over powered then someone who runs that class should be free to whine that class B is over powered.

Fair is fair, we all get to whine this way.

[Hendrik]

Your post indicates that you either aren't familiar with melee characters, or are doing them wrong.

And for how long have you been grouping with MSE?

???


All you need to know is that he IS the danger in the woods....

[Jay203]

I am talking about typical melee.

Urgh smash! Urgh smash good!

Archers are not typical melee...in fact they are not melee at all

Monk splashes, self healing via scrolls, stuns, flanking, tactics, damage avoidance require some skill/thought are some things that IDEALLY melee might use...but as someone who plays mostly divines and SEES the way melee play, I can absolutely state that most melee have no idea about

-positioning
-self healing
-how to make a healers job easier
-tactics
-damage mitigation/avoidance
-agro/hate

Most go in, all out, madstoned and raged and grabbing agro from everything in sight, not a care in the world for resources used or how they can make an encounter easier for the group.

You ever done a pug EDQ2 on a divine? The number of melees I have seen die from standing in stupid places is incredible. No matter how many times I can say "smack her tail" "stand behind her" "let the 1200hp stalwart tank", you will still get that moronic barb with zero amp trying to go toe to toe with her when someone else has the agro and is tanking.

Same goes with a lot of bosses. How hard is it to stand BEHIND horoth when the tank is doing his thing? Really tough, apparantly. Most melee have little sense of self preservation because they always have the healer to blame when they eat it. Casters don't really have anyone to blame if they die but themselves, and have resources to conserve, so generally play a hell of a lot smarter.

Sure, I've seen some stupid/awful casters. But a hell of a lot more melee.

Is it difficult to play some melee builds well? Absolutely. On a good melee that is geared and built well, you probably have a zillion things to be clicking and buffs to keep active and items to swap, absorb gear/resist/pots/scrolls/stances yadda yadda.

I'd say 80%+ of melee don't even bother going for that level of depth or complexity in a character though.

but now we're getting on topic of the player intelligence
not to mention you kind of just proved my point, melees actually requires more thoughts in positioning, when to pull out, etc etc
while casters just throw down spells while jumping around like jack rabits

and reason why a lot of players don't think when playing melees nowadays is because they assume they'll be healed by their babysitter
that's why i say assuming no babysitter

[psi0nix]

I fail to see how pushing more or less buttons is a measure of "intelligence".

There is skill sure, but that's different.

I do think to play casters effectively you do need a little more "skill" than playing a flat basic full ****** DPS barb. There are heaps of builds that are not like that though, so it's impossible to put a blanket statement out there that all melee are like that, it's also impossible to put the same type of statement out there that all casters are the "waltz through dungeons with seemingly unlimited SP" types.

I play both caster and melee, my favourite is casters, because well, I just like magic and junk my favourite books are series like Magician (Raymond E. Feist), so I just have that preference, it has nothing to do with one being more able than the other.

I don't play Divines, why ? , because I am not good at it, and need practice with them, why ? , because they take a lot of "awareness" to play, and until you've actually tried to maintain damage and keep a party alive at the same time while keeping yourself live, then you have no idea just how hard that is. Sounds easy sure.....

I rolled a Fvs (Evoker), and ended up just racing to 20, nothing wrong with the build purely a case of not handling the amount of things you need to manage at once.

That's not to say Wizards and sorcs do not require "awareness" but they're a little easier in the regard you just kill, keep yourself alive, crowd control, throw buffs.

My melee toons, are basically kill, stay alive.
I have built them to have some form of self healing though, my monk is a light monk, and my barb has everything into UMD that I can. And the druid, well, it's a driud, not even sure if it counts as melee.

My suggestion is to leave the classes alone, we do NOT want nerfs, I just cannot see the logic in those calling for nerfs especially when it's to classes that they don't "fully" play, having an alt you jump on from time to time isn't really like running one as your main, and if it's not your preferred class to play then why should you really be trying to make changes to it ?

To make the game harder for others, not yourself. see my previous post for more on that.

[Matuse]

Nothing is immune to light damage

*sigh* This is not true. Never has been true.

[daniel7]

*sigh* This is not true. Never has been true.

You are probably right but I just can't think of any mobs that are immune to light right now. Who is immune to light in DDO?

[MRMechMan]

You are probably right but I just can't think of any mobs that are immune to light right now. Who is immune to light in DDO?

Try soloing snitch on a divine and get back to me, for one.

[daniel7]

Try soloing snitch on a divine and get back to me, for one.

Ok I'll do it when my clonk gets to 20. I'm guessing the construct is immune to light.

[slimkj]

Dev's you obviously don't seem to understand, but this game sucks for melee now, they're irrelevant.

This is opinion stated as fact. I am playing melee now through choice, and over and above all my casters, and having great fun.

The game has changed. I'm not sure if you've played a melee recently and experienced some of the new abilities and systems on offer now. If you haven't, you could try. I'm really enjoying it!

Please stop asking for more nerfs.

[ruafei]

They just made gave us a nearly worthless Wail to anyone with good necro DCs, and now you expect Turbine to nerf us again? Why not take away spells from the game period?

Let me explain to you how tanking works: You wear thick armor, you grab aggro, and you keep it until people with better DPS kill it. When I play a DoS Paladin, I do not expect to have more than 10 kills. I expect to keep the party alive while the divine keeps me alive and somebody else beats on the monsters. I don't have a huge ego that takes a beating when I don't top the kill list, because I understand the concept of teamwork. How many times did the party die? If 0, job well done. If a few traps got you, work on marching order. If the sorc got aggro and died, subtle spellcasting 4 could have helped. If you're a whiny little b!tch who thinks that favored souls should only heal, or that the cleric should always have you targeted, GTFO.

(+ 10 for that post if I could...and now...)

But that would imply teamwork on some level wouldn't it? We can't have toons filling a role, don't you know - we all have to be batman AND race to the top of the kill count or else we're gimps.*eyeroll*

btw - Realy? The mobile artillery got a higher kill count than the infantry? Nooo....you don't say?
/[Sarcasm]

[Postumus]

Dev's you obviously don't seem to understand, but this game sucks for melee now, they're irrelevant.

Dude, would you please just shut your nerf-hole?

[Thaxlsillyia]

bla bla bla.. casters are OP... bla bla bla... melee dps stink... bla bla bla...

why is this a new thread?

while at it unnerf my wail :/ this new one stinks... can no longer do that passage in running with the devils the way i want it... one of few pleasures i still had in this game.


:/ and if they nerf rogues one more time.... i will.. i will.. i will cry

[PopeJual]

I'm very much enjoying both my casters and my melee currently.

My one ranged character is currently locked in the basement and chained to a radiator, but everyone else is happy.

[Bilger]

I'm very much enjoying both my casters and my melee currently.

My one ranged character is currently locked in the basement and chained to a radiator, but everyone else is happy.

Same, including range character comment.

DOT's need no nerfing as others have stated if can't match dps with a barb or pure melee build then need to do something else or reroll. Only time a DOT will out due a melee(or should) is on a highly vulnerable to that energy type target with a savant specced in that damage.

I have capped every class at 20 before this mod and working all up(accept AA and Arti range bug). Depending on what's needed at time. Having a blast with filling all the different roles again. I see nothing more powerful than the next if played right.

I just don't see all this whining for nerfs. If any classes should complain it is rangers, bards, and clerics. Who do seem to be slightly I say slightly behind the pack in ways.

[V_mad_jester_V]

I am talking about typical melee.

Urgh smash! Urgh smash good!

Archers are not typical melee...in fact they are not melee at all

Monk splashes, self healing via scrolls, stuns, flanking, tactics, damage avoidance require some skill/thought are some things that IDEALLY melee might use...but as someone who plays mostly divines and SEES the way melee play, I can absolutely state that most melee have no idea about

-positioning
-self healing
-how to make a healers job easier
-tactics
-damage mitigation/avoidance
-agro/hate

Most go in, all out, madstoned and raged and grabbing agro from everything in sight, not a care in the world for resources used or how they can make an encounter easier for the group.

You ever done a pug EDQ2 on a divine? The number of melees I have seen die from standing in stupid places is incredible. No matter how many times I can say "smack her tail" "stand behind her" "let the 1200hp stalwart tank", you will still get that moronic barb with zero amp trying to go toe to toe with her when someone else has the agro and is tanking.

Same goes with a lot of bosses. How hard is it to stand BEHIND horoth when the tank is doing his thing? Really tough, apparantly. Most melee have little sense of self preservation because they always have the healer to blame when they eat it. Casters don't really have anyone to blame if they die but themselves, and have resources to conserve, so generally play a hell of a lot smarter.

Sure, I've seen some stupid/awful casters. But a hell of a lot more melee.

Is it difficult to play some melee builds well? Absolutely. On a good melee that is geared and built well, you probably have a zillion things to be clicking and buffs to keep active and items to swap, absorb gear/resist/pots/scrolls/stances yadda yadda.

I'd say 80%+ of melee don't even bother going for that level of depth or complexity in a character though.

my tactics stand as this. Caster puts up disco ball, ranged pulls aggro (when applicable) let the mobs come to us, those not dancing get killed first starting with divines/arcanes, armored melee, unarmored melee, archers (sometimes archers come right after divines/arcanes depending on amount present).

Im flanking built, so i tend to want to stand behind the enemies to output the highest potential dmg possible per second. Now while i try and play with some tactics, there are times when i try to leave combat, get somewhere to duck out for a bit (to heal up) and boom im dead. There are other times while drinking a pot or 10, that, the moment i let my guard down im dead. Along with that drinking 10 pots just to keep myself up is ridiculous and expensive (45% healing amp, 20% from dt, 25% from jidz bracers).
Wanna do some math? 10 pots per fight, 20 fights is 200 pots, thats roughly 8-12k plat if not more depending on where you bought your pots. Scrolls dont seem to be cheap either, and im not putting my skill points into umd cuz they go into othe skills such as jump and concentration (i like my monk builds) . So yes being a caster can be expensive (with blue pots and spell components) being a self sufficient melee is much more expensive (cuz we dont get the spells needed for self healing unless we splash with healing classing, clonk or pale monks)

Alright
market vendor without haggle stack of 100 cure mod 3600pp
Meridia vendor without haggle stack of 100 cure serious 9000pp
Guild vendor without haggle stack of 100 cure serious 7500pp

Cleric empowered heal spell 35 sp
Wiz 100 sp to go undead, 35 sp for death aura 25 sp for lesser death aura.

Lets continue weighing out melee v caster self healing

On my clonk i can cast heal, heal critical, and heal seroius wounds in quick session.

On my pale monk i can heal for 30 a tick from death aura, up to bout 10 a tick from my lesser. and 80-100 per blast.

my rogue/monk can only heal 20 something per pot every 3-4 sec or however long the cooldown is for using a pot.

Playing a pure melee is much harder and much more tedious then the kite them around experience while hitting myself with heals as i go.

While im not saying that divines need to just stick to healing, i do say, if they CANT multitask and do their job they were signed up to do, then they shouldnt be dps'ing. There are times when i have a divine in my group and my first question is "are you healer or combat specced" and if they say combat i look for a healer, those who tell me healer i expect them to heal. Again too expensive for me to buy pots (i understand blue pots are expensive but as many have pointed out, and with personal experience, blue pots dont matter, self healing is easy as a caster, and there are enough shrines to keep you going), and too much risk using pots.


Arcanes, I dont mind if they nuke, but please cast mass hold or dancing sphere. For instance, arcane holds group, then nukes the living **** outta them. This is also useful cuz A. the team as a whole takes less damage. B. theres less of a chance you have to scramble to protect you healer who just went down but not dead yet. So arcanes please still cast mass hold/dancing sphere, but dont feel like your restricted to just that.

I have played an arcane/divine, and i know by being SMART you can have sp to spare by the time you get to the next shrine.

end story, end argument, there is synergy in team can work, and can be fun, not be restriced, and not get bored.

Divines can heal and dot bosses (blade barries are also useful for trash, and tons o fun)
Arcanes can still cc and nuke the mobs they cc
and melees can clean up and attack cc'ed mobs (after non cc mobs are killed)

no one looses everyone gets what they want, its just a matter on YOU PEOPLE, either you play like a team or not is up to you. So quit whining on how which class is op, and start working together and create that synergy.

[MRMechMan]

Divines don't owe you heals.

Arcanes certainly don't owe you mass holds.

I'll generally lay down either when on that respective class type, but if a melee is going full r3t@rd I'll let them die if they are a hazard to the group, will force me to drink pots to spot heal them, are agroing stuff needlessly, etc.

If you are using cure serious pots, congrats, you are doing more than most melee. But, consider SF pots or UMD as they are far more effective.

Your attitude is why I don't really pug my divines unless it is on my own terms. If someone asks me if I am a healer or a melee, that is a sure sign they only want a healer, and generally get ****y if I swing an ESOS or cast an implosion or do anything but heal...even if the party is doing fine, no deaths, everyone topped up, etc. If the cheapest and fastest way to get through an encounter is to blade barrier kite (1-2 spells), I am not gonna spam heals to keep the melee up (10-20 spells or more). Sorry, my blue bar is your red bar, until you break that trust by being a terrible player.

Your attitude is why I don't really pug my arcanes unless it is on my own terms. It isn't as big an issue as when on a divine, but when the melee DEMAND a disco ball be kept up or that I cast mass hold, well F*ck off. If I am on a necro wiz or nuking sorc and have 80% of the kills in a group why the hell would I waste sp so some gimp melee can pat themselves on the back? CC is often not needed. You want CC on a melee? stun stuff, chase stuff down, trip, para weps, stat damage weps...be your own CC, just because a target is not dancing doesn't mean you cannot hit it.

I'm all for teamwork, but when someone demands that I play my characters in a certain way, often an INeffecient way, that is a dealbreaker. I can generally see the big picture very well and I know who is contributing, and what actions I should take to make the quest go smoothly, quickly and potlessly.

Honestly...saying a melee can ONLY beat down CCed mobs, waiting for agro despite disco ball, ducking out of combat to drink cure mod pots, pulling 1 enemy at a time with ranged, no UMD investment, no SF pots, saying the healer will die if no disco ball...I think we just have very different playsyles, that's all. You sound like you are bringing more to the group than a lot of melee but leave a lot to be desired.

[V_mad_jester_V]

Divines don't owe you heals.

Arcanes certainly don't owe you mass holds.

I'll generally lay down either when on that respective class type, but if a melee is going full r3t@rd I'll let them die if they are a hazard to the group, will force me to drink pots to spot heal them, are agroing stuff needlessly, etc.

If you are using cure serious pots, congrats, you are doing more than most melee. But, consider SF pots or UMD as they are far more effective.

Your attitude is why I don't really pug my divines unless it is on my own terms. If someone asks me if I am a healer or a melee, that is a sure sign they only want a healer, and generally get ****y if I swing an ESOS or cast an implosion or do anything but heal...even if the party is doing fine, no deaths, everyone topped up, etc. If the cheapest and fastest way to get through an encounter is to blade barrier kite (1-2 spells), I am not gonna spam heals to keep the melee up (10-20 spells or more). Sorry, my blue bar is your red bar, until you break that trust by being a terrible player.

Your attitude is why I don't really pug my arcanes unless it is on my own terms. It isn't as big an issue as when on a divine, but when the melee DEMAND a disco ball be kept up or that I cast mass hold, well F*ck off. If I am on a necro wiz or nuking sorc and have 80% of the kills in a group why the hell would I waste sp so some gimp melee can pat themselves on the back? CC is often not needed. You want CC on a melee? stun stuff, chase stuff down, trip, para weps, stat damage weps...be your own CC, just because a target is not dancing doesn't mean you cannot hit it.

I'm all for teamwork, but when someone demands that I play my characters in a certain way, often an INeffecient way, that is a dealbreaker. I can generally see the big picture very well and I know who is contributing, and what actions I should take to make the quest go smoothly, quickly and potlessly.
[/quote]
im not talking about forcing anyone to do anything im talking about synergy, a win win, if a caster has good cc then use it, have less mobs moving around and more controlled. thats a tactical stand point, less healing intensive, and more efficient. If you got it then use it, when in a raid i try to get one cc one nuker, that works nicely together. always try and get a tank to peal aggro off squishies who dont have hate reducing equipment/enhancements. what i demand is people play the role they tell me they are simply put.

Honestly...saying a melee can ONLY beat down CCed mobs, waiting for agro despite disco ball, ducking out of combat to drink cure mod pots, pulling 1 enemy at a time with ranged, no UMD investment, no SF pots, saying the healer will die if no disco ball...I think we just have very different playsyles, that's all. You sound like you are bringing more to the group than a lot of melee but leave a lot to be desired.

no what i said was melees beat on mobs that arent under cc effects. mobs under cc effects dont need to be handled till they make their save, mobs not under cc effects are running rampant. In no way did i say be forced to be a healbot/ccbot, ect, i said do your job you signed up for.

[V_mad_jester_V]

Divines don't owe you heals.

Arcanes certainly don't owe you mass holds.

I'll generally lay down either when on that respective class type, but if a melee is going full r3t@rd I'll let them die if they are a hazard to the group, will force me to drink pots to spot heal them, are agroing stuff needlessly, etc.

If you are using cure serious pots, congrats, you are doing more than most melee. But, consider SF pots or UMD as they are far more effective.

Your attitude is why I don't really pug my divines unless it is on my own terms. If someone asks me if I am a healer or a melee, that is a sure sign they only want a healer, and generally get ****y if I swing an ESOS or cast an implosion or do anything but heal...even if the party is doing fine, no deaths, everyone topped up, etc. If the cheapest and fastest way to get through an encounter is to blade barrier kite (1-2 spells), I am not gonna spam heals to keep the melee up (10-20 spells or more). Sorry, my blue bar is your red bar, until you break that trust by being a terrible player.

Your attitude is why I don't really pug my arcanes unless it is on my own terms. It isn't as big an issue as when on a divine, but when the melee DEMAND a disco ball be kept up or that I cast mass hold, well F*ck off. If I am on a necro wiz or nuking sorc and have 80% of the kills in a group why the hell would I waste sp so some gimp melee can pat themselves on the back? CC is often not needed. You want CC on a melee? stun stuff, chase stuff down, trip, para weps, stat damage weps...be your own CC, just because a target is not dancing doesn't mean you cannot hit it.

I'm all for teamwork, but when someone demands that I play my characters in a certain way, often an INeffecient way, that is a dealbreaker. I can generally see the big picture very well and I know who is contributing, and what actions I should take to make the quest go smoothly, quickly and potlessly.
[/quote]
im not talking about forcing anyone to do anything im talking about synergy, a win win, if a caster has good cc then use it, have less mobs moving around and more controlled. thats a tactical stand point, less healing intensive, and more efficient. If you got it then use it, when in a raid i try to get one cc one nuker, that works nicely together. always try and get a tank to peal aggro off squishies who dont have hate reducing equipment/enhancements. what i demand is people play the role they tell me they are simply put.

Honestly...saying a melee can ONLY beat down CCed mobs, waiting for agro despite disco ball, ducking out of combat to drink cure mod pots, pulling 1 enemy at a time with ranged, no UMD investment, no SF pots, saying the healer will die if no disco ball...I think we just have very different playsyles, that's all. You sound like you are bringing more to the group than a lot of melee but leave a lot to be desired.

no what i said was melees beat on mobs that arent under cc effects. mobs under cc effects dont need to be handled till they make their save, mobs not under cc effects are running rampant. In no way did i say be forced to be a healbot/ccbot, ect, i said do your job you signed up for. a tank who says their a tank should be a tank, a nuker who has bad cc is a nuker shouldnt be wasting sp on trying to cc needlessly, a cc'er can be a nuker as long as they do their cc job, a healer can be combat based but if im told their a healer then i expect them to heal folks at the least, idc if they swing a sword, i have grouped up with many battle clerics who could heal well, but those who moonlight as a healer but are really dps then i get mad at those folks for not even giving me the common courtesy of letting me know. anytime im on my clonk i message group leader first stating "im not a healer" if i get accepted i then proceed to warn the party "im not a healer' thats common courtesy