Whilst your nerfing, nerf dots.

[Munkenmo]

If we see certain spells under-preforming or that are in need of help, we now have the ability to tweak them upwards as needed, in whatever incremental amounts work best to nudge them into place.

Sometimes, things are just too good to be true, and devalue other weapons and styles of play just by being around.

Ever since the introduction of damage over time spells (dots) casters have become better than melees at: self healing, trash clearing, boss dps.

Dev's you obviously don't seem to understand, but this game sucks for melee now, they're irrelevant. Bodies there to suck up some sp, whilst occasionally getting to deal with a casters left overs. It started when vorpal was changed to it's current implementation, whilst simultaneously allowing insta kill spells in epics.

The game dynamic shifted from a mass hold / disco ball beatdown, to sitting back letting casters kill trash, when melee came in to dps down bosses.

With the introduction of the following spells
Eladar's Electric Surge
Niac's Biting Cold
Divine Punishment

You then pushed casters further ahead, giving casters sustainable dps that is on par / surpassing melee dps output.

These spells have no save, are cheap and very high damage. They're over powered. They have been since they were introduced as a no save, cheap, stacking spell.

You now have a tool to help balance this, consider adding these 3 spells to the list of spells with a reduced bonus from spell power.

This is not the path I wanted to go down in terms of seeking balance, but given your recent nerfs, it's obvious you can't / wont buff melee to be more fun / viable. So rather than buff melee to help them reach casters, I ask you to please consider nerfing casters down to the level of melee.

[MRMechMan]

Melee got massive buffs this update.

Divine punishment DID get nerfed, genius.

So it comes down to the arcane DOTS. Eladars/Niacs are ONLY useful on bosses. Is it SUCH a bad thing that casters have a way to do moderate DPS compared to top teir melee? Those spells STILL cost sp, and while they are very efficient, elite epic bosses and trash have high enough hp that a sorc can't just nuke everything away.

You actually have to have gear/skill and quest knowledge to play a caster well. A melee? Well gear certainly helps but resource conservation? Yea, right.

A sorc going full r3t@rd will be huge dps, but can't sustain it for an entire encounter, let alone an entire quest. A melee, for the most part, has no thought of conserving resources-it is just swing swing swing and occasionally boost or rage.

Casters are more powerful than melee because of instakilling, self healing, AOE damage and the ability to do damage at range.

This topic has been beaten to death, and honstly U14 DID buff melees more than casters in general.

[Picus]

Hmm not sure this would be a good thing as...
A. Most casters don't want to go back to original epics wher eall the did was CC
B. Most people wouldn't want seeing their beloved chars nerfed
C. Yes, they should buff melees more, and with epic destinies I do believe they have received quite some nice buffs, especially to dps (thinking of the adrenaline fury of the wild)

[taurean430]

Melee got massive buffs this update.

Divine punishment DID get nerfed, genius.

So it comes down to the arcane DOTS. Eladars/Niacs are ONLY useful on bosses. Is it SUCH a bad thing that casters have a way to do moderate DPS compared to top teir melee? Those spells STILL cost sp, and while they are very efficient, elite epic bosses and trash have high enough hp that a sorc can't just nuke everything away.

You actually have to have gear/skill and quest knowledge to play a caster well. A melee? Well gear certainly helps but resource conservation? Yea, right.

A sorc going full r3t@rd will be huge dps, but can't sustain it for an entire encounter, let alone an entire quest. A melee, for the most part, has no thought of conserving resources-it is just swing swing swing and occasionally boost or rage.

Casters are more powerful than melee because of instakilling, self healing, AOE damage and the ability to do damage at range.

This topic has been beaten to death, and honstly U14 DID buff melees more than casters in general.

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to MRMechMan again.

Wish I could though...

[Munkenmo]

Melee got massive buffs this update.

Divine punishment DID get nerfed, genius.

So it comes down to the arcane DOTS. Eladars/Niacs are ONLY useful on bosses. Is it SUCH a bad thing that casters have a way to do moderate DPS compared to top teir melee? Those spells STILL cost sp, and while they are very efficient, elite epic bosses and trash have high enough hp that a sorc can't just nuke everything away.

You actually have to have gear/skill and quest knowledge to play a caster well. A melee? Well gear certainly helps but resource conservation? Yea, right.

A sorc going full r3t@rd will be huge dps, but can't sustain it for an entire encounter, let alone an entire quest. A melee, for the most part, has no thought of conserving resources-it is just swing swing swing and occasionally boost or rage.

Casters are more powerful than melee because of instakilling, self healing, AOE damage and the ability to do damage at range.

Where to start?

Casters got massive boosts too

Divine Punishment did not get nerfed, Genious.

I suspect the latter. I've seen no evidence that any divine offensive spells other than the one named in the original post of this thread (Summon Archon) gains reduced benefit from Spell Power. All my testing has shown they're all spot on for the 100% that we have them set to.

I think this is just a case of the one person who tried to test it actually used Summon Archon to do so, then the "light spells are getting half also" word just spread around, despite being inaccurate.

Get off your high horse casters don't generally take any more skill to play than melee. They however are much more forgiving if a mistake is made, and much more powerful in the current state of the game.

You're right though, casters are more powerful than melee, for just the reasons you listed, and also because in most quests at most difficulties, they can sustain that damage, self healing, insta killing, and single target dots.

In most quests, it trivializes the experience for melees, and something needs to give.

[Munkenmo]

Hmm not sure this would be a good thing as...
A. Most casters don't want to go back to original epics wher eall the did was CC
B. Most people wouldn't want seeing their beloved chars nerfed
C. Yes, they should buff melees more, and with epic destinies I do believe they have received quite some nice buffs, especially to dps (thinking of the adrenaline fury of the wild)

The last thing I want is to go back to A.

I know exactly what you mean about B, I hate seeing my toons get nerfed, but it's happened so many times now the devs have proven they don't care about nerfs if they think it will improve balance.

C, Like I said, this isn't my first choice to boost melee effectiveness, and I'll agree melee got some nice buffs with ED's however casters got huge boosts to dc's / spell pen / spell power too. The ED boosts virtually cancel each other out leaving the status quo the same as before.

[Cardoor]

Playing both melee and casters, I would give the offensive edge to casters, but it isn't that wide of a gap.

A DOT is just an easier way to cast and avoid damage vs. foes you can't stand toe to toe with. How often does a melee have to take a swing then hide behind a pillar?

[MRMechMan]

Where to start?

Casters got massive boosts too

Divine Punishment did not get nerfed, Genious.


Get off your high horse casters don't generally take any more skill to play than melee. They however are much more forgiving if a mistake is made, and much more powerful in the current state of the game.

You're right though, casters are more powerful than melee, for just the reasons you listed, and also because in most quests at most difficulties, they can sustain that damage, self healing, insta killing, and single target dots.

In most quests, it trivializes the experience for melees, and something needs to give.

Most quests at most difficulties? Aka heroic and epic normal and hard...whoopie, any build trivializes that content. Casters just trivialize it MORE because they have AOE damage and better self healing in general...not because of DOTs.

Divine punishment DID get nerfed and anyone who says otherwise doesn't actually play a divine. Guessing that is you...

PRR/AC is mainly a melee thing due to arcane spell failure. Tanks now actually DO have more damage mitigation than the caster shieldblocking and torcing.

Torcing in epic elites isn't really possible-if you want unlimited sp you need to buy store pots or use the ones you found.

Hell, the raidboss drains SP.

Sure, everyone got buffed this update except for a few bugs like ranged attacks and WF healers friend, and those who couldn't really slot a spellpower item. And those without access to EDs.

Melees ABSOLUTELY got buffed more than casters. If you don't think that then you aren't playing your melee right in the new content, nor using EDs to their potential.

A well played melee is better than a poorly played melee, but not by much.

A well played casters is better than a poorly played caster, exponentially so.

Casters DO require more skill to play to their potential. Melee require SOME, but nowhere near as much to be fairly effective. I have fun when I play my melees, but in terms of clicking and movement...it is nowhere near as involved as playing a caster-with the exception of monks.


Again, why is it such a horrible thing that casters have a source of steady, efficient single target damage that is (much) lower than top-teir melee dps and USES resources?

[MsEricka]

Sorry Mo, I disagree with you on this one.

In my opinion you have it backwards, it's melee that should be nerfed and let me explain.

A caster can do a ton of damage, but is limited in that damage by their spell point pool so it's typically either all in for one fight, or spread out the damage between shrines.

Melee can keep up their DPS constantly, for hours on end without the need for shrines and expensive (both platinum and real cash) SP potions.

The fact that barbarians can hit for thousands of damage is acceptable? I don't think so. That's the definition of OP.

As for difficulty of playing, a caster requires much more than most melee. I have 16 tool bars on my Wizard for all my spells, scrolls, potions, clickies etc. I'm pretty sure _most_ melee don't have any more than half of that. I know one fighter who is quite happy to only use ONE toolbar, I'm not saying that's right or it's good, but there's no way a caster could get away with that.

Yes casters can tank. And they can do damage. And some can self heal. I think your experience is skewed by playing with the crowd that you play with. Try partying with some 200HP level 20 pug wizards in the Shroud, or 240HP clerics. The crowd you're playing with is more experienced and more geared than average and they have the ability to do things that many players can't imagine.

[Pape_27]

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to MRMechMan again.

Wish I could though...

Did it for you.

_

[xveganrox]

Sorry Mo, I disagree with you on this one.

In my opinion you have it backwards, it's melee that should be nerfed and let me explain.

A caster can do a ton of damage, but is limited in that damage by their spell point pool so it's typically either all in for one fight, or spread out the damage between shrines.

Melee can keep up their DPS constantly, for hours on end without the need for shrines and expensive (both platinum and real cash) SP potions.

The fact that barbarians can hit for thousands of damage is acceptable? I don't think so. That's the definition of OP.

As for difficulty of playing, a caster requires much more than most melee. I have 16 tool bars on my Wizard for all my spells, scrolls, potions, clickies etc. I'm pretty sure _most_ melee don't have any more than half of that. I know one fighter who is quite happy to only use ONE toolbar, I'm not saying that's right or it's good, but there's no way a caster could get away with that.

Yes casters can tank. And they can do damage. And some can self heal. I think your experience is skewed by playing with the crowd that you play with. Try partying with some 200HP level 20 pug wizards in the Shroud, or 240HP clerics. The crowd you're playing with is more experienced and more geared than average and they have the ability to do things that many players can't imagine.

Seriously? I've got 18 full tool bars on my melee, for all my feats, prestige abilities, ED stuff, potions, wands, scrolls, clickies, action boosts, etc, and if I really want to do maximum DPS I need to juggle between keeping ABs on cooldown, managing adrenaline/cleave/momentum swing, using Madstone Boots/Titan's Gloves if necessary [raids], and self-healing if necessary [not raids].

I can walk into Vale on my 16 *human* sorcerer and trounce everything - first life, sora kell, and very little other gear of note. A conc ops item, a torc, and a shield do more for a sorcerer than hours and hours worth of raid gear in every slot does for a melee. Don't get me wrong, MotU has changed this a lot by requiring you to equip items instead of relying on clickies, but it still holds true to a large degree.

Melees don't need more nerfs. They got a huge one today that massively reduced their ability to clear trash at all but the higher difficulties (EE and some EH). As for barbarians hitting for thousands of damage - they're barbarians! They're *the* stereotypical DPS class, and they're only doing that much damage while under good circumstances with proper support from the rest of the party (or in really easy content). We're talking about the top .01% of barbarians being able to solo any epic elites, and even then only with a veritable swarm of clickies and probably UMD gear for FoM/DW/etc. On the other hand, most adequately geared casters can solo several EEs without too much difficulty (though more than they had with old epics - which is a good thing).

Casters don't need more nerfs either. I think DoTs probably should have allowed saves OR SR at their conception - but they didn't and never have, and we have a game filled with casters built to take advantage of that. Severely crushing 20%+ of caster builds doesn't really seem to be the answer.

[V_mad_jester_V]

Sorry Mo, I disagree with you on this one.

In my opinion you have it backwards, it's melee that should be nerfed and let me explain.

A caster can do a ton of damage, but is limited in that damage by their spell point pool so it's typically either all in for one fight, or spread out the damage between shrines.

Melee can keep up their DPS constantly, for hours on end without the need for shrines and expensive (both platinum and real cash) SP potions.

The fact that barbarians can hit for thousands of damage is acceptable? I don't think so. That's the definition of OP.
.

I got killed by a caster who consistently did 1.5k+ dmg to anyone who stepped against him in pvp...so yeah casters did get a lil broke. Got some friends who also play casters only, and they brag how they can now out dps any class in game each of em doing bout 1k dmg depending on the spell. Some spells are broke. As a melee, in pvp, going against a caster, im dead before i can even get close to them cuz most dots kill me in like 2-4 ticks each dealing 300+ dmg...

I

[Pape_27]

I got killed by a caster who consistently did 1.5k+ dmg to anyone who stepped against him in pvp...so yeah casters did get a lil broke. Got some friends who also play casters only, and they brag how they can now out dps any class in game each of em doing bout 1k dmg depending on the spell. Some spells are broke. As a melee, in pvp, going against a caster, im dead before i can even get close to them cuz most dots kill me in like 2-4 ticks each dealing 300+ dmg...

I

Oh please. The spells are based on PvE where mobs have thousands of hp and bosses hundreds of thousands of HP not for PvP. The idea that dots have to be nerfed because you get creamed in the pit is ridiculous.

[Vulgari]

Casters don't need more nerfs either. I think DoTs probably should have allowed saves OR SR at their conception - but they didn't and never have, and we have a game filled with casters built to take advantage of that. Severely crushing 20%+ of caster builds doesn't really seem to be the answer.

The devs have a history of changing things that invalidated or "crushed" items/builds so really no "answer" would seem to be out of the question.

[V_mad_jester_V]

Oh please. The spells are based on PvE where mobs have thousands of hp and bosses hundreds of thousands of HP not for PvP. The idea that dots have to be nerfed because you get creamed in the pit is ridiculous.

im just simply correcting this guy, he's mentioning a barb can do 1k + dmg, but im pointing out that so can a caster. The fact that i get creamed is a different topic on how pvp is utterly and completely unbalanced, and any which way the wind blows it will always be unbalanced, and has no real point other than to bs around. I prefer real pvp like in WoW, Guild wars, City of heroes/villians, ect. the pvp here just blows harder than a french ***** given 1mil

[V_mad_jester_V]

oh and not to mention, that last poster was right, most melees cant solo alot of quest unlike many casters, and worry about sp? ummm...isnt there something known as scrolls? If I remember right scrolls only cost plat, and are free to cast after finding/buying them, and EVERY chest i loot has alot of useful scrolls. well not useful for me but you get the idea

[CodyGenX]

I'm sorry once you've got mana conservation down casters are /sleep. Once you've got 2-3 melees running around collecting SP pots to feed to your casters you'll never have a issue again. Hell it's very rare that I even drink one. Sitting on like 450+ majors atm?

Though I wouldn't ever support a nerf (I've got a FvS and 2 sorcs ). It's much harder to play an "effective" melee in high level content than it is a caster. A well played melee is VERY noticeable. I've got to worry about things on my monk like:

1)Hope I don't fail this concentration check on this heal scroll while Im running for my life because the FvS ran in BB'd and got his ass turned inside out. Oh **** did I forget his stone? Lemme go grab that and raise him.

2)Hope this last second stun lands so this EE mob doesn't crush my face in.

3)Hope me switching to earth stance can pull agro off this ****** mode fleshy sorc stacking DoT's before letting melee establish agro. While he's kiting it all over the place .

4)**** Lemme make sure my fort didn't drop to 0 because I switched to my healing amp stick so I could top off after that last fight. General in BoB(EE) really hurts when he crits BTW.


Just because you guys play with crappy melees doesn't mean all of us suck. There's been MANY times where someone was like... Did that ranger just do that? Or. We should have just piked at the start and let the Monk solo this.

[Blank_Zero]

Sorry Mo, I disagree with you on this one.

In my opinion you have it backwards, it's melee that should be nerfed and let me explain.

A caster can do a ton of damage, but is limited in that damage by their spell point pool so it's typically either all in for one fight, or spread out the damage between shrines.

Melee can keep up their DPS constantly, for hours on end without the need for shrines and expensive (both platinum and real cash) SP potions.

The fact that barbarians can hit for thousands of damage is acceptable? I don't think so. That's the definition of OP.

As for difficulty of playing, a caster requires much more than most melee. I have 16 tool bars on my Wizard for all my spells, scrolls, potions, clickies etc. I'm pretty sure _most_ melee don't have any more than half of that. I know one fighter who is quite happy to only use ONE toolbar, I'm not saying that's right or it's good, but there's no way a caster could get away with that.

Yes casters can tank. And they can do damage. And some can self heal. I think your experience is skewed by playing with the crowd that you play with. Try partying with some 200HP level 20 pug wizards in the Shroud, or 240HP clerics. The crowd you're playing with is more experienced and more geared than average and they have the ability to do things that many players can't imagine.

What game are you playing that Casters are less powerful than melee?

There are so many shrines in each quest it's ridiculous.

And I have exactly 11 hotbars up on my main. That's the least amount on any toon, especially considering my monk.

[Ancient]

Melees don't need more nerfs. They got a huge one today that massively reduced their ability to clear trash at all but the higher difficulties (EE and some EH).

My FVS would have liked to offer some sympathy, but she's fresh out after they nerfed both of her SLA's with this patch. That is the danger with cheering on the nerf bat... you never know which way it will swing next.

[Ancient]

3)Hope me switching to earth stance can pull agro off this ****** mode fleshy sorc stacking DoT's before letting melee establish agro. While he's kiting it all over the place .

Is that a double stack or a triple stack? And after they wait that long to establish agro... why is the mob still alive?