Nightmare Items

[~Nick_C76]

Ima ask you once nicely, to please refrain from quoting stuff I post and replying with insults.

ROFL!!! Funny you should say that when it's precisley how you first replied to my post.

As for "not having a respectful tenure as a DM" (lolwut?)

No wonder you do not understand. Your mad reading skillz have not improved at all today, because I said "successful", not "respectful". But, if you want respect (as your slip seems to indicate), I'd suggest you learn to give it first.

- I battle tested 4 different editions of D&D before they went live. Ive also REFed for some of the designers back in the day in CONs as well as recreational games. Those level of cats asking me to return repeatedly doesnt indicate any lack of skill or understanding of the game, nor does it indicate any poor tenure. You are way out of line on this. If you attempted to sit a table in any kind of professional environment and waged this kind of argument completely laden with insults and implications of not reading etc simply due to disagreement, theyd ask you to leave. Ive seen it happen twice and it was hilarious both times.

Wow. It's easy to claim such things, especially when there's no proof involved. Even if true, it still doesn't alter the fact that you didn't HAVE to respond at all to my post if you didn't care to. But, you did in exactly the same fashion as you complain about in my response. Very sad. Nevertheless, your lack of reading comprehension is NOT an implication; it is well documented in this thread.

Also: disagreement with you =/= invalid argument. (this kind of banter is in part what we refer to as "oberoni").

No, but being incorrect is - your use of obscure words from dictionary.com notwithstanding. Where I come from, what you just said is equated with a substance produced by male bovines. It smells bad & we avoid stepping in it.

Looking at the issue objectively we can clearly see nightmare was unbalanced when it procced on crit. Look at what other players have to do for builds, grind time, and feat investments in order to get the same level of power, compared to simply having to equip one weapon, and its clear for all who care to be abjective that I am correct on this issue. Most dont want to wage the objective stance however. They want to banter that they farmed mindsunder on casual which took hellish amounts of time. They want to banter that the game is no longer fun because the item was adjusted - then log right back into the game and keep playing afterward. How ironic.

Phew. Good thing I'm not one of those. Also Ironic? People who talk a lot of smack, then refuse to put their character names in their sig so we can make informed choicess when deciding who we'd like to run with.

Cheers!

[zwiebelring]

Nightmare does not matter on ee. It trivialized enorm to ehard and even there it had its limits. Obviously the dev.s want trash to be more dangerous. Well, as it can be seen on most reactions here on the forum (3 threads about this topic), players tend to see it otherwise.

It destroyed the game as soon as it was handed out on random loot tables. I am still convinced, that deleting Nightmare from random loot and keeping Terror as it has been (or give the old Nightmare on Terror upgrade, whatever) was the best solution.

Greatswords lack so much of dps if not eSoS (which is actually a greataxe but applicable to greatsword enhancements) that this only alternative was a blessing as trash beater and nothing like *too good to be true*. With the current options on sp regaining the limitted ressource argument for arcane casters using instant kills is not viable at any time for me.

[noinfo]

While not a big terror user, I have 2 or 3 of them floating around on varous toons, it was one of the few effects that actually benefited having it on a extended crit range weapon. Most things including dps seem favour extended multipliers over extended crit range. Stat damage now being basically non leathal (con at least) is an example, body feeder is probably one of the few and its a defensive buff.

If Nightmare is such a problem with the full crit range (with IC) then make it only the base crit range (without IC).

[Stillwaters]

Being able to offer facts and change peoples opinions are two completely different things. <- omg this is a laugh coming from YOU

One balancing factor here is saves. People have tried to make the argument that mobs always saved on a 2. If this was the case, there wouldnt be anywhere near as much nerd rage over the nerf because the weapons would already have been worthless. Each proc would have had a 1 in 400 chance of killing a mob. This is far from the actual result we were observing objectively in gameplay.

People were actually trying to argue that terror only had a 20% chance to proc a 1 in 400 chance to kill a mob.

oh wait...We were seeing it happen alot more than that in epic hard runs. This tells us that the mobs were not simply saving on a 2 for both saves. Even after the nerf, we STILL see it much more than 1 in every 2k swings, which is what some were saying the pre nerf probability was - in order to argue in favor of keeping their easy button of course. Mobs were not making both saves on a 2. We can clearly see this.

Chai,
I WAS trying to leave this thread be seeing as it was getting into a massive argument between you and me but you STILL have the audacity to spout misinformation with no numbers backing you up!

The mobs in epic missions saved most of the time when Nightmare was procing on crit (50%crit in ideal cases) it STILL took many strikes before a mob died to PK (though you might get lucky occasionally and cleave sweep a bunch of them)

I agreed that it was proccing too often(due to F_O_S putting it on all weps with no real brain work beforehand).

However, you come in this thread shooting your mouth off at how OP it was, yet have yet to respond to my question on what you think the mobs WILL and FORT saves are in epic MISSIONS?

SAVE ON 20
IF the saves were only 16s in BOTH (and they are higher in lvl 18+ content, i can ASSURE YOU),
the proc rate is 1/20 of 19/20 of 19/20 times (4.5125%) <- (22 strikes = dead)
not terrible but mobs this low likely have <1000hp so vorpal wins (20 strikes = dead)
Stars aligned with old 50% crit rate the proc was 1/2 of 19/20 of 19/20 (45.125%) just over 2 strikes = dead (totally OP)

SAVE 1/2 THE TIME
To be fair lets assume that the mobs saves are 25 in each,
that proc rate is 1/20 of 10/20 of 10/20 (1.25%) <- which is cruddy! and weaker than almost all weaponry (80 strikes = dead)
using the old stars aligned 50%crit, 10/20 of 10/20 of 10/20 (12.5%) <- which is a little OP (8 strikes = dead)

FAIL SAVE ON 1
If the mobs saves were 34s in both (close to the truth on epic elite) you would have 1/20 of 1/20 of 1/20 (0.0125%) <- 8000 strikes = dead
again using old 50%crit the proc is 10/20 of 1/20 of 1/20 (0.125%) <-800 strikes = dead

I ask you again Chai:
How many HP do you ASSUME that the mobs have?
What do you ASSUME their WILL and FORT saves are?
Will you ever actually use real info and MATH to support your banter?

@Feather_Of_Sun giving all nightmare weapons a proc of 15-20% regardless of threat/crit/vorpal (similar to litII strike style) would NOT be OP and retains value of these weapons when mob saves are ~+25 (Zones, norm/hard epics with debuffing)

[SilkofDrasnia]

EE pugs? Cute. Most people are doing those in guild/channel runs. Ironic? Nope. Its been happening this way for years now regarding forming high end groups for the most difficult content this game has to offer.

No really lol, it's the claim of the lame with no numbers to fall back on, the "its only run in channels" song. The High end groups excuse a farce, channels notwithstanding

My reply that theres a lack of loot incentive to run EE content was to a post you made saying the "real game" is in EE. Balancing the entire game arond what 2-5% of the upper tier players are doing is not a good idea. If you were experiencing this "real game" like you keep claiming to be, then you would be in multiple channels and or running in a solid guild, as well as have a complete understanding of why people dont PUG EE too often, rather than trying to act like youre calling me out on a very well known years old fact. This is not just the case with EE, its been the case with all endgame content over the years.

Spin it how you will your arguments are all over the place depending on what suits you for the day. As for people don't pug EE what a load of BS, on khyber we use to have many EE pugs, granted many are selective of whom they let in, so in that case YOU may have to rely on channels. Heh the" you have to go to channels" excuse is the funniest thing i've ever heard.

Again you keep swinging on one side of the fence to the other like a drunken sailor. What only 2-5% of the "upper tier" players run EE you say but then according to you so much is "easy button" and so peeps will leave the game? You keep contradicting yourself! Where are you numbers? .



You wont find them in the LFM panel because there's little to no desire to PUG EE. The solid end game groups are not made in the LFM panel. They are made in the guild panel, and reinforced in the private channels on each server.

Heh ofc i have a guild and i even lead 2 raids and per weekend so what ? "Private channels" is not were you go looking to see how the game is doing. Heh you say, "Balancing the entire game arond what 2-5% of the upper tier players are doing is not a good idea" Yet you use what the "2-5%" are doing as part of your arguments LOL

Heh you use the argument that elite needs more loot incentive to be run more yet then go ahead and say peeps will leave the game because it's too easy. Duh one argument doesn't work with the other.

Tell you what, when i look at your join date and post count i can't help but think that "the real game" for you is in the forums and that makes me think your a better forum warrior than a in game one cause if you played as much as you spouted nonsense in these forums you wouldn't think terror was OP lol. IMHO most of your posts are arrogant and condescending towards others even when i think you trying to be helpful.

[Chai]

Heh ofc i have a guild and i even lead 2 raids and per weekend so what ? "Private channels" is not were you go looking to see how the game is doing. Heh you say, "Balancing the entire game arond what 2-5% of the upper tier players are doing is not a good idea" Yet you use what the "2-5%" are doing as part of your arguments LOL

Heh you use the argument that elite needs more loot incentive to be run more yet then go ahead and say peeps will leave the game because it's too easy. Duh one argument doesn't work with the other.

Tell you what, when i look at your join date and post count i can't help but think that "the real game" for you is in the forums and that makes me think your a better forum warrior than a in game one cause if you played as much as you spouted nonsense in these forums you wouldn't think terror was OP lol.

IMHO most of your posts are arrogant and condescending towards others even when i think you trying to be helpful.

I posted where 2-5% of the players are making their groups, which is something that your previous post was not taking into consideration when you tried to talk about EE pugs being in a sad state somehow equating to evidence of people not playing them. I gladly pointed out that people not PUGing them =/= people not playing them. None of my argument regarding why nightmare needed to be toned down hinges on that, at all.

Your post here is a good indicator of why I cant take you seriously. Every post you make after quoting me is filled with ad hominem and brings nothing to the discussion other than personal attacks. I completely debunked the whole "mobs only fail the save on a 1" statement that was brought up that you guys are basing your claims on. But instead of attacking the argument, you completely glossed over it while attempting to attack myself, which is against the rules. Please refrain from quoting me and replying with personal attacks. In fact, please refrain from quoting me at all. Theres quite a bit of history of you quoting myself and a few others in a pattern based fashion and posting nothing but well rehearsed personal insults.

[Chai]

Chai,
I WAS trying to leave this thread be seeing as it was getting into a massive argument between you and me but you STILL have the audacity to spout misinformation with no numbers backing you up!

The mobs in epic missions saved most of the time when Nightmare was procing on crit (50%crit in ideal cases) it STILL took many strikes before a mob died to PK (though you might get lucky occasionally and cleave sweep a bunch of them)

I agreed that it was proccing too often(due to F_O_S putting it on all weps with no real brain work beforehand).

However, you come in this thread shooting your mouth off at how OP it was, yet have yet to respond to my question on what you think the mobs WILL and FORT saves are in epic MISSIONS?

SAVE ON 20
IF the saves were only 16s in BOTH (and they are higher in lvl 18+ content, i can ASSURE YOU),
the proc rate is 1/20 of 19/20 of 19/20 times (4.5125%) <- (22 strikes = dead)
not terrible but mobs this low likely have <1000hp so vorpal wins (20 strikes = dead)
Stars aligned with old 50% crit rate the proc was 1/2 of 19/20 of 19/20 (45.125%) just over 2 strikes = dead (totally OP)

SAVE 1/2 THE TIME
To be fair lets assume that the mobs saves are 25 in each,
that proc rate is 1/20 of 10/20 of 10/20 (1.25%) <- which is cruddy! and weaker than almost all weaponry (80 strikes = dead)
using the old stars aligned 50%crit, 10/20 of 10/20 of 10/20 (12.5%) <- which is a little OP (8 strikes = dead)

FAIL SAVE ON 1
If the mobs saves were 34s in both (close to the truth on epic elite) you would have 1/20 of 1/20 of 1/20 (0.0125%) <- 8000 strikes = dead
again using old 50%crit the proc is 10/20 of 1/20 of 1/20 (0.125%) <-800 strikes = dead

I ask you again Chai:
How many HP do you ASSUME that the mobs have?
What do you ASSUME their WILL and FORT saves are?
Will you ever actually use real info and MATH to support your banter?

@Feather_Of_Sun giving all nightmare weapons a proc of 15-20% regardless of threat/crit/vorpal (similar to litII strike style) would NOT be OP and retains value of these weapons when mob saves are ~+25 (Zones, norm/hard epics with debuffing)

And you guys were trying to tell me I am the one spouting misinformation? Where are you getting this 50% crit from? Terror crit 20% of the time w/improved crit. Even a falchion crits 30% of the time w/ improved crit. Are you trying to make a case that people were intentionally trying to get MORE crit threat as a build decision for these weapons, and THEN ALSO trying to say that the weapon was not OP? Hilarious.

I posted the real info and math on terror w/ improved crit, then asked why people are calling a 1 in 2k swings proc "fun". You are basically glossing over all the info I post and then posting personal insults, when my info is absolutely correct. The "only fails a save on a 1" statement has been completely debunked. If it only worked once in 2k swings, no one would use it even on an on crit proc. If it was that bad in the first place, no one would care about it getting nerfed. The sheer amount of complaints about the nerf do not support your stance on this here, because it is clear for those who used the weapons for any length of time that they worked alot more than that.

[Ravoc-DDO]

The way DDO works, instakill effects will never really get balanced properly. Even more so when you try to pair it with casterlike effects. It's too black & white.

I'd rather see nightmares, vorpal, manslayer, banishing, smiting, disrupting, etc.. removed and overall DPS significantly boosted for all melee classes.

[LightBear]

... A good explanation of what actually is going on...

How many HP do you ASSUME that the mobs have?
What do you ASSUME their WILL and FORT saves are?
Will you ever actually use real info and MATH to support your banter?

Some good questions you have there.

Once answered it will show that the real problem isn't nightmare by it self but a combination of to much HP and/or to low saves on the mobs.
However, we should take into consideration the average damage per swing a mediocre melee can do and set that off against the proc and save-fail of nightmare.

[Ancient]

Looking at the issue objectively we can clearly see nightmare was unbalanced when it procced on crit. Look at what other players have to do for builds, grind time, and feat investments in order to get the same level of power, compared to simply having to equip one weapon, and its clear for all who care to be abjective that I am correct on this issue.

And if we apply this same standard to EiN... You can't use different standards for the stuff you like.

The math of criticals favored high multiplier over high crit range. Here we finally had a mechanic which favored the high crit range and it was nerfed away. If the saves were too high, adjust that. I have already suggested keeping the high save for a 20 and lower saves for any crit as a middle ground.

The nerf to 20 only was far too hard a hit for the weapon to be competitive with other options.

[Chai]

And if we apply this same standard to EiN... You can't use different standards for the stuff you like.

An equippable weapon has nothing in common with a destiny epic moment ability which has to be built into the toon itself and supported with stats and ability to prep it quickly. I also support adjusting that ability, but I dont support the hyperbole the forumites bring to the table - the same hyperbole that they brought to the table when they wanted wail nerfed. The whole argument that someone else has something better than I have therefore it needs to be nerfed is a flawed argument. This cant be applied to nightmare, because it could be acquired with ease by anyone who wanted it.

The math of criticals favored high multiplier over high crit range. Here we finally had a mechanic which favored the high crit range and it was nerfed away. If the saves were too high, adjust that. I have already suggested keeping the high save for a 20 and lower saves for any crit as a middle ground.

The nerf to 20 only was far too hard a hit for the weapon to be competitive with other options.

Nightmare is still a decent prefix on a weapon that has a good suffix. The prefix no longer carries the weapon alone however as a decent choice. People vendor +5 holy weapon with no suffix in DDO. They keep +5 holy of divine light. Same with nightmare now. +5 nightmare gets vendored. +5 nightmare of divine light gets saved and used, or put on the AH.

[Galvin_Omon]

Hey Devs,

Thanks for nothing, I'm glad we poured out hearts out about requesting changing back Terror to its original status. I love the fact that no one from this organization has commented on this @ss-o-9 idea of changing the powers on this weapon. This and the stupid changes made to Warforges has really Pi55ed me off. Again the purpose of this game is to have fun, not see how much you can upset paying customers.


Thanks, would it have been really that hard to throw us a little love, I guess not.

[Chefd261]

I still don't know why a dev has not commented in here yet would be nice though.

[ka0t1c1sm]

Only skimmed through the thread so not sure if this was suggested, but how about reverting Terror and the Tharaak Wraps (or any future NAMED weapons) to the old version of Nightmare, and only have random lootgen use the updated (nerfed) Nightmare effect?

Call it Lesser Nightmare or Moderately Bad Dream or something.

[Ziindarax]

@Stillwaters

I will explain that bit about the criticals to you without trolling - It is true that 18-20 x2-multiplier weapons would proc a critical hit more often than a greataxe, however the greataxe is mightier. Why? Because any build that would want to use the critical hit porperties of Dreadnaught to it's fullest would have taken overwhelming critical - + x1 to the multiplier on rolls of natural 19-20. Tier 5 and six abilities add +2x to the multiplier.

Ignoring the Cleave feats and Frenzied cleave, an 18 Barb/fighter 2 would have an impressive multiplier of x6 with a great axe because of their low threat range ( Base is x3 - Overwhelming adds 1 so that makes it x4, Tier 5 dreadnaught makes it x5 as it is +1 multiplier to all weapons with a roll of 19-20. Finally, Headman's lop stacks making it x6). It's x7 if you have rage active. It's all x6 at best with greatswords. Let's say you hit for an average of 80 damage with an ESoS (Epic Sword of Shadows), and an EAG (Epic Antique Greataxe - side note - I find it annoying when some people abbreviate the names of items as though thinking everyone automatically knows what it means [E.G. ERoEE - what does that mean?]). The ESoS has the multiplier of the Greataxe, and the threat of a greatsword. The ESOS will, in terms of raw critical damage, lose out to the Epic Antique Greataxe because the EAG (with it's force burst damage mind you) will hit far, far harder.

Granted a Greatsword COULD get more critical hits with all these buffs active (it certainly has a higher frequency of criticals), but here's the problem - most nearly EVERY melee (who hasn't gimped their characters, and took advice/learned from wiki) takes improved critical so as to increase their DPS. On a Greatsword, that means you're critting anywhere between a roll of 17 to a roll of 20. The Muliplier buffs do NOT work for a critical that happens on less than a roll of 19, so the Greataxe has a greater chance per critical to enjoy the increased multiplier gains because with improved critical, axes crit on rolls of 19-20.

How much damage was I able to do with an Epic Elemental Greataxe of Fire (Base btw, never got it upgraded to +6 bonus)? Without over-whelming critical, I often landed a critical of 700 with the dreadnaught 's critical multiplier taken on a cleave. Without cleave, I saw a base critical of ~450-500. A specialized build could easily achieve more than this with a greataxe. >.>

As for nightmare weapons, I've never used, nor needed to use, nightmare weapons in any quest. I have a nightmare guard on my Epic Mabar cloak, and the insta-death portion procs maybe once or twice out of hundreds of strikes against me - most the time, only the force damage procs. That being said, Nightmare did not need a nerf, not when insta-kills can be utilized to great effect by arcanes, and artificers.

[KristovK]

Stillwaters, you bring up a good question..

What ARE the Will and Fort saves of mobs in Epic quests?

Personal experience with multiple casters in Epics have given me a very good idea of what those saves are due to how often my various spells 'stick'.

My PM's 32 Enchant DCs were low but usable in Epics pre-U14, my Air Savant's 31 Necro DCs were low, not really worth using without tossing some Energy Drains out first, same with the Enchants of only 31 as well. There were of course mobs who's Will saves were higher and they definately required Energy Drains before those spell would stick at higher then a 25% rate, and the same for their Fort saves concerning my Air Savant, while my PM never had any issues with a 40 Necro pre-U14.

POST-U14...well..still seeing the same general trend on anything but Epic Elite, but that also varies by the quest/mob types as well, SAME as it did pre-U14. I AM seeing much lower Fort and Will saves in the FR content, but those mobs also tend to have MUCH higher SR then anything pre-U14, which does tend to offset the lower saves and makes anyone without a lot of Spell Pen unhappy(like my Air Savant). My PM only fails Spell Pen checks against bosses with a roll of 1 in the FR content, and that was my lvl 9 spells which I have nothing to boost Spell Pen with except my feats/enhancements(and yes I have them all including Epic Spell Pen), since my highest spell pen item is only +2 for 8th and lower, but I can accept a fail on a roll of 1 on EE bosses

The 'old' Epic content..looks about the same with lower saves on eNormal and higher on eElite and much less SR all around.

Now Stillwaters, which of your casters have you been using the Epic content and what are YOUR results with what DCs?

Give us NUMBERS from actual gameplay, don't give us what you THINK their saves might be based on using a weapon that has a multiple save with 2 different DC checks, and don't tell us what you THINK they might have been prior to U14, tell us what they WERE(hint-those numbers CAN be found in the forums, we(the players-ESPECIALLY MR COW!) documented saves of the various epic mobs multiple times over the past few years as Turbine changed how epic worked and I KNOW you can read other people's posts and use that information, your own siglinks show that clearly) and tell us what they are NOW and on what setting, eNormal/eHard/eElite.

And..in the end...the simple fact that you and others are screaming quite loudly about the 'NERF' tell us all exactly how often mobs failed their saves against the Nightmare's PK. If it hadn't been so obviously OP, you wouldn't be complaining because the saves HAVE NOT BEEN CHANGED, only when the effect procs, you wouldn't be noticing THAT much of a difference if the mob saves were that high no matter HOW often you got the effect to proc if they ONLY failed on a 1 or 2...or did you neglect to notice that with all the math you've been spouting?

[Stillwaters]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chai
And youre calculating this for every swing? Momentum swing on every attack? Nerp :/

Momentum swing is reset 50% by a cleave style attack, (3 swing animation), with cleave and great cleave on avg reset it (2 attacks) so not EVERY swing, but the MAJORITY of them.
It actually worked out to 44% crit rate, but i used it to show effect in stars aligned situation, stars aligned you COULD have momentum swing ready every time you were ready to attack a mob (just reset it in between uses).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chai
Multipliers are more valuable than threat for optimizing crit DPS. People dont optimize for the second best option in this game. Going for more threat and passing up more multipliers to do so woud only be to optimize for on crit effects - nightmare was one of those for a bit. Most of them have already been nerfed long ago and arent worth optimizing for. There was a time when banishing/puncturing/smiting etc were worth optimizing for. Those days are over.


This is what i mean by misinformation Chai, avg damage+threat+multiplier need to be factored.
Assume 2 weapons with same avg damage, and same multiply-able damage (eg STR).
Explain to me how 18-20x2 is not BETTER than 20x3 outside of kensai (where they break even but x3 loses if its a burst/on crit wep). In fact the only time in this eg the x3 wep pulls ahead is on momentum swing(which is raising threat not multiplier).

So explain it to me in math.

EDIT: as a poster (now above) put high crit multiplier weps CAN win out, but even then the "whole package" needs to be considered



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chai
Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. The devs also datamine this stuff out before they make these decisions.

Forgive me if i do not believe you..
Where is your proof?
opinions are just drivel without some proof.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chai
Mobs have different weak saves. Ogres for instance have stronger fort and weak will saves. All they have to do is roll low on a fort save in most cases for PK to land. Most mobs dont have 2 strong saves between fort and will. You keep calculating for the same save value for both saves, which is not realistic. With a mid 30s stun DC on my bard I can stun most caster mobs, because its a fort save which is what they are weak to. It might have a higher will save, but its fort save get beat alot.

Again you show your strength in argument but weakness at math Chai:
While it is true that mob saves are rarely equal, the COMBINATION of them is what matters on a dual save.
FORT-10%fail WILL-80%fail = 8% overall fail,
FORT-80%fail WILL-10%fail = 8% overall fail,
FORT-40%fail WILL-20%fail = 8% overall fail,
FORT-20%fail, WILL-40%fail = also 8% overall fail.
In either the case of high FORT weak WILL (ogre) or low FORT high WILL (caster) you still need to pass BOTH checks to proc a PK. Rather than show 400 different combinations i showed the 2 ends of the scale and the center.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chai
Then after this accusing me of misinformation you go and post this stuff about momentum swing bonuses on every swing, then respond to my posts with ad hominem attacks. This is a major issue on these forums, and something I plan on addressing within replies to my posts.

If you dont want your points torn down all the time, build stronger ones, and reinforce them with facts Chai. You are good at argument, but your points lack math and research.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chai
If it was as bad as you claim it was, why are you complaining about it being nerfed then? Because its pretty clear to the people with REAL DATA ON THE ISSUE (people with datamining capability, not you or I) that it wasnt as bad as you claim it was. The nightmare nerf was a correct decision two fold. 1. It was OP and 2. They nailed it early enough where people werent building their entire toons around it ala WoP.

Pre-nerf Nightmare was useless in epic elite, on epic hard it was useful only after major debuffing mobs, and worked alright->well in epic normal or zones. The nerf has made it useless in all these cases.
Only massive crit threat was OP with nightmare, not the effect itself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chai
Ive already showed you how incorrect the whole "once in 2k swings" assumtion was, which would be the case when mobs all save ona 2. Even a "one in 800 swings" proc which you also outlined, would not be accepted as a good effect by the optimizers. It was CLEARLY going off alot more than that.

Not in equal level missions (21+ epic elites) it wasnt, those numbers are close to the truth
I also never said it was 1 in 2k swings when the mob was saving on a 2?? where did you get that from
1/20 (fail Fort) of 1/20 (fail WILL) with a 1/20 proc (vorpal) = 1 in 8000 swings not 1 in 2000



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chai
On top of that, something people are NOT accounting for, it was bypassing SR, which is the best spell and spell effect defense of the trash mobs we fight in the current end game quests. Casters have to OPTIMIZE their toon through grinding 6 lives in order to beat that SR, then have an OPPORTUNITY COST associated with each cast, while first life bards, rangers, and paladins just equip terror - a no opportunity cost weapon. Somehow peopel are concluding this is balanced?

Casters could (and DO) use SR bypassing spells Chai, they are not all 1 trick ponies with no clue how to play to their strengths.
You go on about how casting spells has an opportunity cost as if its 1st day of launch and we dont have a plethora of SP pots, Torcs, greensteel con-op, yugo sp regen pots, and new sp regen pots let alone SSinger Bards, or plain old cheaper spells, SLAs and sp cost reducing items.

I dont even understand your argument here, that a MELEE wep can kill high SR mobs that are (in YOUR claim) the only defense against a strong caster, So the MELEE weapon should get nerfed??!??? Does that mean against LOW SR mobs casters should be nerfed so melee and casters are equal against them too??

Please, if you doubt, go do some runs and take score (datamine w/e) of the Nightmare procs in epics and count how many actual attacks happened vs how many procs of PK, you might just be able to add some valuable info to this thread.

[Stillwaters]

And..in the end...the simple fact that you and others are screaming quite loudly about the 'NERF' tell us all exactly how often mobs failed their saves against the Nightmare's PK. If it hadn't been so obviously OP, you wouldn't be complaining because the saves HAVE NOT BEEN CHANGED, only when the effect procs, you wouldn't be noticing THAT much of a difference if the mob saves were that high no matter HOW often you got the effect to proc if they ONLY failed on a 1 or 2...or did you neglect to notice that with all the math you've been spouting?

Firstly i have... REPEATEDLY.. stated that the high threat weapons made this OP and it needed a nerf, so dont try to put me on the side of it not needing a fix.

Secondly, going from "on crit" to "on 20" is a huge nerf (way more than required)
Terror (pre MotU) had a profile of 17-20, Tharak wraps 19-20. To see how strong a nerf to the kill portion of nightmares: imagine your DPS spell (or HEAL) being nerfed by 50% (wraps) or 75% (sword), thats how strong the nerf was.

I had the luxury of playing PRE NERF and POST NERF in FR content (where the mob FORT/WILL saves are supposedly weak) :rolleyes, and in epic elite i would get MAYBE 1-2 PK in a run now maybe get 1 every 4-6 runs.
(and that was a ton of swings on a kensai with momentum swing every 3 seconds)

In epic hard a lot of my targets would die to PK (overpowered) however my chance to "proc" just went down from 13-20 (40% per momentum swing) to just 5% (1/8 as much).. post nerf i see 0-5 PK per run even on epic normal.

Which is why i started showing the math on dual saves + 5% proc.
Some people think that because they can target a mob with a single weak save that the mob should just drop to a pk when that isnt CLOSE to the truth



PK (DC 36) vs some example Saves:
A: FORT-10%fail(33), WILL-80%(19)fail = 8% overall fail,
B: FORT-80%fail(19), WILL-10%fail(33) = 8% overall fail,
C: FORT-40%fail(29), WILL-20%fail(31) = 8% overall fail,
D: FORT-20%fail(31), WILL-40%(29)fail = also 8% overall fail.
5% (nat 20 crit) of 8% (chance to fail) = .4% proc or 1 in 250 swings

in this eg if the mob had 5000 hp and you did more than 20 damage per swing (inc misses) the dps > PK

same example with a weak 35 DC spell against mob A or B you almost ALWAYS land vs the weak save (75%)
that doesnt mean PK is worth a darn though....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For arguments sake lets assume they left Terror as proc on crit using the example mobs A: B: C: or D: above.
Terror = 19-20:10% (now killing example mobs every 125 swings)
add imp Crit = 17-20:20% (now killing example mobs every 62.5 swings)
add kensaiIII = 16-20:25% (now killing example mobs every 50 swings)
add momentum swingIII = 13-20:40% (now killing example mobs every 31.25 momentum swings)
add high threat weapon 18-20 = 11-20:50% (now killing mobs every 25 momentum swings)

WHICH is why i advocate the "fix" being a flat 15-20% proc regardless of crit/vorpal - "not too little, not too much" but still a nerf

[Stillwaters]

@Stillwaters

/snip

Useful info aside from 1 fact: Overwhelming crit and devastating crit (locking you into LD epic destiny), and even Frenzied BeserkerII and III, add 1 multiplier each on 19-20 to EVERY WEAPON, their usefulness is equal across the board!!

It is true though at THAT point when you are in Leg dread tier 5 already, that at tier 6 Headmans chop adds another X1 and makes AXE ONLY weapons get another multiplier.

So Finally... at lvl 20+ when your Destiny activates (or ~23-24 when you grind out LD to t6) x3 comes ahead, and ONLY for axes.
And if damage is equal ONLY on momentum swings!

For the record i was pointing out that Threat+multiplier+(insert multiplyable damage here) is how you determine a wep's value. It simply cannot be dumbed down to "Multiplier is more important", or "Threat is more important"
Just as with dual saves its the COMBINATION that matters!

I will try to show you what I mean:
<> is 20x3 wep () is 18-20x2 wep
I'll assume equal base damage (all multiplyable) of 50 for ease and hit on 2 + confirm crit on 1

STANDARD                             IMPROVED CRIT                KENSAI                Momentum Swing
Dice    +Threat    +Multiplier    +Threat    +Multiplier    +Threat    +Multiplier    +Threat    +Multiplier
 1      (0)        <0>            (0)        <0>            (0)        <0>            (0)        <0>
 2      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 3      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 4      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 5      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 6      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 7      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 8      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 9      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
10      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
11      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>
12      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>
13      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>
14      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>
15      (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <150>
16      (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <150>
17      (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <150>
18      (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <150>          (100)      <150>
19      (100)      <50>           (100)      <150>          (100)      <150>          (100)      <150>
20      (100)      <150>          (100)      <150>          (100)      <150>          (100)      <150>
Dmg     (1100)     <1050>         (1250)     <1150>         (1300)     <1250>         (1450)     <1550>
Ratio         22:21                     25:23                     26:25                     29:31  

Overwhelming + Devastating crit + Frenzied BeserkerIII (extra x4 on 19-20 rolls)

Standard                             IMPROVED CRIT             KENSAI*FB n/a*         Momentum Swing *FB*       Momentum Swing *Kensai* 
Dice    +Threat    +Multiplier    +Threat    +Multiplier    +Threat    +Multiplier    +Threat    +Multiplier    +Threat    +Multiplier
 1      (0)        <0>            (0)        <0>            (0)        <0>            (0)        <0>            (0)        <0>
 2      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 3      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 4      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 5      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 6      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 7      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 8      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 9      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
10      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
11      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>
12      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>
13      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>
14      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>
15      (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <150>
16      (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <150>          (100)      <150>
17      (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <150>          (100)      <150>
18      (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <150>          (100)      <150>          (100)      <150>
19      (300)      <50>           (300)      <350>          (200)      <250>          (300)      <350>          (200)      <250>
20      (300)      <350>          (300)      <350>          (200)      <250>          (300)      <350>          (200)      <250>
Dmg     (1500)     <1250>         (1650)     <1550>         (1500)     <1450>         (1800)     <1950>         (1650)     <1750>
Ratio         32:25                     33:31                     30:29                     36:38                     33:35

So super threat wep is still winning in all cases bar momentum swing! even death frenzy (another x1 on 19-20) will not change this apart from adding 2 to each of the final ratios.
unsure if death frenzy only adds on 19-20, if it adds to all crits even on momentum swing the high threat wep wins,
ratio 45:42


finally headsmans chop: so now 1 destiny and 1 weapon type possible (also one class and one PRE)
ultimate critical machine

Standard                             IMPROVED CRIT             KENSAI*FB n/a*         Momentum Swing *FB*       Momentum Swing *Kensai* 
Dice    +Threat    +Multiplier    +Threat    +Multiplier    +Threat    +Multiplier    +Threat    +Multiplier    +Threat    +Multiplier
 1      (0)        <0>            (0)        <0>            (0)        <0>            (0)        <0>            (0)        <0>
 2      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 3      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 4      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 5      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 6      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 7      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 8      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
 9      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
10      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>
11      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>
12      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>
13      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>
14      (50)       <50>           (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>
15      (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <150>
16      (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <150>          (100)      <150>
17      (50)       <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <150>          (100)      <150>
18      (100)      <50>           (100)      <50>           (100)      <150>          (100)      <150>          (100)      <150>
19      (300)      <50>           (300)      <400>          (200)      <300>          (300)      <400>          (200)      <300>
20      (300)      <400>          (300)      <400>          (200)      <300>          (300)      <400>          (200)      <300>
Dmg     (1500)     <1250>         (1650)     <1550>         (1500)     <1550>         (1800)     <1950>         (1650)     <1850>
Ratio         32:26                     33:31                     30:31                     36:39                     33:37

again if death frenzy adds to all crits not just 19-20, even on momentum swing high threat wins 45:44

As you can see comparing the 18-20x2 vs 20x3 with equal multiplyable avg damage, (even including the headsmans chop) only kensai or momentum swing (which you'd be a fool not to take/twist) bring an axe ahead
and the main factor there is INCREASED THREAT RANGE, though as i put earlier you need to put ALL the parts together, not assume one is better/more valuable all the time.

/disclaimer: High threat weps may have less base damage than high crit ones so factor in the ratio by the avg wep damage.
also T4 LD ability Anvil of Thunder adds stun on crit so is VERY worthwhile (works with axes).

EDIT: so much hard work just to prove that "optimising for crits" was not just about PK procs /sigh

[Adalard]

I use Tharak wraps on my monk and i realy had fun doing so. Then came nightmare on everything and that is is what nerfed it. 2 items in the game with nightmare the Tharak Wraps and Terror made both sought after items. as for the wraps they were the best in the game not any more. And the arguement that monks are too powerfull with certain items... I don't see it. IMHO nightmare should be a soughtafter enhancement to items and not just droping anywhere and everywhere. Get rid of nightmare on everyday items and you will bring the ballance back into play. I play to have fun not to be the most uber in the game. I build my characters to be the best that they can. But nerfing terror and tharak wraps has caused this to be a little less fun. i agree with and 18-20 crit and then the save at a moderate lvl not low not high.