Nightmare Items

[KristovK]

What the Lolth are you dribbling?

Maybe you should stop running shortman solo/normal epic runs or just in the zones and actually head into an epic hard or elite mission in a full party.

I refuse to play FR in epic normal mode as it is gad darn BORING, even on hard i can solo while 5 party members park at the entrance, and its NOT due to weak saves, or PK.

34DC hold spell is rocking the new content huh? id love some of what you are smoking, please pass to the left.

The reason I can tell you are "full of it", is unfortunately my kensai fighter is STILL using a nightmare blade and is RARELY getting force damage procs, let alone the almost non existent PK proc, unless of course its the short run to the mission itself and i bother to swipe a few zone slayer points.

As i said before the prenerf Nightmare WAS OP on certain weapons, but stating rubbish like its still ok is complete nonsense, unless of course you are running missions under level or on baby-mode.

Can't see what you and Skeald are running on MyDDO but my own quest log is showing fine, had my Air Savant in eHard quests last night, full parties, sticking a Mass Hold Monster with a 31 DC without too much problem, provided I could get past the Drow SR which is a problem since my Savant has no Spell Pen feats. Ran a guildy through the first set of flagging quests and did the Battle of Eveningstar with a PUG as well. So..ya wanna tell me again what quests and what difficulty I'm running at? You, Stillwaters, have nothing showing on MyDDO and Skeald is only showing that he recently used an Experience Stone and leveled up, no quest log. So..what exactly are you guys running and where? Cause what I'M experiencing with Will DCs isn't jibbing with what you are reporting..and I have to get past SR for that Will DC to even come into play and it's STILL more then enough to work constantly with only a 31 on my Savant and a 34 on my PM, both of which I FREELY admit suck horribly for Enchant spells, ain't their thing by any means.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Can't see what you and Skeald are running on MyDDO but my own quest log is showing fine, had my Air Savant in eHard quests last night, full parties, sticking a Mass Hold Monster with a 31 DC without too much problem, provided I could get past the Drow SR which is a problem since my Savant has no Spell Pen feats. Ran a guildy through the first set of flagging quests and did the Battle of Eveningstar with a PUG as well. So..ya wanna tell me again what quests and what difficulty I'm running at? You, Stillwaters, have nothing showing on MyDDO and Skeald is only showing that he recently used an Experience Stone and leveled up, no quest log. So..what exactly are you guys running and where? Cause what I'M experiencing with Will DCs isn't jibbing with what you are reporting..and I have to get past SR for that Will DC to even come into play and it's STILL more then enough to work constantly with only a 31 on my Savant and a 34 on my PM, both of which I FREELY admit suck horribly for Enchant spells, ain't their thing by any means.

enorm and ehard are notoriously easy the real game is on Eelite. I guarantee you that the mobs will laugh at your dc, even with a 49 enchant dc your holds will hit about 50% of the time only.

[Chai]

I am curious what metric you are using to define "...plenty..." - i'm seeing maybe 5%-10% so if that is "plenty" by your defination, somthing is wrong

By "going off" do mean the mob has a chance to roll 2 saves (1 will DC36, and 1 Fort DC36) or do you mean a Guaranteed instakill from a PK proc. - if you mean the later then you are sadly mistaken

Whats being mistaken/overlooked here is that the devs have their own methods of gathering the correct data, and dont have to believe the forumites who will usually exagerate in favor of the point they are making on either side of the discussion. You can tell me it almost never worked and I could tell you it practically always worked, but for someone who has the ability to pull the data needed to make an objective informed decision, both subjective viewpoints arent relevant.

It is not hard to create/implement a script from the back end to find out how many mobs are being killed by the nightmare effect on a quest by quest basis. Once they had that data, their conclusion supported what I and some others have been saying about this effect for a while now. Its OP compared to other prefixes.

I used to run the same types of scripts on the back end when I ran a NWN persistent world for almost 5 years. People would post on the forums exageratedly that saves on specific mobs (always the ones that gave buku XP or good loot mind you) needed to be lowered, because they have to roll a 1 to fail, zomg!!! My replies would use that data in my eventual reply, to show that they couldnt pull the wool over my eyes. "Looking at the data from your character playing in that zone over the past 3 days, I can see two different streaks where you were able to insta kill trash mobs several times in a row before one of them made a save. I can also see only two situations where the same mob saved more than once.

[Chai]

enorm and ehard are notoriously easy the real game is on Eelite. I guarantee you that the mobs will laugh at your dc, even with a 49 enchant dc your holds will hit about 50% of the time only.

The "real game". LOL. Are you referring to that game where its more than twice as hard to complete with no more chance for good loot than if you had run it on hard or normal? SInce when does the definition of "real game" equate to "moar time sync"?

The reason to run elite right now is favor. Thats it. Some people have nothing but high end gear slotted and they want a challenge. They run elite from time to time. Most of us understand that obvious time sync is obvious, run elite once for the favor unlocks, then run hard for loot. Being capable of running elite doesnt mean it makes sense to repeatedly do it.

With a 49 enchant DC someone who knows what to do as far as debuffs are concerned will land alot more than 50%. The SR is insane on elite. The saves are are not the toughest obsticle. The saves can be debuffed quite a bit. The SR is natural to their race, so its tougher to take down.

I think its hilarious when people try to imply that something is only relevant in the highest possible settings, when in fact, this is not the case at all with DDO. Its even funnier when those who disagree attempt to imply that those they disagree with must be running normal or pushing easy buttons, as if somehow not sharing your opinion means not being able to play "the real game". The irony lies in the fact that those making this repeated accusation are the ones trying to argue in favor of keeping the easy button in the game.

[SilkofDrasnia]

The "real game". LOL. Are you referring to that game where its more than twice as hard to complete with no more chance for good loot than if you had run it on hard or normal? SInce when does the definition of "real game" equate to "moar time sync"?

The reason to run elite right now is favor. Thats it. Some people have nothing but high end gear slotted and they want a challenge. They run elite from time to time. Most of us understand that obvious time sync is obvious, run elite once for the favor unlocks, then run hard for loot. Being capable of running elite doesnt mean it makes sense to repeatedly do it.

With a 49 enchant DC someone who knows what to do as far as debuffs are concerned will land alot more than 50%. The SR is insane on elite. The saves are are not the toughest obsticle. The saves can be debuffed quite a bit. The SR is natural to their race, so its tougher to take down.

I think its hilarious when people try to imply that something is only relevant in the highest possible settings, when in fact, this is not the case at all with DDO. Its even funnier when those who disagree attempt to imply that those they disagree with must be running normal or pushing easy buttons, as if somehow not sharing your opinion means not being able to play "the real game". The irony lies in the fact that those making this repeated accusation are the ones trying to argue in favor of keeping the easy button in the game.

Chai you don't know what you are babbling about and you like to take obvious things and ignore others that suit your point, you are far from objective. They nerfed nightmare because they stupidly put it on random weapons and that was the easy fix .

That is all.

We keep telling you "terror" was not OP and you keeping spouting about your falchion all the while ignoring what we said about HIGH CRIT PROFILE weapons.

As for the dc for caster 42-45 was what u wanted pre u14, its much higher post u14 so you keep on rocking with your dc34 lol

Keep on trolling

[Skeald]

Sort of feel the need to chime in here one more time - I did a little test out in the knigs forest, this is not the most scientific, or statistically sound test ever preformed by any streach of the imagination, but these are the results that I got.

PK test - kings forest - +6 Nightmares Quarterstaff (power attack off, improved crit bludgeon, wind stance 4) I attemped to maximize the number of 'wacks' to shed it in its most positive light

80 total kills
16 kills not included in numbers (necromancers, undead, and 2 astral panther - these were killed by other weapons)
64 adjusted kills
8 PK procs
59 nightmares effects proccessed (greater than 60% of these were on spiders and wolves, it seemed to proc quite a bit on the lower critters)
12.5% of all kills were pk procs -

Vorpal test - kings forest (specifically manslayer ring) grave wrapings, power attack on, wind stance 4

67 total kills
2 Undead
4 animal
4 spiders
1 mysterious (may have Albus and his searing light - i was busy with a panther and can't tell how he died)
56 adjusted kills
29 Vorpals (i saw at least 1 that was not a kill but 100 points of damage - these are not counted, in this total)
51.8% of all kills were vorpal kills

Now these numbers would seem to support what I have been saying, but i am sure that a couple of you will point out the error in my logic, that my thinking is wrong, screenshot or it didn't happen, that i don't know what i am doing, ect, ad nausium.

But for me, these numbers tell me that any nightmares weapon is best regulated to the bank - If you are showing better numbers please post your test because i would be very interested in seeing it.

Whats being mistaken/overlooked here is that the devs have their own methods of gathering the correct data, and dont have to believe the forumites who will usually exagerate in favor of the point they are making on either side of the discussion. You can tell me it almost never worked and I could tell you it practically always worked, but for someone who has the ability to pull the data needed to make an objective informed decision, both subjective viewpoints arent relevant.

It is however comforting to see that you feel that both of our viewpoints are not relevant to the decussion

It is not hard to create/implement a script from the back end to find out how many mobs are being killed by the nightmare effect on a quest by quest basis. Once they had that data, their conclusion supported what I and some others have been saying about this effect for a while now. Its OP compared to other prefixes.

And again i am very comforted that the developers support your opinion on this.

However, it still begs the question about how an item that was previously at this level was boosted by the developers to it DC 36 level, but now suddenly after the mass proliferation of this prefix on every weapon type known to DDO - it was suddenly nerfed to be less effective than vorpal. It all just smacks of the fact that this prefix should have never been released as a random loot gen item - it tells me that they had an "O'MY god what have we done" reaction to thier mistake, it was poorly thought out, and we as players have to pay the price.

But i am not going to argue with you any further on this (i have destines to advance) - you clearly have your opinion and i have mine - on this point we will just have to agree to disagree on this from now on.

[KristovK]

Chai you don't know what you are babbling about and you like to take obvious things and ignore others that suit your point, you are far from objective. They nerfed nightmare because they stupidly put it on random weapons and that was the easy fix .

That is all.

We keep telling you "terror" was not OP and you keeping spouting about your falchion all the while ignoring what we said about HIGH CRIT PROFILE weapons.

As for the dc for caster 42-45 was what u wanted pre u14, its much higher post u14 so you keep on rocking with your dc34 lol

Keep on trolling

Silk, that's MY PM that has the 34 Enchant DCs, and I even SAID that it was a horribly low DC, but ya know something..he's a PM..Necro's spec'd ya know? DCs on his non-Necro spells really don't matter, he needs a high Necro DC and high Spell Pen, both of which he has. After a few Energy Drains even the elite epic mobs fail a DC 34 save...and btw, that's the only place I actually use Energy Drain in the FR content, a DC 34 seems to work without any help in the eNormal/eHard, just have to get past the SR, which my PM does with ease.

Skeald, points for trying to test the effects, I'll give you that. Beyond that..it should be obvious where the problems with your test are, and if you can't see them, no point discussing it.

Like Chai, used to help run NWN PWs, and I LOVED data mining scripts, one of my favs to make and set up. Turbine has been using them with this particular game since it was in alpha, and they've made many changes to the game over the years based on the data they mine. Lots of people have screamed about those changes, sworn they'd leave and all that. Here we are, 6+ years of DDO and more then a few of those who screamed years ago are still here, still playing and still screaming whenever any obviously OP thing gets changed.

[Skeald]

Snip

Skeald, points for trying to test the effects, I'll give you that. Beyond that..it should be obvious where the problems with your test are, and if you can't see them, no point discussing it.

Saying something is obvious, and then making no comments is not saying anything at all - let her rip, I'm all ears

[LightBear]

On the DC discussion, it's besides the point how high (or low) it is.

There will always be a failure on the roll of a one, always.

Nightmare took advantage of that in some way, a higher crit range on a weapon just meant your odds of the foe rolling a one would be reached sooner.

Now what's so bad about the change is if your wielding a Nightmare weapon at level (eg 21+, not including named items or prestige enhancements) all that you have going for is the mobs rolling a one. From level 16 and above most of the mobs are saving on a 2. That's why arcane arches get the fear effect on top of it, otherwise it just plain sucks (big time).

The only way a nightmare weapon would be overpowered if you take your level 25 character and drag it into a low/mid level quest and have him wield said item. The thing is, if your level is that much over the quest level and your relying on a nightmare weapon to do it's proc-ing there's something seriously wrong with your play style. Tho I do see a climbing trend in WF sorcs that wield a two wander.

[Chai]

Sort of feel the need to chime in here one more time - I did a little test out in the knigs forest, this is not the most scientific, or statistically sound test ever preformed by any streach of the imagination, but these are the results that I got.

PK test - kings forest - +6 Nightmares Quarterstaff (power attack off, improved crit bludgeon, wind stance 4) I attemped to maximize the number of 'wacks' to shed it in its most positive light

80 total kills
16 kills not included in numbers (necromancers, undead, and 2 astral panther - these were killed by other weapons)
64 adjusted kills
8 PK procs
59 nightmares effects proccessed (greater than 60% of these were on spiders and wolves, it seemed to proc quite a bit on the lower critters)
12.5% of all kills were pk procs -

Vorpal test - kings forest (specifically manslayer ring) grave wrapings, power attack on, wind stance 4

67 total kills
2 Undead
4 animal
4 spiders
1 mysterious (may have Albus and his searing light - i was busy with a panther and can't tell how he died)
56 adjusted kills
29 Vorpals (i saw at least 1 that was not a kill but 100 points of damage - these are not counted, in this total)
51.8% of all kills were vorpal kills

Now these numbers would seem to support what I have been saying, but i am sure that a couple of you will point out the error in my logic, that my thinking is wrong, screenshot or it didn't happen, that i don't know what i am doing, ect, ad nausium.

But for me, these numbers tell me that any nightmares weapon is best regulated to the bank - If you are showing better numbers please post your test because i would be very interested in seeing it.

What you would really need to show, is how many HP you did not need to damage your way through. Vorpal will only kill if the mob is on its last 1k HP or less. PK can kill on the first hit. The higher the mob HP gets, the more the scenario favors nightmare over vorpal. The lower the mob HP gets, the more the scenario favors DPS over vorpal. Vorpal does have a small niche but when those HP get inflated, nightmare has the advantage.

It is however comforting to see that you feel that both of our viewpoints are not relevant to the decussion

The real context there is that overexagerated subjective claims are not relevant, when the devs have the tools to collect the needed data to make an objective decision.

And again i am very comforted that the developers support your opinion on this.

However, it still begs the question about how an item that was previously at this level was boosted by the developers to it DC 36 level, but now suddenly after the mass proliferation of this prefix on every weapon type known to DDO - it was suddenly nerfed to be less effective than vorpal. It all just smacks of the fact that this prefix should have never been released as a random loot gen item - it tells me that they had an "O'MY god what have we done" reaction to thier mistake, it was poorly thought out, and we as players have to pay the price.

But i am not going to argue with you any further on this (i have destines to advance) - you clearly have your opinion and i have mine - on this point we will just have to agree to disagree on this from now on.

It was overpowered when terror and the tharack wraps were the only weapons that had the effect as well.

The sheer number of swings people take in DDO when in melee plays a significant role. When a weapon has a chance to outright kill an opponent on 20% of all swings its already pretty rediculous.

I also see people making the claim that the items "had to be farmed"....running mindsunder on casual until the end reward guy is ransacked, then swapping toons and continuing is not the definition of "hard to get item" in my book. Anyone who wanted one had one, and did not need to wait for the update to flood the market with the effect.

It needed to be on vorpal in the first place. The mistake was making it on crit, and then leaving it on crit for so long that people got used to it and overused it, so it becomes more of a shock when the nerf bat gets swung.

[Chai]

On the DC discussion, it's besides the point how high (or low) it is.

There will always be a failure on the roll of a one, always.

Nightmare took advantage of that in some way, a higher crit range on a weapon just meant your odds of the foe rolling a one would be reached sooner.

Now what's so bad about the change is if your wielding a Nightmare weapon at level (eg 21+, not including named items or prestige enhancements) all that you have going for is the mobs rolling a one. From level 16 and above most of the mobs are saving on a 2. That's why arcane arches get the fear effect on top of it, otherwise it just plain sucks (big time).

The only way a nightmare weapon would be overpowered if you take your level 25 character and drag it into a low/mid level quest and have him wield said item. The thing is, if your level is that much over the quest level and your relying on a nightmare weapon to do it's proc-ing there's something seriously wrong with your play style. Tho I do see a climbing trend in WF sorcs that wield a two wander.

No, mobs were not saving on a 2. The DC is perfectly relevant to the discussion. Drow in particular have lower saves and high SR. Funny, nightmare doesnt check SR. Drow trash dont fail only on a 1 to a 36 DC.

And you have it backward. Nightmare is more overpowered the higher the mob HP get, not lower. Its alot more convenient to instakill 3500 HP mobs than it is to instakill 1000 HP mobs.

[LightBear]

No, mobs were not saving on a 2. The DC is perfectly relevant to the discussion. Drow in particular have lower saves and high SR. Funny, nightmare doesnt check SR. Drow trash dont fail only on a 1 to a 36 DC.

And you have it backward. Nightmare is more overpowered the higher the mob HP get, not lower. Its alot more convenient to instakill 3500 HP mobs than it is to instakill 1000 HP mobs.

Sorry m8, you have it almost right. It's all about the times it can proc combined with the auto failure on the roll of a one. Higher crit range means more procs means more chances for the foe to roll a one means a higher chance to end it early. The thing is that 5% chance hardly made it worth it to use nightmare (Terror to be precise), even with the high crit range as you could kill the mobs faster by using a +5 holy burst of maiming (with icing on top ).

[Chai]

Sorry m8, you have it almost right. It's all about the times it can proc combined with the auto failure on the roll of a one. Higher crit range means more procs means more chances for the foe to roll a one means a higher chance to end it early. The thing is that 5% chance hardly made it worth it to use nightmare (Terror to be precise), even with the high crit range as you could kill the mobs faster by using a +5 holy burst of maiming (with icing on top ).

All this is true before you factor in the HP values on the mobs. If you fight 150 mobs each having 1200 HP in a dungeon youre right, you can roll through them with DPS weapons and not even think about it. If you fight 150 mobs each with 4k HP in a dungeon, nightmare starts to become advantageous, due to the number of swings needed to kill each mob being ramped up if you use DPS.

The higher the HP, each mob that gets killed by the PK effect just saved more time, and offers the group less damage input, which means less healing then if the mob had to be DPS'd all the way down each time.

Instakills become far more powerful with more inflated HP if the only alternative is DPSing mobs down to less than zero HP. Instakills that do not check SR become even more powerful when fighting mobs whose SR is their toughest defense to circumvent. Terror, and other nightmare weapons, were OP, especially -vs- drow. I could build a 7th life necro, TR'd 6 times to run the appropriate FvS/wiz lives, to have a good shot at passing drow SR, or I could just equip a terror on a first life bard and swing away? Not a tough decision.

[KristovK]

Saying something is obvious, and then making no comments is not saying anything at all - let her rip, I'm all ears

If you insist...

147 kills isn't a start for getting the stats, and that's for a single type of attack, not combined. You need 1k per type to get a basis for the stats, anything less is wasting your time, and 1k is just a good starting point.

Second, what's the rate of swings per time frame difference between the quarterstaff and unarmed? Since we're dealing with weapon properties that are soley based on the attack number rolled we really need to know exactly how many times per time frame each weapon is actually swung so we get the actual number of attempts to hit the target number of 20.

Based on the numbers you posted, if your Monk has TWF only, the quarterstaff did better then the unarmed since it swung less times for more natural 20s. Having more of the TWF feats and/or anything that increases the offhand proc % only increases how much more effective the quarterstaff was since that increases the number of swings your unarmed attacks made.

Turbine has these numbers, they know how many times every swings and connects and what the attack number rolled was. It would seem that the Nightmare weapons were indeed more powerful then some of you want to admit, even testing it with a quarterstaff against unarmed with such a low number of targets is clearly showing that AFTER the change to Nightmare.

[Llewndyn]

I go into the new content, and if there is a caster (wiz, sorc) they wail, fod or do 4k+ damage to mobs. Melee and ranged have not a prayer to keep up without something like an insta kill of their own. The necro DC's are 52+ and the casters have no problem with wadding through the content; all other party members do is increase the mobs save chance.

I for one certainly do not see a balance between casters and non-caster. Hence nerfing 'nightmare' makes no sense.

Do ANY of the turbine people actually play DDO? I mean on a daily basis with other people to experience their own game? Not trying to be offensive, but it seems clear to me that this kind of action is a reaction to forum posts not actual usage of the game.

I used a nightmare crossbow for a while but found that it was pretty mute in the new content due to the high saves and no way to increase the DC. BUT when it did work, it was fun if only for those few kills.

This is, and has been, my complaint for a while. Melees are probably awesome in Epic content. I don't play epic content, and I know a fair amount of other players who do not either. Epic content is for the elite, creme de la creme of the crop (Mmmmm... Cream of Wheat. De la Soul. What were we talking about? Oh...) and I am not that. You cannot use Terror until you hit 18. By the time you hit 18 unless you are a way above average melee you have not led a kill count with casters in the party since that one quest in Gianthold, and that was because they were AFK. The ONLY saving grace for a lot of people who do not have Min II/ Lit II/ patience to craft a bajillion shards and make some weapon you will undoubtedly find in a chest 20 minutes later was that along with your normal accoutrements, you have Terror. Terror is fun, Terror makes a boring build almost usable, Terror makes me feel all soft and fuzzy.

I put feats into THF, IC- Slashing, slot my bloodstone instead of the sustaining symbiont, all to make Terror proc as much as it does. It was great, and yet... and yet I knew all along it was not meant to be. I knew because the very few high level quests I led kill count, I heard the grumbling of casters about how overpowered it is and how we shouldn't have those or the ability to do the SAME EXACT FRIKKIN THING they are doing. "But Llewberry I am a necro specced wizzy I put a lot of points into this!" I put FEATS into making Terror more useful. I make HP sacrifices in order to use Terror. I give JUST as much as you. "But Llewbizzle you're a melee you shouldn't lead kill count melees are meatshields" = LAME. Terror doesn't work on Red names. Terror doesn't work on undead. Terror doesn't work on probably 70% of the mobs in this game. Even if Terror worked on all of this stuff though, WE ARE ON THE SAME SIDE! Why would you want to nerf your own party when you are all working toward a common goal? That makes no sense whatsoever! You, as a caster, benefit more than the melee does from instakill melee weapons. Here is how:

1. The melee hits and kills a bad guy with Terror. This almost never happens on the first hit, but usually happens a lot sooner than laying into them with a regular weapon, so...

2. You no longer need to spend SP to kill that mob

3. You can use that SP to keep casting grease

4. ...

5. Profit!

As you can see, I lost focus in this thread quickly. I shall now declare victory and move on.

[LightBear]

This is, and has been, my complaint for a while. Melees are probably awesome in Epic content. I don't play epic content, and I know a fair amount of other players who do not either. Epic content is for the elite, creme de la creme of the crop (Mmmmm... Cream of Wheat. De la Soul. What were we talking about? Oh...) and I am not that. You cannot use Terror until you hit 18. By the time you hit 18 unless you are a way above average melee you have not led a kill count with casters in the party since that one quest in Gianthold, and that was because they were AFK. The ONLY saving grace for a lot of people who do not have Min II/ Lit II/ patience to craft a bajillion shards and make some weapon you will undoubtedly find in a chest 20 minutes later was that along with your normal accoutrements, you have Terror. Terror is fun, Terror makes a boring build almost usable, Terror makes me feel all soft and fuzzy.

I put feats into THF, IC- Slashing, slot my bloodstone instead of the sustaining symbiont, all to make Terror proc as much as it does. It was great, and yet... and yet I knew all along it was meant to be. I knew because the very few high level quests I led kill count, I heard the grumbling of casters about how overpowered it is and how we shouldn't have those or the ability to do the SAME EXACT FRIKKIN THING they are doing. "But Llewberry I am a necro specced wizzy I put a lot of points into this!" I put FEATS into making Terror more useful. I make HP sacrifices in order to use Terror. I give JUST as much as you. "But Llewbizzle you're a melee you shouldn't lead kill count melees are meatshields" = LAME. Terror doesn't work on Red names. Terror doesn't work on undead. Terror doesn't work on probably 70% of the mobs in this game. Even if Terror worked on all of this stuff though, WE ARE ON THE SAME SIDE! Why would you want to nerf your own party when you are all working toward a common goal? That makes no sense whatsoever! You, as a caster, benefit more than the melee does from instakill melee weapons. Here is how:

1. The melee hits and kills a bad guy with Terror. This almost never happens on the first hit, but usually happens a lot sooner than laying into them with a regular weapon, so...

2. You no longer need to spend SP to kill that mob

3. You can use that SP to keep casting grease

4. ...

5. Profit!

As you can see, I lost focus in this thread quickly. I shall now declare victory and move on.

Finally someone who gets it!

[Chai]

Finally someone who gets it!

Hes basically saying "who cares if its OP, we're on the same side" - which goes right back to the melee -vs- casters issue some people ae still perpetuating on the forums.

Most of the people who are claiming its OP arent playing casters exclusively. The group I run with had the attitude of "oh man, this is OP - we'll enjoy it while it lasts, and not be surprised in the slightest when it gets nerfed."

[Llewndyn]

no what you have is an exploitive melee build. Yes thats right I am calling and spreading the word anyone using certain weapons and strength based melee builds are exploiters. No less then any other kind. Until they create weapon mods that can equalize strength and dex based builds by allowing dex fighters to actually surpass strength based fighters( very common in PnP as big strong guys rarely last long with a good DM around. Same reason why wizards who dress like rogues last longer. When a DM can justify saying the whole mob turns on the guy in a pointy had and a robe you learn real fast to keep your mojo under wraps.

In other words proper D&D characters should be built upon covert not overt ability and style.

For example make it so anyone obviosly strength based was always being spammed with ray of enfeeblement and make all mobs have strength based poisen dmg that only effects horcs and we are good to go in the fair play function.

I dont like the idea of big strong morons being the best of the best, this is why a man like bruce lee represents the pinnacle of physical power to so many, he wasnt born the biggest or the strongest. His ability all came from possessing one of the finest minds that devoted its genius level intellect to the study of not merely fighting but defeating any other man quickly and with minimal risk to oneself.

In DDO if I was trying to make a character based off such a man, id not be playing an orc, or focus heavily on strength, and inevitably be called gimp next to a strength based HORC. This is the problem as it insults imagination and real people all in one move by letting strength based THF builds dominate when they should be the biggest fail to use. Keep in mind Conan the most famous of all fantasy barbarians rarely if ever fought THF style, much more frequently he used a one handed broad sword partnered with dagger or shield. or sword battle axe style, always fun. But fact is two handed fighting has not nor will ever be a real world effective fighting style.

Musashi miyomoto another historically great warrior, a master swordsman unequaled by any in his lifetime chose to use nothing more then a stick for most of his duels and developed the somewhat infamous katana/wakizashi two sword style by watching spanish sailors with their rapier/dagger fencing.

Greatswords in the real world are little more then eye candy at celebrations and in court rooms. Yes some real and effective fighting styles do exist for two handed sword users, and none of them involve swinging it like a big stick, most use it closer to a pole arm which is why you see great swords like the one used by mel gibson in braveheart has a leather wrap for the first two feet of blade to give extra handhold options during a fast and frantic fight.

Not to mention its actually easier to overpower someone with two little knives then one big sword. Want to test go to the kitchen , grab the broom and stand in a corner. have your significant other stand 2 feet away with a steak knife in each hand, then just stand still and think about it for a few minutes. Think of a scene in a horror movie with someone with two knives just stabbing crazily with no glint of reason left in their eyes. Then put the weapons away and relize that knife,sword, or broken glass, getting cut hurts fairly equally and most PnP players use very advanced rules for critting to make weapons and dmg equally frightening from lvl 1 all the way to gawdhood.

well that is enough of my rant against strength centric play again. My kingdom for proper wood elves with strength equal to hill giants.

Are beautiful. I must now go home and watch all manner of kung fu flick, starting with Berry Gordy's the Last Dragon. LEEROOOYYY!!

[Chai]

no what you have is an exploitive melee build. Yes thats right I am calling and spreading the word anyone using certain weapons and strength based melee builds are exploiters. No less then any other kind. Until they create weapon mods that can equalize strength and dex based builds by allowing dex fighters to actually surpass strength based fighters( very common in PnP as big strong guys rarely last long with a good DM around. Same reason why wizards who dress like rogues last longer. When a DM can justify saying the whole mob turns on the guy in a pointy had and a robe you learn real fast to keep your mojo under wraps.

In other words proper D&D characters should be built upon covert not overt ability and style.

For example make it so anyone obviosly strength based was always being spammed with ray of enfeeblement and make all mobs have strength based poisen dmg that only effects horcs and we are good to go in the fair play function.

I dont like the idea of big strong morons being the best of the best, this is why a man like bruce lee represents the pinnacle of physical power to so many, he wasnt born the biggest or the strongest. His ability all came from possessing one of the finest minds that devoted its genius level intellect to the study of not merely fighting but defeating any other man quickly and with minimal risk to oneself.

In DDO if I was trying to make a character based off such a man, id not be playing an orc, or focus heavily on strength, and inevitably be called gimp next to a strength based HORC. This is the problem as it insults imagination and real people all in one move by letting strength based THF builds dominate when they should be the biggest fail to use. Keep in mind Conan the most famous of all fantasy barbarians rarely if ever fought THF style, much more frequently he used a one handed broad sword partnered with dagger or shield. or sword battle axe style, always fun. But fact is two handed fighting has not nor will ever be a real world effective fighting style.

Musashi miyomoto another historically great warrior, a master swordsman unequaled by any in his lifetime chose to use nothing more then a stick for most of his duels and developed the somewhat infamous katana/wakizashi two sword style by watching spanish sailors with their rapier/dagger fencing.

Greatswords in the real world are little more then eye candy at celebrations and in court rooms. Yes some real and effective fighting styles do exist for two handed sword users, and none of them involve swinging it like a big stick, most use it closer to a pole arm which is why you see great swords like the one used by mel gibson in braveheart has a leather wrap for the first two feet of blade to give extra handhold options during a fast and frantic fight.

Not to mention its actually easier to overpower someone with two little knives then one big sword. Want to test go to the kitchen , grab the broom and stand in a corner. have your significant other stand 2 feet away with a steak knife in each hand, then just stand still and think about it for a few minutes. Think of a scene in a horror movie with someone with two knives just stabbing crazily with no glint of reason left in their eyes. Then put the weapons away and relize that knife,sword, or broken glass, getting cut hurts fairly equally and most PnP players use very advanced rules for critting to make weapons and dmg equally frightening from lvl 1 all the way to gawdhood.

well that is enough of my rant against strength centric play again. My kingdom for proper wood elves with strength equal to hill giants.

I posted this in another thread. Adding it here as well.

There was a real easy way for Gary and Dave to equalize the entire equation back in the mid 70s when mulling over what stat was going to mod which skills. Ive seen it in other RPGs since then. Its pretty simple.

Dex = to hit mod. Str = damage mod. For ALL WEAPONS.

I have quite a bit of martial arts experience myself. Ive seen 5'3" tall 130LB chinese guys train with 40 pound guan dao pole arms and do some amazing things with them. Using a large weapon effectively has less to do with str, and more to do with dex and technique. People use the term "finesse weapon". All effective weapons are finesse weapons. If these builds people roll with 90 str and 8 dex translated to real life, the person would likely kill themselves trying to use a large edged weapon.

[Llewndyn]

Hes basically saying "who cares if its OP, we're on the same side" - which goes right back to the melee -vs- casters issue some people ae still perpetuating on the forums.

Most of the people who are claiming its OP arent playing casters exclusively. The group I run with had the attitude of "oh man, this is OP - we'll enjoy it while it lasts, and not be surprised in the slightest when it gets nerfed."

I am not really saying that. I am saying we're on the same side, so where is the hate coming from? What benefit do you get right now from running a non-epic melee? With echoes of power, torcs (which I am told often are required gear and so assume they drop in every DQ I DON'T run in, but that's fodder for another thread entirely), Conc Opp, Mnemonic potions that instantly replace 600 SP without any negative side effects, Shrines that no matter how many HP you have replace ALL of your spell points, Why is is OP to let melees have this ONE THING, this ONE thing that still doesn't help us be any more useful than a decent PM? SF pots are a joke, and CSW is completely useless past level 12 unless you used CON as a dump stat, there's NO potion I know of that can replace 300-600 HP per pot with no side effects, lifeshield is a joke and rarely procs in my limited experience, so why can't I have this one equalizer? I personally have GS weapons, rare weapons and 5 lives worth of stats and tomes and stuff behind me, so I don't need them, but for a first or second lifer this would make the game much more enjoyable, and now it's nerfed almost to the point of being useless.

And I don't play melees exclusively and I AM claiming it should not be nerfed. I actually dislike playing melees for just these kinds of reasons. I bet no one would take it quietly if eDA and all that was nerfed too. I am not bagging on you specifically Chai I just think it's odd that something that made melees usable outside of a punching bag for Suulomades and Aeritreakos and all manner of end boss gets nerfed and people wonder why.

I have used this analogy before, and it holds truer now than ever before: this is the same thing as being a fluffer in a gentleman's film. Used to be if you really worked your gums, you got your name in the credits and a little bit of credit. Now you're being told the star of said film doesn't want your name in the credits, but still wants you to work your buns off. Would you complain or keep your mouth shut and take it (figuratively, as a fluffer your job is to keep your mouth open but you know what I mean)? I rest my case. Check and Mate naysayers!