Healing and Spell Power

[Saravis]

the performance of Heal and Mass Heal remains approximately equal to its performance before the expansion pack, erring on the side of a small buff to effectiveness for characters whom are diligent in upgrading equipment as they level.

Thank you for the communication.

Pardon if this has been asked, but what do you define as a "small buff"?
I ask this because HP in many areas has seen a rather "large buff" and trying to heal someone with 1500 hp with only a 300-400 heal, even a 600 heal, isn't going to be pleasant.

[fco-karatekid]

...
Take the Heal spell.

For a character with the max life magic line (life magic IV), and no metas. I also exclude healing amp since it applies equally to both cases.

Old system, with superior potency or superior devotion:

150 x (1+.4+.5) + 150*1.9 = 285

New system, with the SAME equipment (sup potency VI converted, so assume sp 48 with an implement bonus of 9)
SP = 100 + (40+48+9)/2 = 168.5. Times 150 = 252, a 12% loss.

Now, we'd all agree that equipment is gimp, so let's toss it out, and use better at-level equipment. Say a devotion 72 item, with a 15 implement bonus. That is STILL

SP = 100 + (40+72+15)/2 = 183, times 150 = 274, a 4% loss.
...

I am REALLY trying to stay out of this discussion, because it really doesn't affect me much; but perspective...

OLD system, you would have to cast twice to get a 1 HP character back up to the average run-of-the mill HP topped-off point (~500); thrice for some of the 600+'ers

NEW system, you have to cast twice to get a 1 HP character back up to the average run-of-the mill HP topped-off point (~500); thrice for some of the 600+'ers

I see - HUUUUUGE difference now!

[danotmano1998]

Hey everyone,
TLDR Version: (Quick Summary)
• Some spells gain reduced benefit from Spell Power.
• This is because they are not affected by one or more metamagics.
• This keeps them approximately the same or a little better than they were before the expansion.
• This maintains the preexisting balance between those spells and other spells.
• If you want your spells to be as strong as possible, use an item that boosts that specific type of Spell Power.

Outstanding, thank you for such an informative post.
+1, and then some!

I now have no question as to why and what things were done, and I think you guys are doing a great job communicating with posts like this one.

[DarkForte]

I am REALLY trying to stay out of this discussion, because it really doesn't affect me much; but perspective...

OLD system, you would have to cast twice to get a 1 HP character back up to the average run-of-the mill HP topped-off point (~500); thrice for some of the 600+'ers

NEW system, you have to cast twice to get a 1 HP character back up to the average run-of-the mill HP topped-off point (~500); thrice for some of the 600+'ers

I see - HUUUUUGE difference now!

Except your run of the mill hp is closer to 600-700 now.

[XavierElanor]

I understand the need to streamline spell boosting and I like the spell power system. But I've read your reasons for singling out certain spells and I reject them for anything other than "just because". Translation for me personally: Throw out your epic items and buy a randomly generated magic stick so you're "level appropriate". Please stop ****ing on our shoes and telling us its raining. A nerf by omission is still nerf. What would a well equipped, full power heal hit for? 750-800? Is that too much when there are paladins getting close to if not breaking 2000 hps? Sure responsible players have heal amp, but how many players do not?

[fco-karatekid]

Except your run of the mill hp is closer to 600-700 now.

neg all you want - but 4 casts then to heal 700 is 4 casts now at 700.

[Autolycus]

I suspect the latter. I've seen no evidence that any divine offensive spells other than the one named in the original post of this thread (Summon Archon) gains reduced benefit from Spell Power. All my testing has shown they're all spot on for the 100% that we have them set to.

I think this is just a case of the one person who tried to test it actually used Summon Archon to do so, then the "light spells are getting half also" word just spread around, despite being inaccurate.

Could you please ask the appropriate person look into this? There are multiple posts from multiple people that have noted several spells, especially Light spells, not doing the damage they should (Silver Fire, DP, BB, etc.).

I know personally that Silver Fire doesn't come close to it's stated minimum base damage even thought I have all 4 tiers of the Smiting enhancement line and a potency item to boot.

BTW, why did Silver Fire and Consume replace Searing Light and Implosion on the cleric spell list? Is this intentional?

[Vellrad]

I'm not going to comment on heal/mass heal.

But why you decided to make wizard PrE slas reduced spell power, instead of using 1d3 damage per level and full spell power?

[ZeebaNeighba]

I'm not going to comment on heal/mass heal.

But why you decided to make wizard PrE slas reduced spell power, instead of using 1d3 damage per level and full spell power?

I'm no Madfloyd, but I can field this one.
Part of the reason why it is nice for us to have this ability to set these coefficients for what percentage of Spell Power a spell benefits from is that it is very easy to modify.
This means that we can and are willing to make adjustments to spells which are underperforming.

The current 50% values for the spells listed in the original post are initial pegs to make sure they were remaining pretty close to their pre-expansion values, they were not intended as a rebalancing pass.

If we see certain spells under-preforming or that are in need of help, we now have the ability to tweak them upwards as needed, in whatever incremental amounts work best to nudge them into place.

Also 1d3 per level is kind of weaker than how it is with reduced spell power, unless you get some ridiculously powerful items and stuff.

[katz]

long post of awesome information.

THANK you for the explanation. thank you very much... i appreciate you taking the time and writing all this up to clarify why you did what you did. thank you.

Adding implement bonus and slightly increasing the Spell power of alchemical items would balance this.

^ this please? my healer did not yet have a devotion9 item, but i can see how it's a bit of a kick in the teeth to hamstring it right after giving it to us... with the added bit of random lootgen having MORE devotion being insult to injury. i think buffing alchemical just a bit more to bring it in line with something you can just randomly get would be a nice move and go a long way to not alienating the healers who worked hard to get what is basically, in light of the aforementioned random loot, a nearly worthless item.

[justagame]

I am REALLY trying to stay out of this discussion, because it really doesn't affect me much; but perspective...

OLD system, you would have to cast twice to get a 1 HP character back up to the average run-of-the mill HP topped-off point (~500); thrice for some of the 600+'ers

NEW system, you have to cast twice to get a 1 HP character back up to the average run-of-the mill HP topped-off point (~500); thrice for some of the 600+'ers

I see - HUUUUUGE difference now!

Well, if you're going to hop into it, the least you can do is reply to the full post, and not omit the important textual parts.

Sure, depending on equipment, it's "only" a small decrease. But that's when we're seeing a huge increase in hit points, increases in mob damage dealt, and increase in spell power of other spells. Read your response again. DO you really believe run of the mill and high end hit points are remaining the same? When everything else is going up by leaps and bounds, and you're "only decreasing a little", you're falling way behind.

Furthermore, in order to keep that decrease that small, you have to swap out items that give power to your other spells. You have to find and equip a devotion item just for Heal to hit for as much as before, and even that is a much smaller percentage of total hp. And divines have few fewer options to mitigate that problem than arcanes do. Everyone else gets to seek out new loot to get better. Divines NEED it to avoid getting worse by too much.

[fco-karatekid]

Well, if you're going to hop into it, the least you can do is reply to the full post, and not omit the important textual parts....

Will do ... like that important piece Feather posted elsewhere that said:

"I'm no Madfloyd, but I can field this one.
Part of the reason why it is nice for us to have this ability to set these coefficients for what percentage of Spell Power a spell benefits from is that it is very easy to modify.
This means that we can and are willing to make adjustments to spells which are underperforming.

The current 50% values for the spells listed in the original post are initial pegs to make sure they were remaining pretty close to their pre-expansion values, they were not intended as a rebalancing pass.

If we see certain spells under-preforming or that are in need of help, we now have the ability to tweak them upwards as needed, in whatever incremental amounts work best to nudge them into place."

Which I believe to be relevant and contextual.

[Untfell]

Hey everyone,

We wanted provide clarifications on some of the confusion surrounding Spell Power, and to address the perception that healing has decreased in effectiveness.

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. Much appreciated.

[Lohingren1]

All these long equations and bad math for the sake of a simple explanation

a few points to make

1) spell power as it is now no longer is effected or capped by level thus no more need for a glacier set/Ragalia/all those VIII/IX items to get your lvl 8/9 spell damage increased. Which = Buff and also less gear needed also = Buff.

2) Spell amp used to cap out at 70% now you get 90+ for a pre U14 Combustion/Corrosion/Impulse/Radiance item. And 102 on a U14 20+ item thats a +22% to 42% buff in all cases That Again is a clear buff.

thus regardless of a -50% spell power increase your getting a buff to your mass heal effectiveness from anything up to 32-42% increase in your heals ive confirmed this i used to hit for 390-420 with a mass heal now im hitting in 495 area was it 60 or 70% increase in positive energy effects pre U14?) I wont throw out blatantly trolling math and tunnel viewed opinions. Its apparent your Mas Heal got a buff.


3) Ok Metamagics got nerfed (?) slightly

4) Ok Single heal also got slightly nerfed by maybe like 30 points of damage or so? Big whoop im gonna be so gimped i heal for 30hp less on a spot heal i ONLY every use on myself in emergencies or on someone if they really need it, everyone else gets a free cure light wounds and better hope they got amp if they miss the mass heal. or better start chuggin those SF pots.

5) Your all crying doom about certain spells being nerfed, the game was already far to easy when you can solo 90% of the games content and the other 10% can be duo'd thats when ya got to realise the game needs a buff. But anyway im gonna invalidate my own statement and say.

Sure your old lvl 20 abilities got nerfed... now you got 5 new levels to play with 2 extra feats, 1 (or is it 2? im still not sure if that missing lvl 24 point is the 1st or second epic level Ability increase) ability score and 5 skill points to add onto your umd/other skills. For a F2P, alot of people say the 5 epic levels suck.

So pre U14 would you have turned down an extra 150hp? Possible 200hp? 2W (new current term) to your criticals? 2W using Point blank shot for all you arties/AAs?

Your old stuff got nerfed because frankly if it stayed the same the already currently real easy game would have become even easier. (and it wasnt even a nerf you didnt even need for the devs to make that post about spell power explanation, twas just pandering to ignorance) you refused to see that your ability got decreased at lvl 20 because it will become FAR more superior at lvl 25. Keeping everything the same and Adding all those destiny/Epic level buffs/Feats/Others ontop would have just turned nigh on insane and totally killed the enjoyment factor of the game, since all it would be then is a glorified Single player game with a chat room due to grouping being pointless cause even noob joe round the corner could solo everything himself at lvl 20+

Now i just listed Epic Levels there which get over shadowed by Destinies. Dont even get me started on how much of a buff your toon gets with those i wont even do that cause that could go on forever far to many variables. all i can say is.

FVS Evocation specd Helf Sorc dilly firing off all sorc buffs that are actually useful, Along with 47 Evo DC WITHOUT 3 sorc lives. And probably room for even more improvement.

Nuff said, you all got a buff stop complaining and look at the big picture not at your silly old spells

[PurdueDave]

Thanks for the detailed response.

The following spells currently receive reduced benefit from Spell Power:
• The Heal spell: 50%
• The Mass Heal spell: 50%
• Necrotic Touch (Pale Master): 50%
• Necrotic Bolt (Pale Master): 50%
• Necrotic Blast (Pale Master): 50%
• Arcane Bolt (Archmage): 50%
• Arcane Blast (Archmage): 50%
• Summon Archon (Favored Soul): 50%
• All Runearm Shots: Between 50% and 80%

This is the information that needs to be in the release notes on day one.

[DarkForte]

neg all you want - but 4 casts then to heal 700 is 4 casts now at 700.

Except almost everyone had 400-500 hp before. Now, a sizeable number of people are at 600-700 (not talking bout tank builds, I pretty much exclusively scroll-heal those). Not to mention incoming damage is actually HIGHER after u14 (AC/Dodge/PRR change was made to somewhat mitigate the increase in damage. Still higher than pre u14 though), making it so that you need to throw single-target emergency heals more often (and those heals are healing for less).

Say all you want about how you are an efficient healer that just uses mass heal. When the **** hits the fan and you see one guy at 50 HP, you're not going to throw a mass heal, you're going to throw a single-target heal that with the changes might not get him to a safe threshold. Is it impossible to adapt? No, we'll just have to start spamming mass cures in the mix. Is this good for our mana pools? Heck no!

[Ancient]

I suspect the latter. I've seen no evidence that any divine offensive spells other than the one named in the original post of this thread (Summon Archon) gains reduced benefit from Spell Power. All my testing has shown they're all spot on for the 100% that we have them set to.

I think this is just a case of the one person who tried to test it actually used Summon Archon to do so, then the "light spells are getting half also" word just spread around, despite being inaccurate.

Silverlight is doing below the stated min damage. Either the description is wrong, or the spell power is very wrong. This one doesn't take a lot of testing to demonstrate.

[Ancient]

The following spells currently receive reduced benefit from Spell Power:
• The Heal spell: 50%
• The Mass Heal spell: 50%
• Necrotic Touch (Pale Master): 50%
• Necrotic Bolt (Pale Master): 50%
• Necrotic Blast (Pale Master): 50%
• Arcane Bolt (Archmage): 50%
• Arcane Blast (Archmage): 50%
• Summon Archon (Favored Soul): 50%
• All Runearm Shots: Between 50% and 80%

Could you just half the damage/heal of the original spell/SLA and leave spell power alone?

[justagame]

Silverlight is doing below the stated min damage. Either the description is wrong, or the spell power is very wrong. This one doesn't take a lot of testing to demonstrate.

And Avenging light appears to be cut in half, this just appeared with today's update.

[bigolbear]

Dear mad,
good comunication.. now. this is the kind of detailed explanation we neede to hear, not just what your doing but why.

I have a coupel of points to raise about your post

1. "Going forward, if we alter the Spell Power coefficient of a specific spell, we intend to update the tooltip to reflect either “This spell receives reduced benefit from Spell Power” or “This spell receives increased benefit from Spell Power”. This will allow us more control to boost “weaker” spells as needed without over-boosting already powerful ones."

Please be sure to tell the players the EXACT amount of spell power that is applied - if its 50% say 50%, not 'less'.



2. There are curently items which are bugged - the spell power listed in the description is not the spell power they give.

they include:
crystal cove hat - listed as 60 gives 40(20 on heal), random loot gen.


3. Canith crafting recipies are not sufficient - the ability to craft +60 element specific and +36 potency is not good enough. These recepies need to be dealt with, bear in mind you can knock out a few chalenges to get +90 element specific for all elements apart from positive, negative and light/alignment. Additonaly due to the requirement of slotting items on a more permanent basis - notably on body slots if you want to weild a proper weapon both devotion and potency should be made more available on body slots. Id propose 3 cannith challenge items that occupy some slot on the body - suggest rings or helms they would respectivly give +90 devotion and super heal lore and +90 nulification and super void lore and + 90 radiance and super radiance lore. obviosuly give them some extra features such as a relevant guard effect.


4. more spells than you have listed SEEM to be effected by reduced spell power.
4.1. light spells in general.
4.2. posibly blade barrier and comet fall, its tricky to test it.
[edit]
4.3 radiant burst is pitiful compared to what it was before, something is amis here. Especialy when used offensively vs undead. its supposed to do d8 per CL, so judging by a sorcs typical out put in the 400 range, im seeing half of that. I seem to rememebr it was doing more like 800(vs undead) and criting for 1 or 2 k before the changes - presumably because of the restoration effects it carries being applied in a damaging fashion.


5. as enhancemnts are now SO much more important for effecting your spell damage the folowing needs to happen.
1. all casters to get access to all relevant elements. I talked about this in the original enhancemnt pass some months back, the changes you have implemented have made it all the more important.

For example clerics should get access to: positive, negative, light, alignment, fire, electric, force/untyped/slash/bludgeon, sonic.

Arcanes should get access to fire,ice,lightning,acid,light,sonic,untyped,negati ve.

Any one with a dragon mark should get a spell power boost to the effectiveness of that dragon mark because other wise your turnign a weak but intersting choice into a form of self gimping.

Add to that: with epic destinies here now, imagine a divine that enters the draconic destiny - or a fighter for that matter. they have little to now way to buff their spell power.

By far the simplest short term solution is to thow divines a bone and give them access to the force line - just like artis.

Long term - come the enhancement pass if the spell power mechanics stay as they are it will be necessary to give each and every class several 'multiple enhancement selectors' for spell power, with epic destinies and dragon marks even a fighter can have spells - a surprising amount too, consider a helf fighter with the dragon mark of storm going for a blue dragon destiny.



6. Spell penetration.
You simplified spell power so it wasnt base don spell lvl, but left spell pen as is... seems a little half arsed to me, id like to hear the logic as to why.