How many HPs to shoot for for a rogue?

[wax_on_wax_off]

I dont think there silly....

Congrats on your pull, I was just making the point that don't plan on pulling a +4 con tome to hit 450 HP, you should already be at 450 before running content that has a chance of pulling a +4 con tome (20th lists not withstanding).

[Qezuzu]

I dont think there silly....

Yes they are silly because they're so rare you can't reasonably plan one in your build.

Grats on your pull, but seriously, your advice is terrible.

To OP: At lvl20, you should be shooting for over 450 HP. Get all the gear you can. At lvl25, the jury is still out, but I'm guessing over 550.

At lot has changed. You could invest in some AC now and get away with lower HP...

[Rogann]

Grats on your pull, but seriously, your advice is terrible.

What advice? Im confused now.

[wax_on_wax_off]

What advice? Im confused now.

Just take it as a general truth.

[Rogann]

Just take it as a general truth.

General truth to who? You? Okay,thats fine. However to beleive you speak for everyone else out there is absurd. Sure my advice caters to a certain playstyle but many other people like my beliefs and advice.

[wax_on_wax_off]

General truth to who? You? Okay,thats fine. However to beleive you speak for everyone else out there is absurd. Sure my advice caters to a certain playstyle but many other people like my beliefs and advice.

Advice derived from beliefs, now there's a formula for failure.

What playstyle do you cater for?
Casual: Nope.
Moderate: Nope.
TR focused: Nope.
General end game focused: Nope.

Some specific niche audience?

[Spoprockel]

...but many other people like my beliefs and advice.

Barbarians?

[Mrphish]

Barbarians?

haha, sorry i just found that quite comical.

anyway @the op -
if at level 20 with just a minos, 6 con item, and greater false life item and a +2 con tome (wouldn't normally add this in but seeing as they are extremely common now i find them to be easily obtainable by anyone, even +3's are becomeing fairly more common then they where.) you can hit 400 hp or close to unbuffed (meaning within 5 or 10 points of that number) you should be fine.

this is assumeing first life, no past lives or raid/epic loot to speak of.

[Miow]

Before Update 14 it went like this at level 20:
Plan to have over 400 HP with gear easily accessible.
Plan to have over 450 HP with close to finished gear (not including silly things like +4 con tome though).
Plan to be able to get to a stable 500 HP if you want to run Epic Lord of Blades (that is without ship buff etc).

More is good, madstone boots+silver flame potions are great for situations in which you don't need to heal others as they give you a nice extra buffer and a significant DPS boost (due to attack speed increase from 20 BAB).

My rogue (Not your Average Rogue in my sig) at level 20 has something like:
450ish with max DPS gear
500 with +3 con ring
540 with rage/ship buff
580 with madstone
620 with double madstone
640 with earth stance (18 rogue/2 monk build)
680 with yugo pot

With that I've tanked epic bosses when there wasn't anyone better suited to it (including Epic Turigulon and his previous phase friend in U13).

Madstone is absolutely horrendous you cant do anything as a rogue, i can't remember seeing anything about it be WAI but as of now i would not include it in any calculations.

[Scortius]

So he's got 500-540 regular, and more with fancy/temporary stuff.

500-540 a good target number at 20/21 when you have a good gear set established. Lots of people play in the 400's and do fine. Past 540 standing, it's probably coming out of your defenses.

[Syllph]

Figuring out HP is easy for the most part: it's not a static number or even a threshold. Every play style is different so we each need different HP for what we enjoy doing.

Bottom line: are you alive at the end of the quest that you know well - your HP are fine. Are you dying constantly in content that you know well - you need more HP.



Accidents happen and sometimes our heals don't come when we need and we miss traps, raids can be tough and stray fireballs happen- all that being said those are excusable. Death happens - even to the best of us. If you find that your play style you die each and every quest and find yourself fearing big groups of mobs - then up your HP.

I've seen players walking around at 20 with 200ish HP and while I chuckle at first: they survive - and contribute. I've also seen 900 HP barbarians that are can't handle a room of kobalds. They have no combat feats no strength nothing just con every chance they get and toughness. Giant squishy idiots. (these are extremes most with 200 hp at level 20 will fail horribly)

(Some can get nice HP correctly, but sadly so many new players see HP HP HP and just ignore everything else in lieu of having a big number. I've seen a PM drink yugo pots and rage and even madstone rage then go into lich form before joining a group just to say they have big HP.)

Just adjust to your own play style and have fun.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Madstone is absolutely horrendous you cant do anything as a rogue, i can't remember seeing anything about it be WAI but as of now i would not include it in any calculations.

Madstone is a bit broken at the moment, hopefully fixed in tonights patch. That said, I've been playing a TR5 rogue, level 15 now, and have had madstone boots on since I could pull them out of the bank with just a few swaps to innocence boots to bypass some traps, it's good to have ~400 HP at level 15.

Madstone boots are situational, they might be more situational with the non-WAI behaviour but still just situational, sometimes they're good (most raid fights, particularly the ones with large splash damage that you want to survive) and sometimes they're bad.

[Xalir]

Sry about my wrong HP value. It wasn't 597 just 517 unbuffed. Dunno, what I was thinking when I typed it. Probably was in my mind when I was on a different destiny.

[Ebforest60]

At 20 I was actually running just below 400 hp most of the time. My GS HP item was neck slot but I also have Golden Guile there and the Improved Deception seemed to help more than the extra HP if I pulled aggro (mob constantly spinning around and giving me SA.)

This is with pretty average gear, and not running the very top Epic Elite quests. I thought about gearing but with the new content I haven't quite figured out what I want, so I'm waiting on swapping the HP item slot.

As someone pointed out regarding Shadowdancer: avoidance can be more valuable than HP, as long as you can survive spikes in damage in between the misses.

[RS-Makk]

Thanks all for all the advice. A key takeaway is that my being tempted to go for epic toughness to increase survivability isn't really needed on a rogue, and also takes away from putting points into other things where I would get more out of them (depending on what I am focusing on).

Madstone is a bit broken at the moment, hopefully fixed in tonights patch.

I wasn't aware they were broken - what's wrong with them?

Also, the melee alacrity.. that still is only really 10% (not the 20% the description says) and doesn't stack with haste right? (which is a huge bummer).

On my current build/life (12 Ranger / 7 Rogue / 1 Monk) I usually throw them on for the boss fights.. where I am getting good/focused heals and I won't be self-buffing mid fight. I have multiple sets, so I am double madstoned for a bit and the HP boost during that time is awesome.

[Reaper999]

Not to get off topic, but since a rogue has umd as a class skill you can buff that skill up enough to heal yourself. Being able to tumble out of an Area of Effect and then heal yourself is great for survivability. People can argue that you have to stop DPS, but people who are dead do no dps and are a waste of mana for the healers.

I am for around 400hp. If I was using a melee rogue I would aim for over that. You always want to go with your rogue abilities that help you mitigate damage. Dodge rating, diplomacy, bluff, tumble, blur scrolls, etc. Rogue class is like a bag of tricks and you use w/e you can find to be the most resourceful in a situation, imo.

[xveganrox]

Madstone is absolutely horrendous you cant do anything as a rogue, i can't remember seeing anything about it be WAI but as of now i would not include it in any calculations.

Madstone Boots are more important for a rogue than any other melee. They add +2/+4 str, +4/+8 con, and more importantly give you a Fighter's base attack bonus, which increases your attack speed (DOES stack with haste). They're currently bugged so you can't do a lot of things (rage, disable traps, etc) that you can normally do with them, but they're still invaluable for raid fights.

[Rogann]

Advice derived from beliefs, now there's a formula for failure.

What playstyle do you cater for?
Casual: Nope.
Moderate: Nope.
TR focused: Nope.
General end game focused: Nope.

Some specific niche audience?

Clearly we have two different views of rogues playstyles. Rogues should be focusing 100% on DPS while getting in there with the barbs and tearing things apart. If you pull aggro keep swinging(why heal you when all your doing is blocking?). If the tank cant get aggro back he should prob re-roll. This playstyle caters to all whether your casual or not. Rogues are meant to dps first, everything else second.

[Rogann]

Madstone Boots are more important for a rogue than any other melee. They add +2/+4 str, +4/+8 con, and more importantly give you a Fighter's base attack bonus, which increases your attack speed (DOES stack with haste). They're currently bugged so you can't do a lot of things (rage, disable traps, etc) that you can normally do with them, but they're still invaluable for raid fights.

I dont believe it stacks with haste. Did you mean haste boost?

[.Revenga.]

I dont believe it stacks with haste. Did you mean haste boost?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Base_Attack_Bonus

I believe it's 5% speed attack bonus for each 5 BAB. I can be wrong about that tho.