Rogue 13/Monk 6/Druid 1...Nature's Spy

[Myrddinman]

I would love some input on this build possibility. I haven't fully fleshed it out yet, but wanted to put it up to the collective to garner some feedback and direction.

Here are a few thoughts...
-13 Rogue for Sneak and Thief Acrobat II for Quarterstaff attack speed and Uncanny/Improved Uncanny Dodge uses, which should be cool with the new temporary dodge bonuses (does anyone know what happened in U14 now that there is a cooldown vs. uses per rest?)
-6 Monk for bonus feats, Adept of Air (10% stacking attack speed & 5% Doublestrike) and Ninja Spy I for Shadow Fade & extra Sneak Attack
-1 Druid for Ram's Might and Shillelagh

Again, I haven't worked everything out yet, but wanted to put out there what I have so far.

Thanks for the input and thoughtful discussion

[Myrddinman]

I decided to try the build and am sitting at 3 Rogue/3 Monk/1 Druid.

So far I'm liking it and the 1 level of Druid for Ram's Might and Shillelagh is working really well with Quarterstaff (right now, Souleater).

I went with HElf for Fighter Dilly to add some points to Stunning Blow/Trip/Sunder DCs. Also the second clicky for Bluff is working great as well.

I'm sitting in Air Stance for the Doublestrike chance and attack speed boost.

Does anyone have any suggestions or comments?

[Diyon]

Good setup, thought about it myself. One thing though, Air stance attack speed doesn't stack with haste (you did say "stacking attack speed").

[Myrddinman]

Good setup, thought about it myself. One thing though, Air stance attack speed doesn't stack with haste (you did say "stacking attack speed").

Thanks.

As for the stacking, I was referring to Air Stance/Thief Acrobat. I should have been more clear

[wax_on_wax_off]

Definitely a solid concept, the +2 damage/+2 strength from Ram's Might and +1[weapon damage] from Sha La La is a solid addition to the Acrobat platform.

My approach to such a build would be to focus on movement speed, crowd control and survivability as it'll never compete toe-to-toe in the DPS arena. Improved Trip, Hamstring and even Sap could be useful. I hear the Improved Feint/Great Cleave combo is good fun as well.

I'd suggest to plan out the build from level 1 to 25, it's too painful to hit x level and realise you've messed something up but at least you have 1 LR available (though I'd prefer to save that if possible).

[Myrddinman]

Definitely a solid concept, the +2 damage/+2 strength from Ram's Might and +1[weapon damage] from Sha La La is a solid addition to the Acrobat platform.

My approach to such a build would be to focus on movement speed, crowd control and survivability as it'll never compete toe-to-toe in the DPS arena. Improved Trip, Hamstring and even Sap could be useful. I hear the Improved Feint/Great Cleave combo is good fun as well.

I'd suggest to plan out the build from level 1 to 25, it's too painful to hit x level and realise you've messed something up but at least you have 1 LR available (though I'd prefer to save that if possible).

Thanks Wax!

I do plan on going with Great Cleave, so the combo with Improved Feint sounds interesting, but I would need to grab Combat Expertise (I was planning on going with Power Attack instead); however, I am trying to go with a Bluff theme.

I am also still wavering on whether or not HElf was a good idea, or if I should have opted for the extra feat for Human. As such, I really went with HElf for the Fighter Dilly so that I could add some Tactics bonuses. I supposed I could have went with Dwarf for the Con bump and still kept the Tactics boost.

Here's the feat list so far:
1. Power Attack
2. Toughness
3. Cleave
4. Great Cleave
5. Dodge
6. Stunning Blow
7. IC: Bludgeon
8. Mobility
9. Spring Attack
10. Improved Trip

I believe I still get two more feats after 18, correct?

[Myrddinman]

Also, does anyone know if the [weapon damage] boost of Combat feats like Cleave, stack with the [weapon damage] boost from Shillelagh?

Thanks!

[wax_on_wax_off]

Thanks Wax!

I do plan on going with Great Cleave, so the combo with Improved Feint sounds interesting, but I would need to grab Combat Expertise (I was planning on going with Power Attack instead); however, I am trying to go with a Bluff theme.

I am also still wavering on whether or not HElf was a good idea, or if I should have opted for the extra feat for Human. As such, I really went with HElf for the Fighter Dilly so that I could add some Tactics bonuses. I supposed I could have went with Dwarf for the Con bump and still kept the Tactics boost.

Here's the feat list so far:
1. Power Attack
2. Toughness
3. Cleave
4. Great Cleave
5. Dodge
6. Stunning Blow
7. IC: Bludgeon
8. Mobility
9. Spring Attack
10. Improved Trip

I believe I still get two more feats after 18, correct?

You need Combat Expertise (and 13 int) to qualify for Improved Trip. I'd swap out Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack for Improved Feint/Combat Expertise/Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning perhaps (to qualify for Overwhelming Critical). Remember the 21 dex requirement for Improved Sneak Attack too.

[Myrddinman]

You need Combat Expertise (and 13 int) to qualify for Improved Trip. I'd swap out Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack for Improved Feint/Combat Expertise/Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning perhaps (to qualify for Overwhelming Critical). Remember the 21 dex requirement for Improved Sneak Attack too.

Well, if I go Ninja Spy for Shadow Fade (big part of the build is evasion style defenses) I will need Dodge. I was also thinking that with the amount maneuvering and whipping the staff around, Spring Attack would be nice to have, which would mean Mobility...plus all 3 grant Dodge bonuses. You are right about Improved Trip needing Combat Expertise...forgot about that.

I haven't dug into too many of the new feats...I guess I need to

What are your thoughts on Dwarf over Human or HElf?

[elgranmago13]

Why not half-orc? Bonus to str, +4 dmg with qstaff and increased glancing blows. I have a 13 rog/6 monk/1 ftr horc that does well for me. I will probably go with the druid level if/when I TR.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Well, if I go Ninja Spy for Shadow Fade (big part of the build is evasion style defenses) I will need Dodge. I was also thinking that with the amount maneuvering and whipping the staff around, Spring Attack would be nice to have, which would mean Mobility...plus all 3 grant Dodge bonuses. You are right about Improved Trip needing Combat Expertise...forgot about that.

I haven't dug into too many of the new feats...I guess I need to

What are your thoughts on Dwarf over Human or HElf?

I'd stick with helf, the tactics adds+versatility: damage+healing amp (with light path) is just too nice. NSI isn't such a big deal now as you can get 10% incorporeality from a ghostly item (like Epic Ring of the Stalker).

[Myrddinman]

I'd stick with helf, the tactics adds+versatility: damage+healing amp (with light path) is just too nice. NSI isn't such a big deal now as you can get 10% incorporeality from a ghostly item (like Epic Ring of the Stalker).

Thanks wowo, but wouldn't Dwarf add DC bumps to all Tactics at the same time, opposed to separately like HElf? Couldn't I spend 12 APs for +3 to all Tactics, versus spending 9 APs for only +2 to only Stunning Blow, Trip and Sunder?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Thanks wowo, but wouldn't Dwarf add DC bumps to all Tactics at the same time, opposed to separately like HElf? Couldn't I spend 12 APs for +3 to all Tactics, versus spending 9 APs for only +2 to only Stunning Blow, Trip and Sunder?

Half-elf gives +3 DC from 13 AP when you consider +2 from strategy and +1 from human adaptability: strength and fighter strength I.

Overall though tactics is a smaller portion of the pie when you have +6 available from a twist. It's more about the versatility: damage (25% bonus damage+30% attack speed for 20 seconds up to 11 times/day is jaw dropping burst DPS) and healing amp (hit the 200% healing amp for some nice health back from healing curse/vampirism staff - 7/hit or something?).

[Myrddinman]

Half-elf gives +3 DC from 13 AP when you consider +2 from strategy and +1 from human adaptability: strength and fighter strength I.

Overall though tactics is a smaller portion of the pie when you have +6 available from a twist. It's more about the versatility: damage (25% bonus damage+30% attack speed for 20 seconds up to 11 times/day is jaw dropping burst DPS) and healing amp (hit the 200% healing amp for some nice health back from healing curse/vampirism staff - 7/hit or something?).

Thanks again wowo

I had almost forgotten some of the reasons I went with HElf to begin with. I just want a Dwarf, but unfortunately, there always seems to be a better race. I guess I can always hope for the Enhancement pass

[LordTigerDawn]

From a base attack point of view, taking druid reduces it by 1. I would consider instead of rogue 13 taking monk 7 or druid 2.

you do loose a rogue feat and 1d6 sneak, but the Base attack costs you 2% attack speed.

Just pointing it out...

[wax_on_wax_off]

From a base attack point of view, taking druid reduces it by 1. I would consider instead of rogue 13 taking monk 7 or druid 2.

you do loose a rogue feat and 1d6 sneak, but the Base attack costs you 2% attack speed.

Just pointing it out...

Which is what madstone/divine power clickies are for. Plus with BAB increases from epic levels you hit the 15 BAB for the next speed increase anyway so I don't think the different level split would give an attack speed increase.

[Myrddinman]

Which is what madstone/divine power clickies are for. Plus with BAB increases from epic levels you hit the 15 BAB for the next speed increase anyway so I don't think the different level split would give an attack speed increase.

^^
This

Not to mention I'd loose the +1w[weapon damage] from Shillelagh and Ram's Might.

[voodoogroves]

I'd really be tempted to look at
(a) Tripping w/ CE and Improved Trip
(b) Cleave-like spamming

Both of these lead to some strengths w/ the LD destiny. I am personally loving a multi-cleaving build right now with things like Souleater, Petrifing Shadow Staff, etc. Good fun, decent weapon-based CC (similar to AA or Artis using Frozen Tunics and Earth/other bows).


This is really the 13/6/1 of before, but without the Fighter feat and haste boost.


You'd have to gear quite a bit to get the kinds of DCs I like on epic-ish tactics DCs.

[Myrddinman]

Wow, Cleave with Souleater is sick at level 7

I am having tons of fun with this character so far. I didn't see an answer to this...do separate sources of +[W] stack with each other?

For instance, does Shillelagh at +1[W] stack with the +1[W] from Cleave?

This is really the 13/6/1 of before, but without the Fighter feat and haste boost.

Yes, it is...I think that the level of Druid adds so much more than Fighter:
-Ram's Might for +2 Strength and +2 damage
-Shillelagh for +1[W] on Q-Staves (2d6 FTW)
-You still get the first tier of class based Toughness with Druid, as you do with Fighter

You do loose out on a bonus feat, but I think I like the trade-off

[wax_on_wax_off]

I am having tons of fun with this character so far. I didn't see an answer to this...do separate sources of +[W] stack with each other?

Yes.

With epic enhancements you can add lots of different ones together to get getting +3 or 4[weapon damage].