Constructive Raid Criticism

[Judo]

[Not constructive]

[Gimpinator]

Yeah, what he said!

[pharky]

so much for being constructive lol

[Rawel_San]

Hi welcome.

I'll try and give a little bit of constructive criticism from a different view point.

First the good.

Good job on minimizing the knockoff effects and giving us a shrine at the start. Defnitely a good choice.
The fact that most of the knock off effects still left (mostly the spawning legs) seem to be completely random without
tells == not so good. Give us a tell for the legs. Let the ground bulge or glow red or what have you. Even if you
can still rez afterwards getting killed when you feel it has nothing to with your ability is a bad thing. It might not
be in other mmo's but in D&D if your gm killed you for no other reason then that he wanted to good players would
give him grief.

Also good job on making the hand knock you down instead of off. It's not great, the fact it can't be intimmed and
that the knock down check is dex/str still irks me but I'm irked by that in all knockdown checks.

More good jobs on the "we will count the legs for you and tell you that killing them is what you should do". Good
choice there. Makes the raid progress reasonably.,

Second the bad.
Now I know many people will go and disagree with me here but ***. I think your epic normal quests and your
epic normal raid just don't share difficulty AT ALL. Amrath normal with scaling is harder then epic normal for
many quests, and TOD normal is way more in line with the difficulty of amrath normal. Now I would strongly be
for upping the difficulty of epic normal rather then dumbing down the raid but I think one or the other should be
done. I feel like you decided epic normal should be for the completely casual player that just stepped off the
boat in korthos and the raid just does not reflect that so you need to fix one or the other.

The other bad. End fight is bugged to high heavens. Killed/made lloth run away then killed about 20-30 portal
keepers without the wall going down. No progress reported anywhere. Bad design.

The very bad. IF YOU WANT US TO QA TEST YOUR RAIDS FOR FREE AT LEAST HAVE THE DECENCY TO BE ONLINE
WHEN WE DO.
Seriously few things are as irritating as going to do your qa testing and feedback reporting for you and having
no dev/spokesperson on to talk to when things go wrong. VERY VERY irritating. Same thing happened last time
when we were told "we are leaving finish the raids you are in" and the raid stopped progressing once the devs/
lammania people left. Very annoying.

Well that's my 2 copper,
Rawel

[Seager52]

Hi welcome.
Rawel

Did you just "Hi Welcome" a founder?

I mean it just struck me as funny that every post above yours have join dates are earlier than you....just thought it was funny.

Not saying I support any of the content of the OP or not....so, Im not sayin, Im just sayin...

/endtroll

[Thrudh]

Did you just "Hi Welcome" a founder?

I mean it just struck me as funny that every post above yours have join dates are earlier than you....just thought it was funny.

Not saying I support any of the content of the OP or not....so, Im not sayin, Im just sayin...

/endtroll

Almost every post above his, especially the OP was completely worthless and waste of everybody's time.

The devs probably clicked on this thread because of the world "constructive". I am not happy with the OP for wasting MY time with his zero info post, and I'm especially not happy with him for wasting valuable dev time either.

[Seager52]

Almost every post above his, especially the OP was completely worthless and waste of everybody's time.

The devs probably clicked on this thread because of the world "constructive". I am not happy with the OP for wasting MY time with his zero info post, and I'm especially not happy with him for wasting valuable dev time either.

Agreed, Im not saying it isnt warrented, just that it was funny to me.

I hate forums because you have write with tone very well.

I almost didnt post because I didnt want to derail the thread...but on the other hand the thread was never on the tracks, lol.

[Cyr]

Almost every post above his, especially the OP was completely worthless and waste of everybody's time.

The devs probably clicked on this thread because of the world "constructive". I am not happy with the OP for wasting MY time with his zero info post, and I'm especially not happy with him for wasting valuable dev time either.

Negative feedback is just as valuable as positive feedback.

Sorry, but sometimes the feedback really is 'this whole idea is a bad one. start over.'

It can be hard to hear, but if the basic premises behind a concept are just plain bad then it can be faster and easier to just start over instead of spending years of time and tons of resources trying to make a bad concept into something fun to play.

[Missing_Minds]

Negative feedback is just as valuable as positive feedback

When there is constructive details given, yes it is. I saw nothing constructive in the OPs post.

Only that he thought it was something he left behind in a toilet with no explanations of what portions of his meal so irritated his gastro intestinal tract, let alone why such would irritate his system so.

[Thrudh]

Negative feedback is just as valuable as positive feedback.

Sorry, but sometimes the feedback really is 'this whole idea is a bad one. start over.'

Without reasoning WHY the whole idea is a bad one, it's worthless feedback... If you want to argue that one data point saying "Me no like" is better than no feedback, I'll give that to you.

But in no universe can you argue that the OP has any "constructive" criticism.

[MrkGrismer]

They put shrines at the beginning and changed the hand to a knockdown instead of a knockoff?

When did that happen?

[Rawel_San]

When I said shrine I meant just one, a rez shrine. The changes I'm talking about were the last iteration of the
raid on lamma. We ran it on Saturday.

[MrkGrismer]

When I said shrine I meant just one, a rez shrine. The changes I'm talking about were the last iteration of the
raid on lamma. We ran it on Saturday.

Even so, that is a big plus from what I understand, and if the hand is just doing knockdown instead of knockoff it should be an improvement.

Shame there is no teleport to Ana implemented, but at least anyone who falls off can heal themselves on the way back to the group (hopefully).

Kind of interesting that the last 'official' feedback thread for the raid appears to be for the non-shrine version.

[Rawel_San]

To be fair the post now does contain "constructive raid criticism" and unless you were there for the 5-6 raid
iterations that Judo has gone through I wouldn't go slagging him off. The reason he wrote the post was that
he did go and QA/playtest every raid incarnation there was and he did it in his own time for no gain other then
to help the game be better for all of us that play on live.

As is the raid at the moment while it has improved immensely from the original is still incredibly annoying in most
parts and severely bugged. As I pointed out in my other post we were unable to complete since the barrier at
the end would not drop no matter how many portal keepers we killed. Now there is always a possibility that
we missed something but I doubt it and if we did then it was extremely non obvious and had no in game tells.

So please before you go being all high and mighty about what people post consider that you might not have all the
information.
Kind regards,
Rawel

Ps.: My join date doesn't actually reflect my time playing the game since I'm one of those that came over from
europe when the servers there closed. That said I'm still sure Judo has been playing way longer then I have and
has lot's more experience.

[Thrudh]

To be fair the post now does contain "constructive raid criticism"

Where? Please quote where there is "constructive" raid criticism in the OP.

[Seager52]

Ps.: My join date doesn't actually reflect my time playing the game since I'm one of those that came over from
europe when the servers there closed. That said I'm still sure Judo has been playing way longer then I have and
has lot's more experience.

Ahhhh and the truth comes out. Again this was more it appeared funny. In your defense there are many founders that know little about the game.

Good on you for being a good sport about it, however.

Seager

[Missing_Minds]

Is the developer who created Von5 still on your payroll?
Titan? Lob?

Lord of Blades I don't know.

But VoN, Titan, and The Abbot were done by DevilMouse who left years ago. Actually he left shortly after (or was it just before?) the Abbot was released, if you remember the utter mess that was.

[Razcar]

Lord of Blades I don't know.

But VoN, Titan, and The Abbot were done by DevilMouse who left years ago. Actually he left shortly after (or was it just before?) the Abbot was released, if you remember the utter mess that was.

I wonder if he went to the Turbine neighbor 38 Studios, where several other DDO devs went. If so, it would be cool if Turbine hired them back now that 38 Studios went belly up.

[Rawel_San]

I'm not particularly trying to argue the OP contains much constructive criticism. I think my does contain some
though.

I also fully understand where Judo was coming from when he wrote it. I haven't been in all iterations
but I was in the last run with him and the amount of consistent annoyance the raid throws at you through
random knock offs in the first fight to the fact that we ended up killing mobs for over 45 minutes at the end
without any explanation as to why the barrier wasn't going down and no dev/helper online to at least tell us "this
is broken" or "no that's working as intended you just haven't figured it out", was large.

And the last iteration is a couple orders of magnitude less annoying then the first one was from what I
understand. The reason for that is that people like Judo, Gimp and Bailey went and playtested it and then
wrote up many feedback threads for the devs. If on the last iteration they get slightly peeved I think that's
something that can be forgiven.
Just my 2 copper,
Rawel

[Gimpinator]

Oddly, it's the same folks that troll the feedback threads but for whatever reason refuse to try the content themselves.