14.1: Freedom of Movement

[Truga]

The Scarrow Raiders in the desert sure do remove our buffs just fine.

Exactly. And Great balls of Disjunction work great. I don't see why we need to have our buffs/immunities nerfed when they make a lot of the content bearable, when they can easily get removed if the devs don't want us to have them on permanently...

Also, beholders, lol.

[NytCrawlr]

Pretty soon people will have to roll up characters that actually have double digit will saves at cap, instead of covering up every single weakness caused by min maxing with spells that blanket out half the list of spells from an entire school of magic.

The horror!

Yeah, never been a fan of the "ignore will saves" crowd.

[NytCrawlr]

It is one thing to sell items in the store and make players feel their raiding and game efforts were for naught, because someone else can get the same thing with a bit of cash

Speaking of fallacies....

[Truga]

The horror!

Yeah, never been a fan of the "ignore will saves" crowd.

I have a slight problem with will saves. No matter what I do on my rogue, it won't go much higher than +10 without any gear. Now that's not a problem on my WF, but for the last life I intend to TR into a human. Even with gear and GH, I can reach just about +20 consistently. And +20 is the same as having 0 (much like how AC used to work, amirite?) in ee content. FoM compensated for that a bit. Now what is going to happen? Melees, that already have it harder than casters these days, are going to have it even harder because of low will saves. I totally don't see any problem with that.

I'd be even tempted to stay WF, if it wasn't so much worse off right now...

[Davelfus]

Running around with a 6 or 8 wisdom and no will save mods and expecting to not be immobilized from time to time is hilarious. People are fully expecting metagaming to be a right, and while it is for extended periods of time, it doesnt last forever.

Well, my ranger runs around with 30 will save, and i remember being "nuked" in the new quests on epic hard with disco balls, which i was still failing a considerable amount of time, and power world stuns, luckly i had fom to avoid the mass holds that would also probably hold me a lot.

Will we have to roll 40+ will save toons now just to do not get totaly imobilized by casters? to reach such numbers is not only a matter of starting stats and equips, class play a big part too.

And why they only cast holds?

There are several others: flesh to stone, Daze Monster, Otto's Dance, Hypnotic Pattern, Prismatic Ray, Prismatic Spray, Symbol of Stunning, Trap the Soul (this would be funny), Power Word: Kill (this would need a cooldown...)

Think FoM will not save you from those.

[NytCrawlr]

I have a slight problem with will saves...[snip] in ee content

I can't speak for EE content, it's just not my thing and I don't plan to run it more than just for favor purposes. But I can easily see saves and any sort of SR just not mattering in there, whereas in at least epic norm and hard such tactics are at least somewhat useful.

Missing a resistance item on my tank and she's got pretty god-like saves right now and not having much trouble with CC other than irresistible dance and that is just a 6-12 second wait.

My DPS build on the other hand is going to have a harder time building for that, but I am looking forward to the challenge.

I don't necessarily totally agree with the nerf to FoM as it stands, but if it makes people stop ignoring a save stat completely and just slotting more gear to ignore things outright because of that, then so be it.

[Ungood]

Op buff is OP. Easy button is easy. There is no fallacy in my logic simply because you disagree and decide to bring a far more hyperbolous and absolute example to the table which is completely irrelevant to the discussion of what FOM should and should not protect against.

If expectation of my gear to work as intended is wrong no matter what that gear is, then following that level of logical fallacy, anything that had functioned one way should only be a temporary situation and changes to remove it's ability to function in a manner are expected to be removed. Ergo, at some point I should expect my weapons to stop doing damage.

Just because you may support this change, does not mean you hold any claim to being logical mainly because this change is not a logical one. It is a moronic one. FoM was not OPed, it was used by players to protect themselves, no different in functionality then a player using a Hold spell to remove a mob from being a threat, or using FoD to eliminate a mob that may hurt them, or simply using Stone Skin to mitigate damage, death ward to stop level drain and death effects, or using Expeditious Retreat to simply be able to run away from a mob.

There is no sound reasoning behind this change, it is a moronic one that is born of no rational beyond the Developers want the "Nifty little bear traps" they put in their new content to be feared. They could have done this by making Bear Traps and their oh so important Drider Webs a special case, and functioned like Sulo Chairs (Which it does not work against anyway) and Poof, their Precious Bear Traps and Webs are scary again.

Now, in a point of reference, the change to FoM is to have it so that it does not stop "Non-Magical" effects, ergo, it will still stop Hold Spells and other means of magical immobilize effects, sorry if that knocked people off the happy horse, but this change is nothing more then "Making their Bear Traps and Webs mean something".

So it's just an annoyance factor at this point, Now is just a question of what things in Ebberon it will screw up, will we now slide all over the floor in the Blue Dragon room in Tor, will Grease effect it. Will the Dog Puke in LoB mess us up, etc, etc.

So, Spare me ridiculous notions of FoM being OPed or any such nonsense because it stopped hold, it's still going to stop hold as far as the description goes. But none the less, it's changes like this that that do not build the game up, they just annoy and frustrate the players.


Added: Below:

All this hyperbole on the forums about "worthless" items and "unplayable" classes is simply a myth. Expecting to be able to build a 90 str toon that can bench press a pack mule with combined mental stats that would not even support walking and chewing gum at the same time, and have it be immune to any spell and premium abilities of many mobs that can stop it in its tracks simply due to one buff is hilarious.

This made me laugh so hard Chai. No really. I laughed. I have no idea why or where you have formed this axe to grind against min-max barb builds.

But the fact that you are citing your dismay with such builds now as justification for this change is rather humorous to be honest.

Allow me a moment to walk you though this, so you can appreciate what this change really does.

You see, Web (Strength and Reflex), and the Bear Traps (I think Strength and Reflex as well) are the main culprits for this revision. Much like the last revision that made FoM not stop Earth Grave (reflex) save, favor more survivalist builds, like Barbs, Monks, and Pallies who get a good all around base save and can get very high strength stats.

What does this mean?

Well.....with the new change, that Min Maxed melee Barb, who has a will save of just over plant level is still going to be protected against hold, paralyze and pretty much every effect that targets his weakest stat, so he enjoys the immunity that FoM offered that build the most, along with having pretty much top saves against what FoM is no longer protecting against.

Take a moment and let that sink it, allow it to slowly dawn on you that as shocking as it may be, the Min-Maxed Super Strength Barbs builds are actually not getting hurt by this, the next question should be: who is really getting hurt?

Well, allow me to show you. You see that cleric there, who has a great will save, could shrug off pretty much any mind effect known to man, but by virtue of the class has a very poor reflex save and typically a strength score that has yet to break 25? yah.

So as I said, whatever axe you have to grind against melee builds, you can put it away for this discussion and go wave your hate banner someplace else, they are not the one's getting hurt the most this time around.

[Ungood]

Speaking of fallacies....

*Sigh*

I am going to have to ask that if you are going to quote me, quote me in context. Thanks for playing and please drive through.

[Voldomar]

I know this will sound harsh, but based on the ( lacking ) description given in the release notes, it appears that very little thought was put into this before the green light.

IMHO FoM should have been tweaked to work more or less like this: 100% protection vs magical effects and slippery surfaces ( regardless of their nature ) AND, since almost all the effects that impede movements offer recurring saves after the first one is failed, FoM should grant auto success on recurring saves ( you could still fail the first save and be held in place for few seconds, but fom will "free" you as soon as the recurring save kicks in ).

That would be less frustrating and at the same time it does not invalidate a whole bunch of effects ( being held even for a few second is still deadly )

[WruntJunior]

I know this will sound harsh, but based on the ( lacking ) description given in the release notes, it appears that very little thought was put into this before the green light.

IMHO FoM should have been tweaked to work more or less like this: 100% protection vs magical effects and slippery surfaces ( regardless of their nature ) AND, since almost all the effects that impede movements offer recurring saves after the first one is failed, FoM should grant auto success on recurring saves ( you could still fail the first save and be held in place for few seconds, but fom will "free" you as soon as the recurring save kicks in ).

That would be less frustrating and at the same time it does not invalidate a whole bunch of effects ( being held even for a few second is still deadly )

This would still be a sucky nerf, but definitely an acceptable one.

[Chai]

Well, my ranger runs around with 30 will save, and i remember being "nuked" in the new quests on epic hard with disco balls, which i was still failing a considerable amount of time, and power world stuns, luckly i had fom to avoid the mass holds that would also probably hold me a lot.

Will we have to roll 40+ will save toons now just to do not get totaly imobilized by casters? to reach such numbers is not only a matter of starting stats and equips, class play a big part too.

And why they only cast holds?

There are several others: flesh to stone, Daze Monster, Otto's Dance, Hypnotic Pattern, Prismatic Ray, Prismatic Spray, Symbol of Stunning, Trap the Soul (this would be funny), Power Word: Kill (this would need a cooldown...)

Think FoM will not save you from those.

There are now exceptional AND insightful stats, as well as +7 resistance dropping like rain in the random loot gen pool. Alot of those CC spells would actually be blocked by prot from evil if cast from an evil source.

Seems to me like each mob has a small repitoire of spells they cast, and some spam the same 3-4 spells. Alot of those clerics are casting firestorm, hold, cometfall, and divine punishment.

[countfitz]

FoM is just one of the things that translates poorly from PnP to MMO. There was a reason that the game didn't launch with the spell, and FoM was only available on raid loot, and they only added it in a moment of weakness when subs were low. A **** good reason.

Immobilization is one of the FEW nail-biting moments in this game. You nerf FoM, you buff excitement.

Lets see. There was a time in this game that frustrating mechanics (a.k.a. being unable to do anything strategic to stop mobs from immobilizing you, while you stare at your computer bored and more likely looking for a new game) made it so that almost nobody was playing the game. The devs, in there (at that time) brilliance fixed the problem, people came back to the game and brought droves of friends, and excitement ensued. Now they're going back to the days when they had almost no subscribers.

Parvo will be happy. Maybe they can bring back leveling stones, death XP penalties, and non-expiring blindness and disease? That'll buff excitement.

[Chai]

If expectation of my gear to work as intended is wrong no matter what that gear is, then following that level of logical fallacy, anything that had functioned one way should only be a tempaory situation and changes to remove it's ability to function in a manner are expected to be removed. Ergo, at some point I should expect my weapons to stop doing damage.

This is a classic reductio ad absurdum case scenario, only instead of actually understanding the degree of the situation, the example you posted is a completely hyperbolous absurd example - which is fine right up to and until you try to equate the adjustment of the spell to stuff just not functioning alltogether.

Just because you may support this change, does not mean you hold any claim to being logical mainly because this change is not a logical one. It is a moronic one. FoM was not OPed, it was used by players to protect themselves, no different in functionality then a player using a Hold spell to remove a mob from being a threat, or using FoD to eliminate a mob that may hurt them, or simply using Stone Skin to mitigate damage, death ward to stop level drain and death effects, or using Expeditious Retreat to simply be able to run away from a mob.

Sorry, my opinion being different than yours on the issue does not equate to your opinion being logical and everyone who disagrees being moronic or lacking understanding of the issue simply because you decree this often and loudly. This is why these discussions do not get taken seriously. The minute someone comes into it with a different opinion, they are rediculed, piled on, and accused of not being logical.

The buff was overpowered. It allowed completely min maxed 100% offense 0% defense toons to metagame past anything and everything that could immobilize them, up to and including some of the premier abilities of raid bosses.

There is no sound reasoning behind this change, it is a moronic one that is born of no rational beyond the Developers want the "Nifty little bear traps" they put in their new content to be feared. They could have done this by making Bear Traps and their oh so important Drider Webs a special case, and functioned like Sulo Chairs (Which it does not work against anyway) and Poof, their Precious Bear Traps and Webs are scary again.

Again, equating your disagreement to the change as the change lacking reasoning, in and of itself lacks objectivity. When the devs see this kind of casual dismissal of any opposing opinion on a regular basis, they dont even feel the need to justify moves they make to anyone anymore.

Now, in a point of reference, the change to FoM is to have it so that it does not stop "Non-Magical" effects, ergo, it will still stop Hold Spells and other means of magical immobilize effects, sorry if that knocked people off the happy horse, but this change is nothing more then "Making their Bear Traps and Webs mean something".

So it's just an annoyance factor at this point, Now is just a question of what things in Ebberon it will screw up, will we now slide all over the floor in the Blue Dragon room in Tor, will Grease effect it. Will the Dog Puke in LoB mess us up, etc, etc.

So, Spare me ridiculous notions of FoM being OPed or any such nonsense because it stopped hold, it's still going to stop hold as far as the description goes. But none the less, it's changes like this that that do not build the game up, they just annoy and frustrate the players.


Added: Below:



This made me laugh so hard Chai. No really. I laughed. I have no idea why or where you have formed this axe to grind against min-max barb builds.

But the fact that you are citing your dismay with such builds now as justification for this change is rather humorous to be honest.

Allow me a moment to walk you though this, so you can appricate what this change really does.

You see, Web (Strength and Reflex), and the Bear Traps (I think Strength and Reflex as well) are the main culprits for this revision. Much like the last revision that made FoM not stop Earth Grave (reflex) save, favor more survivalist builds, like Barbs, Monks, and Pallies who get a good all around base save and can get very high strength stats.

What does this mean?

However with the new change, that Min Maxed melee Barb, who has a will save of just over plant level is still going to be protected against hold, paralyze and pretty much every effect that targets his weakest stat, so he enjoys the immunity that FoM offered that build the most, along with having pretty much top saves against what FoM is no longer protecting against.

Take a moment and let that sink it, allow it to slowly dawn on you that as shocking as it may be, the Min-Maxed Super Strength Barbs builds are actually not getting hurt by this, the now the question should be asked: who is really getting hurt?

Well, allow me to show you. You see that cleric there, who has a great will save, could shrug off pretty much any mind effect known to man, but by virtue of the class has a very poor reflex save and typically a strength score that has yet to break 25? yah.

So as I said, whatever axe you have to grind against melee builds, you can put it away for this discussion and go wave your hate banner someplace else, they are not the one's getting hurt the most this time around.
[IMG]chrome://dictionarytip/skin/dtipIconHover.png[/IMG]

Id love to have a discussion on the issue, but casual dismissal of everything that disagrees with your stance as not having logic, personally biased against some build or another, and accusations of being a hater are not a discussion at all. The sheer amount of this type of arguing with personal insults rather than objective factual information only really contribute to one result: Not being taken seriously. The more it is repeated, the more people read it, shrug, and move on. The only case being made here is to take these kinds of remarks even less seriously in the future.

In the future understand this. From now on, each time you post such accusations I will report the post. Theres no discussion happening here with this type of personal banter happening each time you reply.

[countfitz]

All aboard the Slippery Slope!

I get it! A pun! Despite you being wrong, +1!

See, it's not a slippery slope because IT'S THE LAST IN A LONG LINE OF THE EXACT SAME THING HAPPINING.

You "could" have said that this was a slippery slope argument when were were ranting about it years ago.

For instance, when we complained about the FIRST FoM nerf. Or Poison/disease immunities. Or any of another hundred changes along these lines. Now it's no longer a slippery slope argument.

But for the pun of using "slippery slope" in a forum argument about how grease/icy effects will completely **** you up in game and give you no strategy to counter it, +1!

[eris2323]

I confess; I run without buffs a lot, and don't play my divines so much.

Did freedom of movement ever prevent ottos irresistable dance?

Cause uh... I just got hit three times with it in Kings Forest, with FOM running...

Don't recall that happening before, but I can't really recall. Anyone?

[Chai]

I confess; I run without buffs a lot, and don't play my divines so much.

Did freedom of movement ever prevent ottos irresistable dance?

Cause uh... I just got hit three times with it in Kings Forest, with FOM running...

Don't recall that happening before, but I can't really recall. Anyone?

FOM never prevented ottos. Protection from evil might if its cast by an evil source.

[eris2323]

FOM never prevented ottos. Protection from evil might if its cast by an evil source.

Ah; thank you; seems weird that in 1500+ slayers out there, I never was made to dance before, then 3 times today....

I usually do run with protection from evil, let me try that and see if that blocks it; wasn't running it today

[Chai]

I get it! A pun! Despite you being wrong, +1!

See, it's not a slippery slope because IT'S THE LAST IN A LONG LINE OF THE EXACT SAME THING HAPPINING.

You "could" have said that this was a slippery slope argument when were were ranting about it years ago.

For instance, when we complained about the FIRST FoM nerf. Or Poison/disease immunities. Or any of another hundred changes along these lines. Now it's no longer a slippery slope argument.

But for the pun of using "slippery slope" in a forum argument about how grease/icy effects will completely **** you up in game and give you no strategy to counter it, +1!

It is a slippery slope argument, we are just at the end of the slope. Too late!!!

We are now looking back up at the top of the slope from the bottom wondering how this all happened.

[WruntJunior]

FOM never prevented ottos. Protection from evil might if its cast by an evil source.

Prot from evil isn't even supposed to block greater command, and I can confirm has not blocked otto's at any point of which I'm aware.

Edit: I run Prot from Evil a lot while leveling as it DOES block greater command, and have still gotten danced multiple times with it on.

[Truga]

Only undead forms block dance.