14.1: Freedom of Movement

[Missing_Minds]

Grease might work on mobs if they allowed heighten to work on it, but like a few other spells it doesn't so its useless.

No. The only thing heighten would do is change the DC to make them fall, it has NOTHING to do what so ever with the following:

Will grease slow down their movement like it does us? To date it never has.
Will grease make it impossible for them to run uphill like it does us? To date it never has.

This change would make grease actually useful. Hence why they never will, and why Eladrin calls it a "Party Buff."

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Oh no.. FoM won't work against Grease anymore? What a shame =(


Mwahaha.. *readies clickies*

Actually, that is FoM's most powerful effect!

Not Grease clickies from pther players, but stuff like Sleet Storm from monsters. And a ton of other stuff that prevents movement.

Seriously, when you can't move, you die.

If this is what they are nerfing, I hate it!
That is a serious nerf!

and will totally screw my playstyle.

If moving away to safetly is not an option, then I guess I had better reroll with max AC, HP, and beg someone to heal me... just like everyone else.

Cause now that is truly the only way to play this game.

[BOgre]

Last dozen posts or so have hit it. FoM is being smashed with a sledge instead of tweaked with precision screwdriver. Same with Neutralize Poison.

I can understand the need to address the problems with these spells trivializing enemy spells. FoM and NP have become a standard buff, lasting the entire quest, and negating half the challenge of many quests. Negating the effectiveness of half so many enemies that we should find menacing.

But instead of this sledgehammer approach, it seems to me that there may have been better ways to go. #/rest and limited duration would have been one way to go for FoM. Imagine if your group only had access to 2 or 3 FoMs per rest? One each from the Ranger, Soul and Bard for example. You know there are half a dozen earth ellies between you and the next shrine, plus a fairly big fight with 3 or 4 Summoners. You wouldn't be able to FoM the whole party at the entrance. You'd have to pick and choose who gets it and when. It amounts to a nerf and people would cry, but the spell would still be useful. It would promote team play, strategy, planning. And although it's just as powerful as before, it doesn't trivialize earth ellies, water, icy ground, etc.

Same goes for Poison/Disease. There are ways to make the new poisons/diseases (and old ones too!) more of a threat without destroying Warforged Immunity and Diamond Body (which is a slap in the face).

Sorry devs; I'm not a fan of your solutions this time 'round.

[Aashrym]

If the problem is that FOM is too readily available, cut the duration or increase the SP. It isn't like there are a bazillion items that grant it.

I'm not sure why that approach hasn't happened. It's not like it wasn't suggested repeatedly. I think the same could be said for deathward for that matter.

Players would still complain about it regardless.

[Ungood]

These little, pointless, unnecessary changes, done for the sake of it, are those that irk me the most. Even more so when disregarding the ruleset this game is based on, does not improve the fun.

This sums up my feelings eloquently. Thank you.

[Faent]

Even more so when disregarding the ruleset this game is based on, does not improve the fun.

Developer: WoW made a lot of money. Let's leave D&D behind and be like WoW! Maybe I'll make money. Hey folks, it's still D&D, right? I mean, we have the Forgotten Realms campaign setting now! So it's still D&D. Just with WoW rules instead of D&D rules! You like that, right? You'll still believe this is D&D, won't you? Because the setting is called Forgotten Realms!? Right? We can call it Forgotten Realms while converting to WoW rules, and everyone will believe the game is based on D&D? So we get the best of both worlds, right? Right? Please? I just want to make money. Please help me.

[MRMechMan]

Meh.

As long as they keep freedom of groovement I'll be happy.

[DocBenway]

Meh.

As long as they keep freedom of groovement I'll be happy.

It will only work in the Free James Brown quest, and requires Chipmunk Funk as a component.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

How bout an actual developer tell us...

Exactly WHAT actual game Effects fall in the catagory of what Freedom of Movement DOES work on for a change....

But I suppose it's too much to ask....

I am sure they don't even know...

They just turn a few switches to "off" and have no idea what is still "on"

How bout just remove the ELFIN spells from the Lolth-Durned Game instead of constantly elfin with us and elfin more s up in the mean time?

Or....

Maybe...

Get ur heads out of your lolths and DESIGN some NEW effects that currently DON'T have an easy fix from D&D LORE.

Kinda like the Force Shots from the Cannons in the House C content...

No NO NOOOOO we can't do it easy....lets change old favorites and ELF some S up in the mean time...

FFS

[danotmano1998]

How bout an actual developer tell us...

Exactly WHAT actual game Effects fall in the catagory of what Freedom of Movement DOES work on for a change....

Yes, that would be nice, but then we could cry "BUG!!" when it doesn't work where it's supposed to. This way, players can experience all kinds of havok and have no idea if it's WAI or not.

I can't help but wonder if this is just a "Aww, the heck with it, it's broke, just release a vague statement in the release notes. It's SO much easier to just say it's WAI than to actually fix it, right?"

[Blank_Zero]

Hold Person....and of course, by the time you get the spell, you've stopped fighting the kobolds who spam it at you, so there won't be any purpose in ever casting it at all.

I completely disagree.

There isn't a single quest in the xpac where, if I forget to ask for FoM or don't wear my Kundarak Delving Boots, I don't have some mob hit me with Hold Person.

There's actually so much of it going on, I might soon become a meme elsewhere.

[Missing_Minds]

Granted this change also means that

a) those chains that Sulu and others throw? Those are magical in nature.
b) spell traps in the Underdark and such are utterly magical in nature.
c) cast grease is magical in nature while say from traps/iron defenders are not.

So we lose some effects, iron defender pets that grease are now NOT worth the feat necessary and should be a freebie under certain conditions due to the INTENTIONAL griefing it does to a party, but...

Sulu and such just lost a great tool they had, and the spell traps in the Underdark just lost a big chunk of their bite.

And yes, FoM should still protects you from arcanes casting grease as well as grease clickies. Turbine... you made this change, you better follow through with it correctly. After all you now have a 1-800 number, expect it to be abused with complaints. Warn your phone-able departments.

[Chai]

Pretty soon people will have to roll up characters that actually have double digit will saves at cap, instead of covering up every single weakness caused by min maxing with spells that blanket out half the list of spells from an entire school of magic.

[Charononus]

If moving away to safetly is not an option, then I guess I had better reroll with max AC, HP, and beg someone to heal me... just like everyone else.

Cause now that is truly the only way to play this game.

Good luck with that, from the limited sample size of people I play with and people on the forums a lot are saying that they aren't playing their fvs/clr till the devotion nerf is reverted and or tr'ing away from divines as being a pure healbot isn't fun and that's what turbine is pushing the divine classes towards.

Fom nerf is just one more reason not to log on to a cleric or fvs imo.

[Maxtrenth]

Of course they had to nerf FoM, and poison/disease immunities, cause having them work the same would get rid of a lot of the drow attacks/effects and make them less of a challenge. nevermind the CR46 mobs in Epic Elite, if they can't earthgrab/grapple/trip/poison you they aren't a challenge /sarcasm off.......not a fan of the changes......

[Ungood]

Pretty soon people will have to roll up characters that actually have double digit will saves at cap, instead of covering up every single weakness caused by min maxing with spells that blanket out half the list of spells from an entire school of magic.

Yah because heaven forbid that our gear and buffs actually do anything to protect us.

[bigolbear]

well theres 4 ways this can go as far as i can tell.

1. fom will continue to work as it does currently (just like pen and paper, except not protecting you from grappels) and the devs will add more grapple effects - i rather suspect the drider thing is a non magical grapple, id expect SOME spiders to generate non magical webs, but if so id also expect the dcs to be lower.

2. foms gona get a massive nerfing and all conjured effects and natural abilites (web, grease, bad weather for example) will bypass it.

3. fom will be changed to provide imuntiy to magical impediments and a + bonus to save vs non magical.

4. what im realy hoping for is grapples get added to the game engine fully - mobs and players being able to engage in grappling, it could add a whole new dimension to tactical combat. I for one always veiwed FOM in pen and paper as being way too over powered for the lvl of the spell and have to say i agree that it should only prevent magical effects, it was a cheesy win button for casters to avoid being grappled.

The slipery surface thing is actualy what concerns me the most here, running on ice is iritating and there is gear that provides imunity to slipery surfaces - i dotn want to have to grind for that gear.


Devs if your listening and want input:
my ideal version of FOM would be:

duration 1 min per caster lvl, lvl 4 divine spell.
provides + 2 bonus to saves vs non magical impediments per 3 caster lvls maxing at 15 for a +10 bonus and rolling a 1 does not result in automatic failure.(examples include: stunning blow, trip, grapple, non magical weather, non magical webs produced by spiders/driders which should be visualy different from magical webs)
Provides complete imunity to spells and spell like abiliteis that impede or prevent movement including spell like effects on weapons and natural attacks, it does not however prevent spells that alter your form such as flesh to stone or freezing ice. Additonaly provides imunity to slipery surfaces.

When FOM is cast the recipient is immediatly freed from all magical and non magical forms of movement inpediment and any on going effects from these are dispelled.

Couple that with grapples being added to all players and some mobs - a base auto grant tactical feat at bab1, monks should be able to use wisdom to grapple if higher and weapon finesses should allow dex to grapple.

[Chai]

Yah because heaven forbid that our gear and buffs actually do anything to protect us.

Running around with a 6 or 8 wisdom and no will save mods and expecting to not be immobilized from time to time is hilarious. People are fully expecting metagaming to be a right, and while it is for extended periods of time, it doesnt last forever.

[Chai]

well theres 4 ways this can go as far as i can tell.

1. fom will continue to work as it does currently (just like pen and paper, except not protecting you from grappels) and the devs will add more grapple effects - i rather suspect the drider thing is a non magical grapple, id expect SOME spiders to generate non magical webs, but if so id also expect the dcs to be lower.

2. foms gona get a massive nerfing and all conjured effects and natural abilites (web, grease, bad weather for example) will bypass it.

3. fom will be changed to provide imuntiy to magical impediments and a + bonus to save vs non magical.

4. what im realy hoping for is grapples get added to the game engine fully - mobs and players being able to engage in grappling, it could add a whole new dimension to tactical combat. I for one always veiwed FOM in pen and paper as being way too over powered for the lvl of the spell and have to say i agree that it should only prevent magical effects, it was a cheesy win button for casters to avoid being grappled.

My understanding of it is option 1 - but I dont see them adding grapples for every player. Minotaur have been in the game for 5-6 years now and they havent added bull rushes yet, which are a standard D&D melee tactic.

The slipery surface thing is actualy what concerns me the most here, running on ice is iritating and there is gear that provides imunity to slipery surfaces - i dotn want to have to grind for that gear.

There are tier one challenge items that anyone who has farmed challenges for XP probably has enough ingredients to buy. It would be used only during times that immunity to slippery surfaces is needed.

[slimkj]

If moving away to safetly is not an option, then I guess I had better reroll with max AC, HP, and beg someone to heal me... just like everyone else.

This, although not how I would put it, is my primary gripe with this change and others like it (and perhaps more to come?). I like to play for survivability and defense-oriented, as when you lowman/solo that is more important if you don't want to waste your evening. With every change like this, a little of that self-sufficiency is eroded and I am a little less happy with the game.