Devs, Let's Talk: Healing

[Razcar]

How many screenshots did we see of FvS solo TODs over the years. More than all other classes combined. Most classes are zero.

What the best players in the game do is not reflective of the rest 99.999.. %. If they wouldn't had soloed e.g. TOD on an FvS they would had done exactly the same thing on another class. People see these guys, see what they use, and then make the incorrect assumption that the class they've chosen is OP.

Nota bene: I'm not saying some classes are edit: not more versatile and more powerful than others. But that certain players that do amazing feats does not reflect on the class they are using, but instead on their skill and dedication. Lance Armstrong would beat me on a kids' tricycle, Senna in a soapbox car. It's never the tools that makes the craftsman (even though it helps the egos of us mere mortals to blame those...).

[Chai]

This here is proof that being here 6 years is no proof of knowledge.

Crit healing spells are worthless. They either overheal when not needed, or never land when needed. If you think relying on random crits to come through at just the right time and saving the day is a good idea, you have already failed the quest. Relying on sheer dumb luck for healing is just that: dumb.

Hendrik is one of the better healers Ive seen play. He knows how to get 100% out of his class without having to "rely" on anything resembling luck.

What youre doing here is is playing the worst case scenario card in order to say crits are worthless. A player who is specced into crits can have a 21% chance after AP/standard gear are taken into account. A good player knows how to not overheal for the mana spent, and if the spell crits when the SAME AMOUNT of mana is spent, then it tops those people off it crit on. If you have a chance to spend the same mana and get a multiplied result, why would you not take it?

[Antiguo]

What really gets me, and what I believe ultimately motivated Turbine to swing the nerfbat at casters in general, are all the empty headed melee oriented punks who were constantly crying on the forums and elsewhere about 'arcanes are too OP, they can kill all the trash before we can take a swing". "Divines farting BB's are OP, we spend all our time chasing stuff down and can't have fun killing it".

Melee had their day in the spotlight at low levels. Non casters are MEANT to be more powerful than casters at low levels.
Spellcasters of ALL types are meant to be near GODLIKE by the time they hit level 20, and melee are there as bodyguards / meatshields, and for the boss fights.

In short: Everyone needs to QYB about other classes and whether they're OP, because all it does is start the nerfbat swinging.
Turbine, please make healing the same as any other spellcasting, and let it get 100% of potency / devotion!

Every class should be viable at the same level at end game, your argument is a fallacy.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Hendrik is one of the better healers Ive seen play. He knows how to get 100% out of his class without having to "rely" on anything resembling luck.

What youre doing here is is playing the worst case scenario card in order to say crits are worthless. A player who is specced into crits can have a 21% chance after AP/standard gear are taken into account. A good player knows how to not overheal for the mana spent, and if the spell crits when the SAME AMOUNT of mana is spent, then it tops those people off it crit on. If you have a chance to spend the same mana and get a multiplied result, why would you not take it?

I've never built any healer for crit, reliance on chance when having party memebers live in your hands is not a good idea in my book. And if you can heal just fine without crit then they are mostly a waste of AP/gear.

Of course this is my plays style people play however they want.

[Chai]

What the best players in the game do is not reflective of the rest 99.999.. %. If they wouldn't had soloed e.g. TOD on an FvS they would had done exactly the same thing on another class. People see these guys, see what they use, and then make the incorrect assumption that the class they've chosen is OP.

Nota bene: I'm not saying some classes are more versatile and more powerful than others. But that certain players do amazing feats does not reflect on the class they are using, but instead on their skill and dedication. Lance Armstrong would beat me on a kids tricycle, Senna in a soapbox car. It's never the tools that makes the craftsman (even though it helps the egos of us mere mortals to blame those...).

Id believe this if 90% of all TOD solos werent FvS. Some people gravitate to what is OP, then are condescending to others who do not. The other healing nerf thread has a couple of those being pretty overt about non tank melee being a waste of space that should not have made it out of the harbor.

The analogy doesnt apply here. Melee werent accomplishing the things FvS were, and this was consistantly demonstrated for years now. Zones that designed to require 12 people to beat were being one and two manned with FvS time and again. If the analogies are true, where are these same peoples posts in the accomplishments forums on their barbarians, fighters, and rogues soloing TOD and eDQ previous to the update? They dont exist. Certainly they dont play just the one FvS right? Its the same player playign different classes, they would never even think of attempting the same feats. In DDO, the tools do matter, even when in the hands of the same player.

[Thrudh]

Well duh. These difficulties are (with some rare exceptions) a joke now. What's your point? I used to have to worry about tactics and such if I wanted to go solo epic content. Now I just waltz into Epic Hard and blitz through it (with some rare exceptions) like it's Casual Gianthold or Vale. So you can heal this weaksauce content? So what?

No, you blitz through Epic hard like it's Hard Gianthold or Vale. You can blitz those on hard at level, can't you?

Why would level 20-25 quests be any different from level 1-19 quests?

[DeafeningWhisper]

Every class should be viable at the same level at end game, your argument is a fallacy.

Viable doesn't have to mean equal thou, or the game is not called DDO anymore but Gauntlet.

[Hendrik]

The best crit chance you can have for healing spells is just over 20% (21% iirc). If you're relying on crits, you only have ~1/5 chance of your spells doing enough. For a mass, that means the majority of the group won't get it (and since, as has been said, masses are cast because one or more people crosses the thresh-hold for needing a heal, chances are rather good that they won't get it). For a single-target heal, you're casting a healing spell because the person is low enough that you can't get them back to a safe thresh-hold (in some cases, back to full) without a more potent heal...in this case, if you need a crit for the heal to matter...you're in trouble anyways.

This is basic healing knowledge. If you're really healing epic elites, you either have an amazing party pulling you through or you're trolling us...relying on crits off mass cures is a good way to fail quests like normal shroud.

If you're serious about relying on healing crits...two things. 1) I'm glad you're not on Thelanis, according to MyDDO. 2) You might want to learn how to heal before acting like you know everything about healing.

Hey bud, YOU'RE the one that started using the word "rely" on crits, NOT I.

Might want to go back and re-read what you have posted and what I have replied to and said.

[Auralana7214]

Whats being nerfed is overkill healing and overkill light damage. Clerics are better at positive and worse at light, while FvS are better at light and worse at positive. Trying to outline the cleric class as the victim is cute, because they really arent far behind FvS in power. Im still waiting for "will somebody please think of the druids!!"

The question in my original quote was "why" - which I answered.

Technically clerics are better at both if they have the Radiant Servant Pre. They do not come close to the power of an arcane though. Any warforged cold savant can pop 3 dots, use a reconstruct spell for the same benefits as a heal spell, and they are still technically immune to posion, disease, negative energy, etc etc.

If the wings of a fvs are the issue then become an air savant! Now you get 2 dots (black dragon bolt doesn't get a good bonus but its not as good anyhow). The amount of attack spells you can muster is still far larger than any divine can choose from.

The divine nerf has nothing to do with the power of the class. It seems like it was some sort of balance against healing massive tanks? Scratch that . . . we don't really know what the nerf was about because they never said! Stop trolling.

[Hendrik]

The full line of critical enhancements is not useful or necessary. Besides the reasons mentioned by the previous poster, for situations like eDQ or eVelah where the party is together, the pacing of heals is determined by the person with the lowest health. If 8 people need healing, and one maxes with a crit - it is largely irrelevant. For healing solitary targets, like a Horoth tank, you will purposely keep the target above a certain range (i.e. 500-600HP insurance for Horoth's disintegrate) so you deliberately avoid having to rely on a lucky panic critical.

As a guildy, I apologize Hen, but I remember a couple of raids that wiped largely because you opted for Eschew Materials over Quicken. Regardless of what feats you have now, I'm fairly certain you're the most devoted Turbine white knight that I know, and people judge what you post accordingly.

The spellpower overhaul was supposed to simplify calculations. The exceptions for divines are counterproductive to that end. The documentation for the exact numerical reduction for divines on various spells is not well defined, and can easily be overlooked. It was only mentioned in passing in the release notes after several threads asking if reduced healing capacity was bugged or WAI. Why these exceptions target divines and not arcane magic classes remains mysterious and the devs do not seem willing to explain their motives. I imagine people would take this better if there was a well-reasoned transparent explanation.

In another thread, I mentioned that with the spellpower conversion, potency, devotion, etc. items are no longer restricted to spell levels. For example, the Epic Shining Crest of St. Markus had Improved Devotion VIII (30%) which did not apply to the level 9 Mass Heal. Now that same item is +78 Devotion, which gives 78% improvement on all healing spells. While this may be a buff, Amrath clickies were nerfed heavily, so I consider it a wash. Regardless, why the devs singled out devotion and radiance over anything arcane is bewildering and nonsensical.

Considering that Hen plays his cleric anonymously, I think he would agree that in the pug scene, the dearth of clerics and divines in public LFMs could use a little positive attention to make them more appealing to play outside of a fixed group.

Glad you remember something from over two years ago, about the same time since you last grouped with the Guild or me, but you have it a little bassakwards. Was ON my CLR talking about Eschew for my WIZ and how I enjoyed it. It was Quicken I would not take at the time, nor today FYI. Heavens forbid someone tries something new instead of following the heard.



What status is your CLR? Anon or public?

And let 'em judge all they want. I have a game to play, a Guild to Heal, and far more important things to do.

And as always, with full respect pal.

[Antiguo]

Viable doesn't have to mean equal thou, or the game is not called DDO anymore but Gauntlet.

Define "equal", equal in "same tactics, streng, weakness and in fact all aspects of the gameplay?" HELL NO; equal in relative power whit the pendulum swiming to one class or other depending on the situation but not so much? DEF. YES

[Razcar]

The analogy doesnt apply here. Melee werent accomplishing the things FvS were, and this was consistantly demonstrated for years now. Zones that designed to require 12 people to beat were being one and two manned with FvS time and again. If the analogies are true, where are these same peoples posts in the accomplishments forums on their barbarians, fighters, and rogues soloing TOD and eDQ previous to the update? They dont exist. Certainly they dont play just the one FvS right? Its the same player playign different classes, they would never even think of attempting the same feats. In DDO, the tools do matter, even when in the hands of the same player.

I had missed a "not" in my post - I know that soloing TOD on, for example, a rogue would had been way harder than on an FvS. Of course. But the best players would had soloed TOD on something else if there wouldn't had been an FvS in the game. FvS'es are powerful, but saying that they should be nerfed because they are used by really good players soloing is not fair - these guys do what they do because they are skilled and spend loads of time and resources practicing and planning, not because of the FvS class.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik is one of the better healers Ive seen play. He knows how to get 100% out of his class without having to "rely" on anything resembling luck.

What youre doing here is is playing the worst case scenario card in order to say crits are worthless. A player who is specced into crits can have a 21% chance after AP/standard gear are taken into account. A good player knows how to not overheal for the mana spent, and if the spell crits when the SAME AMOUNT of mana is spent, then it tops those people off it crit on. If you have a chance to spend the same mana and get a multiplied result, why would you not take it?

Thank you for the kind words Chai.

[tasebro]

Define "equal", equal in "same tactics, streng, weakness and in fact all aspects of the gameplay?" HELL NO; equal in relative power whit the pendulum swiming to one class or other depending on the situation but not so much? DEF. YES

The equality that must be maintained is that each player must be allowed equal *access* to make a contribution to quest completion.
Each Class has
1. essential "primary" role--area of contribution with strong synergy;
2. "secondary" role--area of contribution with moderate synergy;
and sometimes
3. an "auxiliary" role--area of contribution minimal synergy.
The varying power levels in each role *ought* to be determined my player choice in terms of trade-offs: building in a little more of "this" in trade off for a little less of "that" in the build.

The exception to this being the recent 50% nerf on divine casting, which arbitrarily *denies full access* to the player of said divine caster, instead limiting the player to *half* access, in order to prop up the lowest common denominator.
By nerfing divine casters by 50%, the result is that player contribution with *all* roles are devalued by 50% across the board, this segregates divine casters as second rate in terms of contribution potential.

[Chai]

Technically clerics are better at both if they have the Radiant Servant Pre. They do not come close to the power of an arcane though. Any warforged cold savant can pop 3 dots, use a reconstruct spell for the same benefits as a heal spell, and they are still technically immune to posion, disease, negative energy, etc etc.

Nerp. FvS are attaining higher light damage numbers.

Arcane have seen their nerfs over the years as well.

If the wings of a fvs are the issue then become an air savant! Now you get 2 dots (black dragon bolt doesn't get a good bonus but its not as good anyhow). The amount of attack spells you can muster is still far larger than any divine can choose from.

Soloing raids as an accomplishment is not about quantity of spells. Its about efficiency of mana usage.

Soloing horoth - triple stack DP + blade barriers + shoulder canon -vs- cold and lightning 3 stack dot? Maybe...

Soloing eDQ - triple stack DP + blade barriers + shoulder canon -vs- cold DOT and firewalls - advantage FvS.

The divine nerf has nothing to do with the power of the class. It seems like it was some sort of balance against healing massive tanks? Scratch that . . . we don't really know what the nerf was about because they never said! Stop trolling.

It has everything to do with the power of the abilities of the class.

The fact that I disagree with you, and clearly understand the reason why this is all being retooled doesnt constitute trolling. Ive seen this "disagreement with me = trolling" arguement delivered quite a few times on these boards - and this stance is vastly incorrect, each and every time.

[WruntJunior]

Hey bud, YOU'RE the one that started using the word "rely" on crits, NOT I.

Might want to go back and re-read what you have posted and what I have replied to and said.

Maybe you should re-read what you posted that I have replied to...especially if you have a saved copy of the post that vanished into thin air...of the posts I can still see and re-read, you may want to especially take another look at this one:

Yea, very important part bolded.

I wouldn't want to "rely" (your word) on crits either with only 1 in each line. I would expect you to fail.

Your just a melee character that has some healing spells slotted - thats all.

Sorry.

Back to healing more EE's, later.

As your other post is gone and it's been hours since I read the post (and I hardly bother with committing stupid comments on the forums to memory, which I apparently thought it was one way or another), and simply going off what I can see you have posted in this thread, it's easy for me to reach my conclusions.

Glad you remember something from over two years ago, about the same time since you last grouped with the Guild or me, but you have it a little bassakwards. Was ON my CLR talking about Eschew for my WIZ and how I enjoyed it. It was Quicken I would not take at the time, nor today FYI. Heavens forbid someone tries something new instead of following the heard.

An honest good luck to you with concentration checks, though...monsters hit very hard in the new content on epic elite (a guildie of mine was failing concentration checks regularly enough with his comletionist sorc...and that character has a higher concentration than any character of mine has had in any skill). Would love to do that on my FvS for the extra feat, but concentration doesn't go high enough for melee FvS to get away with no concentration if they intend to heal the party.

[Auralana7214]

Ive seen this "disagreement with me = trolling" arguement delivered quite a few times on these boards...

I think they're trying to tell you something...

[Chai]

I had missed a "not" in my post - I know that soloing TOD on, for example, a rogue would had been way harder than on an FvS. Of course. But the best players would had soloed TOD on something else if there wouldn't had been an FvS in the game. FvS'es are powerful, but saying that they should be nerfed because they are used by really good players soloing is not fair - these guys do what they do because they are skilled and spend loads of time and resources practicing and planning, not because of the FvS class.

Yes, and those other classes people did solo it on ALSO got their fair share of the nerf bat.

Im not saying that they should be nerfed because they are used by really good players soloing.

Im saying they are being nerfed because its been clearly, repeatedly, and publicly demonstrated that this class is OP.

The fact that people are acting surprised is the only thing odd here.

I dont support nerfs. What I am doing is observing that the accomplishment threads are loaded with divine casters soloing some of the toughest things this game had to offer over the years, and now people are acting all surprised when their power is being somewhat reduced.

[Chai]

I think they're trying to tell you something...

No, they are trying to bait me into an emotional response, which wont happen.

After one warning to refrain making personal remarks and stick to the topic at hand, I just begin reporting repetitive posts laden with said accusations. Disagreement =/= trolling. Its that simple.

[WruntJunior]

Yes, and those other classes people did solo it on ALSO got their fair share of the nerf bat.

Im not saying that they should be nerfed because they are used by really good players soloing.

Im saying they are being nerfed because its been clearly, repeatedly, and publicly demonstrated that this class is OP.

The fact that people are acting surprised is the only thing odd here.

I dont support nerfs. What I am doing is observing that the accomplishment threads are loaded with divine casters soloing some of the toughest things this game had to offer over the years, and now people are acting all surprised when their power is being somewhat reduced.

The real problem with this is that if you make FvS (and cleric) get significantly nerfed, most people who were playing the class for the power move on to another class, generally either sorc or wizard. The problem here is that when a lot of people stop playing healers, the whole game suffers. Power gamers may be fine with or without healers....but I have serious doubts to how more casual players will be, especially with casual players getting the sudden ability to get rather high in levels rather quickly relatively recently.

In all honesty, FvS were only a vessel for the skill of the players...definitely a bit OP, but that's part of the nature of the game, as FvS have high mobility, good ranged dps, and potent self-healing. It's only a matter of time until most of those FvS players that soloed difficult raids finish their TRs into an arcane and start soloing that sort of content again, really.