Devs, Let's Talk: Healing

[tasebro]

Watchya mean? Empower Heal is the Only Meta that works on Heal.

ShadowFlash

For now. They will nerf that too soon enough.

[mystafyi]

Watchya mean? Empower Heal is the Only Meta that works on Heal.

just checked again. on or off, same values.

[ShadowFlash]

just checked again. on or off, same values.

264 Empower Heal off
414 Empower Heal On

Tested using global meta's and individually set meta's. Seems to work fine for me.

ShadowFlash

[donblas]

As I said I don't care about the math, I'm not at 1 HP more or less in healing. .................................................. .................................................. ..etc, etc, /SNIP

)

Your quite long post quoted Auntjobiska but didn't address her point. She didn't complain that her healing was worse or better under U14 - she made no comparison at all in that regard. She doesn't really care.

She didn't quote math, she quoted a live test. A devotion item (which is restricted in the type of spells it affects), used 45% of its spellpower, while a potency item (useful for all spells) used 50% of its spellpower. Is devotion therefore of no use at all?

Simple point, easy answer from a Dev?

[tasebro]

Is the cleric, as a player character class, therefore of no use at all?
Are divine casters, therefore of no use at all?

I agree, it is an easy answer, and the "answer" to all of the above questions is the exact same: "affirmative"

Of course, the real answer is that nerfing divines is a really bad idea, from pretty much every reasonable perspective conceivable, so **dont nerf divines** in the first place, and in the second place, having gone ahead and done just that in U14, then answer then shifts to include a call to **reverse the U14 nerf on divine casting, thereby restoring full ability instead of half (50%) ability ASAP.**

Specifically, the nerfed items that need to be reversed includes
1. reversing the nerf on spell like abilities,
2. reversing the nerf on Heighten,
3. reversing the nerf on light spells,
4. and all other offensive divine spells as well.

[Hendrik]

My melee FvS has 3 mass cures (missing cure serious mass), and currently using ToD bard necklace as I can't currently make any of the devotion helms (at this point, I'm waiting for a new one to be released...because at this rate, by the time I can make one of the helms, better non-weapon devotion items will be available). This character has the full enhancement line for heal spell amounts, with 1 in each for crits. In fact, this character heals equal to or better than most evokers, as I have the holy symbol of lolth for implement bonus and empower healing as a feat.

Or were you not aware that, typically speaking, melee FvS were better healers than evokers due to feat restraints and less SP competition?



Important part bolded...relying on crits for healing is like asking to fail.

Yea, very important part bolded.

I wouldn't want to "rely" (your word) on crits either with only 1 in each line. I would expect you to fail.

Your just a melee character that has some healing spells slotted - thats all.

Sorry.

Back to healing more EE's, later.

[azrael4h]

Yea, very important part bolded.

I wouldn't want to "rely" (your word) on crits either with only 1 in each line. I would expect you to fail.

Your just a melee character that has some healing spells slotted - thats all.

Sorry.

Back to healing more EE's, later.

This here is proof that being here 6 years is no proof of knowledge.

Crit healing spells are worthless. They either overheal when not needed, or never land when needed. If you think relying on random crits to come through at just the right time and saving the day is a good idea, you have already failed the quest. Relying on sheer dumb luck for healing is just that: dumb.

[Bakarne]

The full line of critical enhancements is not useful or necessary. Besides the reasons mentioned by the previous poster, for situations like eDQ or eVelah where the party is together, the pacing of heals is determined by the person with the lowest health. If 8 people need healing, and one maxes with a crit - it is largely irrelevant. For healing solitary targets, like a Horoth tank, you will purposely keep the target above a certain range (i.e. 500-600HP insurance for Horoth's disintegrate) so you deliberately avoid having to rely on a lucky panic critical.

As a guildy, I apologize Hen, but I remember a couple of raids that wiped largely because you opted for Eschew Materials over Quicken. Regardless of what feats you have now, I'm fairly certain you're the most devoted Turbine white knight that I know, and people judge what you post accordingly.

The spellpower overhaul was supposed to simplify calculations. The exceptions for divines are counterproductive to that end. The documentation for the exact numerical reduction for divines on various spells is not well defined, and can easily be overlooked. It was only mentioned in passing in the release notes after several threads asking if reduced healing capacity was bugged or WAI. Why these exceptions target divines and not arcane magic classes remains mysterious and the devs do not seem willing to explain their motives. I imagine people would take this better if there was a well-reasoned transparent explanation.

In another thread, I mentioned that with the spellpower conversion, potency, devotion, etc. items are no longer restricted to spell levels. For example, the Epic Shining Crest of St. Markus had Improved Devotion VIII (30%) which did not apply to the level 9 Mass Heal. Now that same item is +78 Devotion, which gives 78% improvement on all healing spells. While this may be a buff, Amrath clickies were nerfed heavily, so I consider it a wash. Regardless, why the devs singled out devotion and radiance over anything arcane is bewildering and nonsensical.

Considering that Hen plays his cleric anonymously, I think he would agree that in the pug scene, the dearth of clerics and divines in public LFMs could use a little positive attention to make them more appealing to play outside of a fixed group.

[DarkForte]

Yea, very important part bolded.

I wouldn't want to "rely" (your word) on crits either with only 1 in each line. I would expect you to fail.

Your just a melee character that has some healing spells slotted - thats all.

Sorry.

Back to healing more EE's, later.

I'd totally sig this for the lulz if Shade's quote wasn't even more hilarious than this one. I wouldn't want to rely on your 4 in each line waste of AP crits either.

If you need crits in any situation, someone is going to die 80% of the time you need a crit (because it won't always proc). If you never need crits, you're always overhealing, and thus don't need the 18 AP spent. It's not like you can bank temporary HP through heals.

[azrael4h]

...and the devs do not seem willing to explain their motives. I imagine people would take this better if there was a well-reasoned transparent explanation.

It is (or was) the weekend. The release notes were posted latish Friday (I work overnight and thus only saw them late at any rate). Here I will say that it is more likely no dev has logged into the forums on their days off to deal with work-related concerns than any deliberate ignoring.

When I wake up around 2pm, I won't apologize for them on this if they haven't come forward with something. Especially since I linked one of these threads in a PM to Eladrin myself.

[Bakarne]

The cynical person would say that the healing reduction addendum on the release notes was deliberately timed to be seen late on Friday.

[WruntJunior]

Yea, very important part bolded.

I wouldn't want to "rely" (your word) on crits either with only 1 in each line. I would expect you to fail.

Your just a melee character that has some healing spells slotted - thats all.

Sorry.

Back to healing more EE's, later.

The best crit chance you can have for healing spells is just over 20% (21% iirc). If you're relying on crits, you only have ~1/5 chance of your spells doing enough. For a mass, that means the majority of the group won't get it (and since, as has been said, masses are cast because one or more people crosses the thresh-hold for needing a heal, chances are rather good that they won't get it). For a single-target heal, you're casting a healing spell because the person is low enough that you can't get them back to a safe thresh-hold (in some cases, back to full) without a more potent heal...in this case, if you need a crit for the heal to matter...you're in trouble anyways.

This is basic healing knowledge. If you're really healing epic elites, you either have an amazing party pulling you through or you're trolling us...relying on crits off mass cures is a good way to fail quests like normal shroud.

If you're serious about relying on healing crits...two things. 1) I'm glad you're not on Thelanis, according to MyDDO. 2) You might want to learn how to heal before acting like you know everything about healing.

[ZeebaNeighba]

Yep, something like that, I had a spellsinger healer, basically all you do is take a quick estimate, how many HP is my ally missing. If they're missing about 150-200 (these numbers can change a bit if I know my target has good heal amp) I hit them with a heal scroll or CSW. 200-250 is a tossup between CSW, CCW or a heal scroll, it depends in if I know the person has a little heal amp, how badly they need the extra few hitpoints from CCW, etc. 250+ hit points I use CCW. 400+ I use CCW for sure and only then will I start benefiting a decent amount from a crit. (I TR'd my bard and now that devotion is working on heal scrolls, I should probably start thinking of that as a much stronger heal but I no longer have any healers so I forget about it a lot ) You just use the cheapest spell you can that will fill up your ally, to save SP, and if you do it right, crits become basically useless.

Also like half of us in this thread have Shade's post in our sigs

[PNellesen]

The cynical person would say that the healing reduction addendum on the release notes was deliberately timed to be seen late on Friday.

"Cynic" is just another word for "Realist"...

[Noctus]

And if vets continue to not change their ways, they'll have to find more and more creative and nerful ways to try to get vets to move to the new playstyle that WILL be more fun for more people.



Now MY concern is that we help out the HEALERS durign this transition by providing them more BTC sp potions via all their epic end reward lists or somesuch.

If you so love the Holy Trinity (only roles: Tank, Heal, DPS) of every generic MMO out there, then go any play that, but dont try to force that down our throats here in DDO. It is boring, monodimensional, ultra-generic and decidedly not fun for most people playing here.
And you know why i know that people prefer the freedom of roles in DDO? - Because they play DDO instead of one of the dozens of Holy-Trinity-MMOs out there.


If you roll up failbuilds, because you did not do the research and just expected it will be as generically boring perdetermined as always, it is you who has to build a character that can play well in DDO, not DDO that has to change to make your build more usefull.


If you play a Divine (yes, Divine as they are called here, not Healers, and thats for a reason) and have to regularly quaff SP-Pots like its sugar candy then there is something seriously wrong with your play.
Adjust, and dont cry for the world to change around your personal prefernces.


P.S.
For your idea of how great it would be to "force all the vets to build and play differently" do some research on "New Game Enhancements" in Star Wars Galaxies and what a great success it was when they overhauled their system into more generic MMO routines.

[hit_fido]

The best crit chance you can have for healing spells is just over 20% (21% iirc). If you're relying on crits, you only have ~1/5 chance of your spells doing enough. For a mass, that means the majority of the group won't get it (and since, as has been said, masses are cast because one or more people crosses the thresh-hold for needing a heal, chances are rather good that they won't get it). For a single-target heal, you're casting a healing spell because the person is low enough that you can't get them back to a safe thresh-hold (in some cases, back to full) without a more potent heal...in this case, if you need a crit for the heal to matter...you're in trouble anyways.

If this - and as others note, "Crit healing spells are worthless", "crits become basically useless", "If you need crits in any situation, someone is going to die 80% of the time" and so on - then why are you wasting 2 AP for any critical enhancements at all?

[WruntJunior]

If this - and as others note, "Crit healing spells are worthless", "crits become basically useless", "If you need crits in any situation, someone is going to die 80% of the time" and so on - then why are you wasting 2 AP for any critical enhancements at all?

For the same reason people take skill enhancements, generally...filler so you can get higher tiers of enhancements (and especially on a 20 FvS with the clw capstone, they have the ability to occasionally save you a heal scroll, and similar reasons with aura on a cleric). Crit heals have the occasional use, but by and large, they are unreliable and not useful for general play.

Generally, if you're healing someone, your goal is to get a guarantee that they're out of the danger zone...if you are hoping for a crit, then 4/5 of the time that won't happen. However, if a crit DOES happen, it's still useful...in all honesty, though, those 2 AP would be the first to go if I can remove them and still get the enhancement set-up I want.

[tasebro]

If this - and as others note, "Crit healing spells are worthless", "crits become basically useless", "If you need crits in any situation, someone is going to die 80% of the time" and so on - then why are you wasting 2 AP for any critical enhancements at all?

Cleric Radiant Servant II Requires All of: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I, Cleric Prayer of Life I, Cleric Radiant Servant I

Also major healing lore items generate spellcrit.

[Postumus]

This here is proof that being here 6 years is no proof of knowledge.

Crit healing spells are worthless. They either overheal when not needed, or never land when needed. If you think relying on random crits to come through at just the right time and saving the day is a good idea, you have already failed the quest. Relying on sheer dumb luck for healing is just that: dumb.

Interesting. Do you feel similarly regarding weapon crits? Never land when needed, or overkill when not needed? And yet people spend feats on those.

[tasebro]

Interesting. Do you feel similarly regarding weapon crits? Never land when needed, or overkill when not needed? And yet people spend feats on those.

^^^^Red Herring^^^^.
Arcane casters tend make use of specializing in spellcrit, not so much divines.

Divines generally as a theme do not rely on "crunchy" abilities. The signature divine attribute is "slow and steady", consistent and rock solid reliable. The team "goalkeeper" as it were. Relying on crunchy abilities is risky, and divines whole purpose is to mitigate risk (which is why they had to be nerfed).

Sure chit happens, but divines seek "boring" consistency.

Some notable exceptions to this general rule are monk melee crits, pally smites [yes monks and pallys *are* divine subclasses] and fvs with spellcrit keyed to lilght/alignment casting; in these cases, crits are sought after, by nature of the front-line purpose intended.