Devs, Let's Talk: Healing

[jejeba86]

I don't play with healing capable classes, and think I'll never do.

But I do play with a barbarian that really needs healing to work fully, so I know the value of the healing capable builds.

Therefore, I learned to respect the healer's mana, the source of my life.

Philosophically speaking, any person that plays with a healing capable character is acting in a altruist way, as he could be just killing everything, without worrying about others.
You can say that it's their role, as we must have some kind of healing to success. But I think that they deserve more credit.

All that said, I ask for reasons on the diminished efficiency on the two main healing spells, and probably to radiant servent's aura.

Ninja insertion:
And if you come to answer, take the time to explain the change on freedom of movement also, please. Given the active combat of ddo, this change can be very harsh.

[Drakesan]

I run two lvl 20 FVS toons, and they were rolled up with the explicit intent of healing groups. Thankfully, they have other things going for them that healing was NOT all I did, I got to play the game as well.

I've run a plethora of non self-sufficient toons, two of them to cap. I feel, deeply, the sentiment that healers were very appreciated in quests.

I now run towards self-sufficiency on all my toons, I know healing is a chore, and hoped to lessen the burden a bit on divines.

Now to nerf the spells, less effective, meaning you have less sp resources for your healing chores?

Why will I heal groups? To lessen my enjoyment of the game? Have less sp to play the game (IF I decide to heal, that is)?

I cannot fathom the reason for this (other than a tin-foil hat reason). Ima confused. Is there ANY benefit to this? Make ALL quests that much more difficult like some have been saying?

Please, after all discussions on other threads, talk to us about this. I know a majority of my guildies are just as confused and angered....

[donblas]

And if you come to answer, take the time to explain the change on freedom of movement also, please. Given the active combat of ddo, this change can be very harsh.

My only thought is that FoM and Neutralize Poison were two of the few good spells usable by rangers, so they had to be nerfed?

[butcheredspirit]

My only thought is that FoM and Neutralize Poison were two of the few good spells usable by rangers, so they had to be nerfed?

HA! Yes.

And don't even think about asking for an animal companion.

[Faent]

My only thought is that FoM and Neutralize Poison were two of the few good spells usable by rangers, so they had to be nerfed?

The DEV's don't hate Rangers. They don't do everything they can to screw them over endlessly. They gave us Spike Growth, remember?

[donblas]

The DEV's don't hate Rangers. They don't do everything they can to screw them over endlessly. They gave us Spike Growth, remember?

Oops I forgot that and will pour a libation to the devs in thanks.

[NovaNZ]

My only thought is that FoM and Neutralize Poison were two of the few good spells usable by rangers and bards, so they had to be nerfed?

Fixed that for ya

[fco-karatekid]

My only thought is that FoM and Neutralize Poison were two of the few good spells usable by rangers, so they had to be nerfed?

My thought EXACTLY.

[Starla70]

I haven't gotten to the other threads yet. I do know that my cleric toons are I'd say about half as effective. I run shrouds, and high content. The groups I run with have learned the hard way, the mobs are far stronger then they were, and the healing is about 2/3rd's power is high half is low, so it is no longer balanced. All in our guild are upset, several have stopped playing until it gets fixed, at least high level stuff. I would like to hear from the DEV's why and what was the point? For me, it hasn't made me want to find a new game, but it is getting there. If I wanted to play a video game with limited choices, I would. I play here because I liked it. I think it needs to go back. Humorous thing to me is the few I played with who wanted these changes hate them. That makes me feel so much better!

[Lord_Darquain]

Well, pre-u14, healing is not fun. Being new to endgame content is not fun. I TR'ed my healer into dps for that reason. My friends have left DDO for those reasons.

People built to have 1 tank in party who cared about miss chance, partied with a lot of experienced players who built to large HP or self healing or tons of healing amp. New players that didn't know to build this way and/or didn't have the gear for it were stuck in a "reroll or don't raid" situation.

Healers had to cast a LOT meaning a lot of SP usage, meaning more babysitting than any other game I've ever played and more expense to the healer than I could have ever imagined when I first rolled mine up (in the form of major SP pots needed for raids). Combine with almost no healing raid or endgame gear compared to all the DPS, tank, and casting gear, and being a healer in DDO was not very much like healing in an MMO at all.

What needed to happen to fix these issues turning away healers and new players of any role: Make miss chance more of a mechanic, make super-HP less of a mechanic, GET PEOPLE TO BUILD AND PLAY DIFFERENTLY SOMEHOW.

Now here's what it seems/I hope is happening post-u14 to get us there:

U14: Make miss chance drastically more of a game mechanic & make small amounts of heal amp more available in the form of randomly-generated gear and the PDK gauntlets. Expect players to start building to miss chance (including free LRs) Make super-ramping heal spells less viable as a way of getting them to move to the new paradigm.

?: Make super-ramping HP less possible to non-barbarians. Perhaps by limiting Toughness to a single-use feat.

And if vets continue to not change their ways, they'll have to find more and more creative and nerful ways to try to get vets to move to the new playstyle that WILL be more fun for more people.



Now MY concern is that we help out the HEALERS durign this transition by providing them more BTC sp potions via all their epic end reward lists or somesuch.

[Noctus]

And if vets continue to not change their ways, they'll have to find more and more creative and nerful ways to try to get vets to move to the new playstyle that WILL be more fun for more people.



Now MY concern is that we help out the HEALERS durign this transition by providing them more BTC sp potions via all their epic end reward lists or somesuch.

If you so love the Holy Trinity (only roles: Tank, Heal, DPS) of every generic MMO out there, then go any play that, but dont try to force that down our throats here in DDO. It is boring, monodimensional, ultra-generic and decidedly not fun for most people playing here.
And you know why i know that people prefer the freedom of roles in DDO? - Because they play DDO instead of one of the dozens of Holy-Trinity-MMOs out there.


If you roll up failbuilds, because you did not do the research and just expected it will be as generically boring perdetermined as always, it is you who has to build a character that can play well in DDO, not DDO that has to change to make your build more usefull.


If you play a Divine (yes, Divine as they are called here, not Healers, and thats for a reason) and have to regularly quaff SP-Pots like its sugar candy then there is something seriously wrong with your play.
Adjust, and dont cry for the world to change around your personal prefernces.


P.S.
For your idea of how great it would be to "force all the vets to build and play differently" do some research on "New Game Enhancements" in Star Wars Galaxies and what a great success it was when they overhauled their system into more generic MMO routines.

[tasebro]

So, the way to force people to play differently, is to force them to all play the same?
So why not just rename the "old same", to be the "new same" and be done with it?

No. Heals were nerfed to trim the top range of player-controlled support (divines) in order to prop up the lowest common denominator by default.

Its not a coincidence that the new spellpoint and Heal potions are up for sale in the DDO store, so there is also the fact that fully capable divine casters now directly compete with DDO Store sales, hence the recent 50% nerf on divine casting....

[Lord_Darquain]

So, the way to force people to play differently, is to force them to all play the same?
So why not just rename the "old same", to be the "new same" and be done with it?

People sharing a playstyle is not an issue to me, it's a part of playing an MMO.

People NOT HAVING FUN is an issue, THE issue in a GAME. New people and healers often don't have fun.

[anto_capone]

I love to play my divine. I hate to heal other people. Why?

Because it is not fun being responsible for other people's mistakes.

If I do a 'good job on the hjeals', I wind up making more work for myself later on. In other words, people reward my 'good job' with more insane attempts to get themselves killed.

If I do a 'good job' healing someone who grabs too much aggro, they simply try to grab even more aggro next time, or they grab aggro and then stand in a trap or something.

But if I do a 'bad job' healing someone, they slow down and don't grab too much aggro, they watch out for traps, they even seem to play 'smarter' even perhaps.....


So, what to do? For now, I simply don't PUG much at all on my divine. I can't keep up.

[BossOfEarth]

I love to play my divine. I hate to heal other people. Why?

Because it is not fun being responsible for other people's mistakes.

If I do a 'good job on the hjeals', I wind up making more work for myself later on. In other words, people reward my 'good job' with more insane attempts to get themselves killed.

If I do a 'good job' healing someone who grabs too much aggro, they simply try to grab even more aggro next time, or they grab aggro and then stand in a trap or something.

But if I do a 'bad job' healing someone, they slow down and don't grab too much aggro, they watch out for traps, they even seem to play 'smarter' even perhaps.....


So, what to do? For now, I simply don't PUG much at all on my divine. I can't keep up.

Lol, so true. Back when I was playing my healers, I used to wand whip everyone with cure light wounds to keep them timid.

[azrael4h]

Lol, so true. Back when I was playing my healers, I used to wand whip everyone with cure light wounds to keep them timid.

I still have the Cure Minor Wounds eternal wand, even though my Cleric is now a Sorcerer, and my Favored Soul is now a Bard. :P

I was actually planning on going back to FvS on my Bard, because Bard isn't really that fun to play (this is an issue I've had since before U14). Now, I don't know what to do with the character. I was going to TR my Sorc into a Druid, though I've been playing the new stuff with her so that may be shelved for a while. My Fighter is also going through the epic stuff at a slightly lower rate of speed currently, though she needed much more regearing (and still does). Though she was never planned to leave the Melee field at all. Rogue was my original planned next life.

Tell me, someone, why exactly should I roll or TR into a Divine. Dev, veteran, noob, anyone tell me, exactly, why I should spend a third life running as a Cleric or Favored Soul. What do those classes offer me? How are they fun? Anyone can answer, even Shade can though I know his answers will be tinged towards the greatness of worshipping the almighty Barbarian.

Mind you, I have capped a Cleric, and I have capped a Favored Soul. I've been offensive casting divine and melee divine. Until LoB and MA were added, I had healed every raid on elite without issue save Abbot and Titan. I even solo healed in the melee in VoD and Shroud before, on my Favored Soul. I've healed my static group, and continue to do so even on my Sorcerer, Bard, and yes even my Fighters, who can at least whip out a scroll or wand. So it's not a lack of desire, willingness, or capability to heal others. Every character I've built, from my first Gimped Paladin (isn't that redundant?) to my latest little Rogue awaiting the guildies decision for the group TR, is built to heal myself and others to some extent beyond potions. Whether UMD, Half-Elf Dilettante, or class choice, I do not mind healing and build for some capability.

Now, after telling me why I should level a Divine Caster, of whatever sort, and how they are fun, tell me this: How does nerfing the healing abilities, even of just two spells, or one in the case of Druids, make the Divine classes either more fun to play, or more desirable for me to roll? How does increasing the micromanagement inherent in the class make them more fun to play? How does breaking healing amp on others make them fun to play?

Now, again, tell me. How is it fun to play a Divine caster in a group of random strangers, i.e. a Pug? What reason would I have to bring a Cleric or Favored Soul or Druid into a group, whether raid or quest? What makes this fun?

Now, finally, tell me. If it is not fun to play and level a Divine caster in DDO. If it is not fun to pug or group a Divine caster in DDO. If you cannot tell me how fun it is to have reduced and made healing more difficult if even by a fraction. Why should I, or anyone else, do what is not inherently fun, in a video game?

In the end, DDO is a game. I do not play a divine caster out of a sense of duty to provide random strangers or Shade or anyone else with a service. This isn't a brothel or the IRS, and I do not work at either. I did not spend money on DDO to go to work. I spent money to play a game, and have fun. Not to provide for others to have fun at my expense.

From a game design stand point, I am working on my own game. And have scrapped many ideas because I, or someone I trust that I ran them against, said that they were not fun. Because, in essence, if what you design is not fun, then you have failed, completely and utterly. If what you change causes a large number, and yes having pretty much every competent known divine player on the forums is a large enough number according to a college statistics course (most polls are done with 1000 out of a population of 300 million after all, here in the US, and are taken as gospel), to decry the changes, then you have failed.

It's not too late. You rolled back the idiotic changes to the metamagics after you found out that no one would ever take them as they were in Beta, other than for PrE requirements. You rolled back the Combat Training feat that some got, though I won't claim to know what was up with that in the first place. You rolled back making arcanes only good for buffs and mass hold monster in epics again. Don't break Clerics and Favored Souls.

No other class or group of classes can hold up a pug group due to the lack of willing players as is. No one waits on Barbarians, or Fighters or Monks. Rarely does anyone wait on Bards and Artificers, though they are as welcome in any competently led group. Only certain places will they wait on a Rogue, and that less and less given that Artificers are around. In fact, Rogues, as well as Rangers and Paladins, are often denied groups because of their class. Which is your fault, Turbine. Rarely does anyone wait on an Arcane to join.

Hit the LFM panel at any time, and you're likely to see one, if not several, looking for a Cleric or Favored Soul.

[ZeebaNeighba]

No other class or group of classes can hold up a pug group due to the lack of willing players as is. No one waits on Barbarians, or Fighters or Monks. Rarely does anyone wait on Bards and Artificers, though they are as welcome in any competently led group. Only certain places will they wait on a Rogue, and that less and less given that Artificers are around. In fact, Rogues, as well as Rangers and Paladins, are often denied groups because of their class. Which is your fault, Turbine. Rarely does anyone wait on an Arcane to join.

Hit the LFM panel at any time, and you're likely to see one, if not several, looking for a Cleric or Favored Soul.

It's funny, I've seen dev posts saying that if enough people are unsatisfied with something they usually change it. And the only thing they've said is a couple cryptic lines in release notes. 90% of the posters in these threads are disagreeing, and the other 10% say their heals are good enough and they'll just live through it. No one actually likes the nerf (except shade, but no one likes him), and it's bad enough that people will stop playing their divines.

Groups will fill slower, and it's a PITA for some people to wait 5-10 minutes for a healer in a pug, imagine what happens when we lose a good portion of our divines.

Either people start rolling self sufficient groups, which takes away a lot of the incentive to roll through quests as a group and turns a lot of content into a zerg fest, or the divines start speccing into healing way more than they should. Healing should just be their special stuff, no one wants it as a chore where they have to spend 1-3 feats and grind out an awesome devotion weapon and find a few more good clickies and spend loads of action points and probably find a good spell crit item just to be able to heal most people to full.

[azrael4h]

It's funny, I've seen dev posts saying that if enough people are unsatisfied with something they usually change it. And the only thing they've said is a couple cryptic lines in release notes. 90% of the posters in these threads are disagreeing, and the other 10% say their heals are good enough and they'll just live through it. No one actually likes the nerf (except shade, but no one likes him), and it's bad enough that people will stop playing their divines.

Groups will fill slower, and it's a PITA for some people to wait 5-10 minutes for a healer in a pug, imagine what happens when we lose a good portion of our divines.

Either people start rolling self sufficient groups, which takes away a lot of the incentive to roll through quests as a group and turns a lot of content into a zerg fest, or the divines start speccing into healing way more than they should. Healing should just be their special stuff, no one wants it as a chore where they have to spend 1-3 feats and grind out an awesome devotion weapon and find a few more good clickies and spend loads of action points and probably find a good spell crit item just to be able to heal most people to full.

Oh, everyone will live through it, no doubt. Some will quit pugging, some will quit being the divine, and some may quit entirely. A scarce few will actually like it though, as shown in these threads. As I said, in the end, this is just a game, and it's no skin off my back. I can run perfectly fine on my characters without them, or can work around hirelings well enough. After playing for over two years with one of the worst divine caster players on Khyber, I don't need one. But 99% of players do. And what affects divines, affects them.

[sirgog]

Firstly healing spells have been buffed overall. Heal and Mass Heal are about where they were, but non-meta'ed Mass Cures and single Cures are much more efficient and potent than ever. Only exception is on WF where Healer's Friend seems to have issues.

Healing non-elite difficulties is extremely easy with a few exceptions. Solohealed an epic hard DQ2 last night on an unlevelled destiny while battling crippling lag in a PUG with 7 people, and didn't use a scroll much less a mana potion despite us having only 7 people in the group.

As for Elite - once you learn not to try to keep everyone topped off all the time, healing is no more skill intensive than playing a melee or arcane. I generally use more mana potions when solo crowd controlling 6 person content than in any other situation, certainly more than I ever use healing.

[Faent]

Healing non-elite difficulties is extremely easy with a few exceptions.

Well duh. These difficulties are (with some rare exceptions) a joke now. What's your point? I used to have to worry about tactics and such if I wanted to go solo epic content. Now I just waltz into Epic Hard and blitz through it (with some rare exceptions) like it's Casual Gianthold or Vale. So you can heal this weaksauce content? So what?