So, nerfed healing is WAI?

[Razcar]

Yeah, I just noticed the same after he answered my post right above yours, I guess I'll stop trying to have a discussion with him.

There's a couple of posters here on the forums that enjoy to "white knight troll". Every time Turbine makes a change that is unpopular with a larger group of forum goers, they like to pop into threads full of upset players and start to defend the controversial change relentlessly - and it doesn't matter one iota what the change or nerf pertains. It can be absolutely anything - as long as people are getting a bit emotional towards Turbine they smell an opportunity; all under the guise of defending Turbine from a "vocal minority".

They probably think this kind of behaviour is safe from moderation, since they're pretending to be a "white knight" of the "damsel in distress" - Turbine. What they really are doing, of course, is trying to rile up other posters as much as possible through taking advantage of whatever emotions said nerf has stirred up.

Just do like I do - learn to spot them, which is not hard once you know their modus operandi, and then just largely ignore them. Like all trolls caught in the light of day they are totally, absolutely harmless

[Vellrad]

Stop your grinnin and drop your linen, we have official Dev comment upcoming..

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=156

soon (TM)

[akiraproject24]

SO didnt feel like reading the whole thread...has their been any dev.company comment on this besides the stupid addition to the release notes? I mean with all these people up in arms about this you think one would at least step up and say yes thats the way it is now take it or leave it or something?? Stop cowering

[MRMechMan]

Its not a lie actually, you will see that I forgot two things, one of which is that maximize doesnt affect heal spells, but the other is a devotion item which I forgot to add in.

150 heal
225 empower heal
337 devotion 50%
404 2 tiers of life magic.
444 10% amp
532 20% amp
691 30% amp
(actually comes to 694 if you leave the decimal in and just multiply rather than round down each time)

Most of the solo raid build FvS up til now had ~700 hp at the top end. No crits, guaranteed full self heal unless dead.

Now go ahead and tell me they dont take empower heal and dont have heal amp gear. The endgamers do. The people who used their AP for maxing out damage do. The people STILL posting that they are soloing epic elite content in the accomplishment forums do. If they do not, they are healing themselves when they get to 50% HP, for even less mana.

They still took at a MINIMUM life magic III, likely life magic IV, for the fvs capstone heal or cleric aura.

Not even sure why I am responding to this though as you clearly are just grasping at straws and stirring up trouble using any facts you can. Even if they aren't actually true (maximize and empower working on heal, excellent work there).

[Chai]

You proved in the post you deleted that you didn't know what you were talking about with that build...and I'm not just talking about empower and maximize not working for heal. That build relies heavily on the clw capstone, which essentially requires you to maximize the amount that it heals.

Nice try, but no....you have yet to find me the build. Anecdotal evidence of "someone I know uses that build, I swear!" doesn't work.

Observe, the new correct calc is posted in this thread, and still shows me to be correct on the issue.

Now wheres that breakdown?

[Chai]

They still took at a MINIMUM life magic III, likely life magic IV, for the fvs capstone heal or cleric aura.

Not even sure why I am responding to this though as you clearly are just grasping at straws and stirring up trouble using any facts you can. Even if they aren't actually true (maximize and empower working on heal, excellent work there).

Observe, I have 2 tiers of life magic in there. Not 3 and not 4.

[MRMechMan]

observe, i have 2 tiers of life magic in there. Not 3 and not 4.

really? Because my guildy was the first non-pot tod soloer, and I am pretty sure he took teirs 3 and probably 4, too.

Now get back under your **** bridge.

[morticianjohn]

I used tier 1 and 2 life magic AP in my calc. We are not relegated to builds posted on the forums. I know what the people posting the high end accomplishments are using and thats what I showed you the calc for.

I also have yet to see the breakdown I requested for why this is a NET nerf overall. There is only one reason no one hasnt been linked yet. Because someone already showed their work on how this is NOT a net nerf.

lol. Making up a term like "net nerf".

Net and gross are financial terms. Let's see the comparison.

earnings 100% gross minus expenses 50% = net earnings of 50%

I guess a net nerf in this case would be any earnings that equal less than 50%?

So if prior to the update we were casting a 500 point healing spell when a given monster dealt 50 damgage per swing and now we are casting a 600 point heal when monsters are dealing 100 damage per swing it's a net nerf because we are healing for a lower percentage against monster damage than we were before the update.

[Chai]

lol. Making up a term like "net nerf".

Net and gross are financial terms. Let's see the comparison.

earnings 100% gross minus expenses 50% = net earnings of 50%

I guess a net nerf in this case would be any earnings that equal less than 50%?

So if prior to the update we were casting a 500 point healing spell when a given monster dealt 50 damgage per swing and now we are casting a 600 point heal when monsters are dealing 100 damage per swing it's a net nerf because we are healing for a lower percentage against monster damage than we were before the update.

Net and gross are not strictly financial terms. They are terms used when you consider all possible factors, did you come out ahead or behind.

Wheres the consideration for the blur/ghostly stack, the AC revamp which allows just about everyone to have *some defense now, or the dodge percentage, or the PRR, or the fact the much higher DPS means mobs die more quickly - just to name a few.

No sir, its not a net nerf.

[Aashrym]

SO didnt feel like reading the whole thread...has their been any dev.company comment on this besides the stupid addition to the release notes? I mean with all these people up in arms about this you think one would at least step up and say yes thats the way it is now take it or leave it or something?? Stop cowering

Yes, here. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...19#post4577519

I'm waiting for the rest of the official response. I am interested in any feedback on spells other than heal or mass heal that might be affected if responses to those comments will be included.

[Nick_RC]

This is not some obscure build - this is a regularly built toon, and quite alot of accomplishments have been posted on the accomplishment forum by players of that very build.

As far as changing the subject, I was challenged to post one build, and I posted THE build that is making a mockery of alot of epic elite content currently.

LOL.

I never got around to replying to you. Just read some of the contents of ur posts...disappointing. I seem to recall some patronizing comment about gravitating to the most powerful FoTM class? Been playing battleclerics since desert was end game. Dont patronize me - Ive been around the block and been here as long as you.

In MY OPINION (People pay their own subs - can play how they like) that con build was ALWAYS gimped outside of soloing raids in a time INefficient fashion. They were terrible in pre update epics. The ONLY thing they did well was solo raids. And after you have done that once whats the point? It is not those builds that are making a mockery of EE. Both Nix Vali and myself are wisdom based with DCs. He is a pure evoker type and mine is a blended 'battlecleric' type. Those Con builds are are gimick builds. They are built with a purpose - to solo raids - and that is it. They are terrible generalist builds. I know very very few FVS with empower heal btw. Only those con build abominations. Most have max and empower not empower heal.

You should be more familiar with what people are playing and doing before making up nonsence. Max and Empower dont apply to heal. There is NO con based fvs posting in the achievement forum at the moment. Hell mine doesnt even have toughness. Do you even play a Divine?

He is right about a couple of things though from my perspective. (Trying to be objective here)

1. The FVS in my guild ('powergamers' I guess) dont carry life magic all the way up to 4. Most take to 3. I personally take to two. I am more the exception though as I just dont care all that much about healing.
2. Well actually thats it.

Honestly the heal 'nerf' doesn't bother me - I kind of get why they are doing it - to make other masses more appealing and in a way making healing bards not obsolete. What really REALLY annoys me is half spell power on our light damage spells. There is no reason for this. Absolutely none. Its a disgrace that they are ignoring this and not even giving a reason. If they want to nerf dots - nerf all dots not just light. I would LOVE it if they nerfed dots personally even though I use them. As a side note I doubt I will have a battlecleric for too much longer sadly. From what I can see turbine is trying to nueter the offensive capabilities of the class compared to the growth in other classses. You melee fans will have your healbots soon enough. I would be willing to bet in the enhancement update we will see weak offensive casting and melee lines for both clr and fvs and uber healing ones. So much so that anyone without them will really struggle to heal end game.


N

[tasebro]

LOL...I can still heal myself and the party just fine... And I'm having a blast in the new content... sorry you're missing it.

I'm sure I "appreciate" your sentiment for what it is thrud.
Your wrong tho, I do not "miss" the limited *half access* to contribution that logging onto my divine toons now constrain me to as a player, and that is because I have assessed this situation for what it is (i.e. "bunk"), and made the correct decision in response: I have simply parked *all* my divine toons until and unless turbine ever gets around to reversing this nerf, as I have no motivation whatsoever to waste any more of my time on my divine casters if the devs are just going to nerf divines in order to prop up the lowest common denominator.

In the meantime, I have dusted off older *melee* and *arcane* toons that do *not* saddle me with a lame, petty nerfage keyed to deny my access to full player contribution, because at this point, I have more spare toon slots than I have interest/patience in struggling uphill against pointless nerfs that serve nothing but to prop up the lowest common denominator. That is why my divines are parked in stasis, and will remain so pending reversal of this misguided, hamfisted nerf. Yes, while that *is* an indisputable a loss for *everyone* really, since I had some fairly capable clerics and fvs, now rotting on the vine, now a benefit to *no one*. OTOH, I can *always* use more bankspace mules....

The day this 50% nerf on divine casting and SLAs is removed, is the same day my divines come out of stasis and go back online providing *full* benefit to *everyone*. Till then, I am going arcane and melee, *just like everyone else*...

... As a side note I doubt I will have a battlecleric for too much longer sadly. From what I can see turbine is trying to nueter the offensive capabilities of the class compared to the growth in other classses. ...

yep.

[Jasparion]

The day this 50% nerf on divine casting and SLAs is removed, is the same day my divines come out of stasis and go back online providing *full* benefit to *everyone*. Till then, I am going arcane and melee, *just like everyone else*...

Sounds like the Divines who arent having a hissy fit can now charge up front Pots to run raids. Sounds like I am going to get rich quick.

Before you parked your toons, what numbers were you getting for heals? What gear did you have? Did you have Empowered Healing? What numbers did you get before U14?

Can you show the maths which Im sure you would have done before parking your toons and making your threat on the forum to never play your toons again.

Thanks.

[morticianjohn]

Net and gross are not strictly financial terms. They are terms used when you consider all possible factors, did you come out ahead or behind.

Wheres the consideration for the blur/ghostly stack, the AC revamp which allows just about everyone to have *some defense now, or the dodge percentage, or the PRR, or the fact the much higher DPS means mobs die more quickly - just to name a few.

No sir, its not a net nerf.

Yes where do we put all of those changes in terms of the net healing nerf? We could debate all day on how effective those changes were towards making healing easier however, that is largely dependant upon what others bring to the table. I'm talking about what I can affect in terms of what I can bring to the table.

Healing has always been easy. With some of the changes it has made things difficult for those who want to heal + do other stuff. For example melee healers can't get the highest spellpower items, caster divines will have to slot impulse, devotion, radiance, and evocation focus. Some of this will be no problem but some will take gear swaps etc...

[danotmano1998]

IDK, at the risk of putting up an opinion that isn't popular in the least, I'm going to have to go with:

1. My divines do just fine healing even with the change. Only I heal a fraction less than I did before. Not enough to say the class has been destroyed or that I'm parking them.

2. It DOES make sense that there had to be some sort of check in place. Take your heals pre-U14, then add another 30% to them from destinies. Now add another 100%+ as well from spellpower gear. Where would that put heals at?
(Mind you, I have very limited info on the destinies. There could be even more that adds up I'm not aware of off the top of my head.)

Thank you MadFloyd for your snippet of post. Once I read that, and starting adding it together in my head, it made a WHOLE LOT more sense.

But I'm not a number cruncher or math guru, so I won't post my pathetic attempts at breakdowns. That's best left for a lot of other forumites who do such a fantastic job already. I don't pretend to understand all the new formulas, that is why I play D&D on a computer!

[akiraproject24]

most of these end game soloers dont rely on their heal spell unless in an "oh s**t situation. Any healer worth his salt is using scrolls adn other resources to heal their groups saving sp for encounters gone bad or for offensive spells. Using scrolls and free capstone cure light...if the cure light isnt hitting as hard as it SHOULD then I know that would be a huge issue for my fvs who keeps himself up rarely with sp so that sp can be spent on dots and blades....so having an 800 pt heal isnt the issue and is basically a waste imo unless tank healing duty, but when the free capstone takes a hit it kinda blows.

Why divines get off on having the biggest heal possible I find funny as its overkill in most situations and most Uber divines have less vested in their heal and more vested in their HP/offensive power. But to the point...

If this healing nerf effects the free cure light...then I take issue with it. Actually I take issue with the nerf anyhow. How can you say "ok you guys get this" but you...you only get half cause you are too powerful" A big F bomb to he that made this decision...I forget where I was going...rooaarrr

[tasebro]

Sounds like the Divines who arent having a hissy fit can now charge up front Pots to run raids. Sounds like I am going to get rich quick.

Before you parked your toons, what numbers were you getting for heals? What gear did you have? Did you have Empowered Healing? What numbers did you get before U14?

Can you show the maths which Im sure you would have done

I have already did all that /ad nauseum/.
So have a lot of other divine players--but then a few too many fan bois got carried away with their gloatfest shouting down the facts, and posts started getting dis appeared. So much for "hissy fit"...this "discussion" has long since been "concluded".

Can you show the maths which Im sure you would have done before parking your toons and making your threat on the forum to never play your toons again.

Thanks.

I assure you I am making no "threat" whatsoever, merely a statement of fact to illustrate the nature of the very real backlash created by segregation of divine casters as second rate casters, created by nerfdate 14. A backlash which is being actively dismissed and whitewashed on this forum.
To clarify: I see no motivation in me wasting any more of my time on my *nerfed* divine casters when I have perfectly viable, worthwhile alts [arcane and melee] that are *not* so nerfed. I value my time, and my contribution as a player *more* than I value struggling under pointless nerfs that serve *only* to prop up the lowest common denominator.

If you [or anyone else] disagrees with that view, then you do have the option of rolling your own divine casters and doing whatever you like with them...or we can all just roll arcanes and melees and the issue is then moot, isnt it?

[Jasparion]

So how do you think your raids will go when everyone joins you in your self imposed exile?

[danotmano1998]

caster divines will have to slot impulse, devotion, radiance, and evocation focus. Some of this will be no problem but some will take gear swaps etc...

Yep. If you want the max #'s, no more trash 3 minute clickies.
You have to admit, with a clickie or two, you could completely ignore most caster gear entirely as far as spell damages go. I know that I did! (But not anymore.. Which, IMO, is a change for the better.)

Keep in mind too, that some of the new loot drops with greater lore, 2 kinds of spell power, and a greater spell focus on them all in one handy weapon slot. Once you get one of these babies, your swapping gets a lot less intensive.

[Chai]

LOL.

I never got around to replying to you. Just read some of the contents of ur posts...disappointing. I seem to recall some patronizing comment about gravitating to the most powerful FoTM class? Been playing battleclerics since desert was end game. Dont patronize me - Ive been around the block and been here as long as you.

This isnt about you in particular. Variants of that build are in no way unique or even niche on most servers. People had no way to refute the fact that most of the accomplishments, soloing EE expansion stuff for instance, are happening on divine.

In MY OPINION (People pay their own subs - can play how they like) that con build was ALWAYS gimped outside of soloing raids in a time INefficient fashion. They were terrible in pre update epics. The ONLY thing they did well was solo raids. And after you have done that once whats the point? It is not those builds that are making a mockery of EE. Both Nix Vali and myself are wisdom based with DCs. He is a pure evoker type and mine is a blended 'battlecleric' type. Those Con builds are are gimick builds. They are built with a purpose - to solo raids - and that is it. They are terrible generalist builds. I know very very few FVS with empower heal btw. Only those con build abominations. Most have max and empower not empower heal.

Without being a con build theres no need for empowered heal.

You should be more familiar with what people are playing and doing before making up nonsence. Max and Empower dont apply to heal. There is NO con based fvs posting in the achievement forum at the moment. Hell mine doesnt even have toughness. Do you even play a Divine?

Tere is no nonsense whatsoever in my post, and I am absolutely familiar with what everyone is playing. I was asked for one example and I provided it. And I made the one mistake forgetting that maximise doesnt factor into heal. removed the post before everyone wh quoted it replied and fixed it to show an accurate ~700ish point heal (which gets completely glossed over by those who disagree with me still trying to call me out on one error), but alas, the post was quoted and Im sure I'll be hearing about it for the next 2 years. I am still absolutely correct on this issue. This is not a NET nerf. DEV explanation will be arriving soon® in another thread.

He is right about a couple of things though from my perspective. (Trying to be objective here)

1. The FVS in my guild ('powergamers' I guess) dont carry life magic all the way up to 4. Most take to 3. I personally take to two. I am more the exception though as I just dont care all that much about healing.
2. Well actually thats it.

Hardly the exception. Anyone who doesnt really give a rip about the one capstone that benefits from it, including most splashes who dont get the capstone anyhow, wasnt benefitting from it as much as tossing on a few heal amp items. Most of the people who WANT to group heal more playstyle wise are rolling clerics.

Honestly the heal 'nerf' doesn't bother me - I kind of get why they are doing it - to make other masses more appealing and in a way making healing bards not obsolete. What really REALLY annoys me is half spell power on our light damage spells. There is no reason for this. Absolutely none. Its a disgrace that they are ignoring this and not even giving a reason. If they want to nerf dots - nerf all dots not just light. I would LOVE it if they nerfed dots personally even though I use them. As a side note I doubt I will have a battlecleric for too much longer sadly. From what I can see turbine is trying to nueter the offensive capabilities of the class compared to the growth in other classses. You melee fans will have your healbots soon enough. I would be willing to bet in the enhancement update we will see weak offensive casting and melee lines for both clr and fvs and uber healing ones. So much so that anyone without them will really struggle to heal end game.


N

The reason they are nerfing the DOT is because it is the major thing the hyperbolic forumites union® claims is overpowered when they are demanding that everything else other than what they play needs to be nerfed.