So, nerfed healing is WAI?

[taurean430]

Ok, point out exactly where I 'trolled' then.

That would require me being interested in doing so. I am not. Reread your own posts if you are curious. I'll choose not to continue clogging up this thread playing your game any longer.

This thread is a discussion/debate. Your trolling it, and not doing a bang up job of that either.

[Forzah]

That would require me being interested in doing so. I am not. Reread your own posts if you are curious. I'll choose not to continue clogging up this thread playing your game any longer.

This thread is a discussion/debate. Your trolling it, and not doing a bang up job of that either.

Are you sure it isn't the other way around? You can't really find anything, can you? Read the edit of my previous post. You seem to have misunderstood my post.

[pseudomasochist]

I made a serious post. Jeese. Why play the 'troll' card when someone has a different opinion? I'm looking at this change from a balance perspective as if I played game as a fresh player. It really isn't that bad!

What balance is achieved by reducing the ability of clerics and favored souls to heal?

I don't know that the issue is whether the nerf is "that bad" as opposed to unnecessary and poorly targeted if game balance is the goal.

For the sake of the discussion, it would really help if a developer jumped in and clarified what changes to divine spells are intentional and which are bugs. Heal and Heal, Mass were mentioned in the release notes but some people are seeing reduced effect from spell power in other spells. Right now there's a lot of speculation on what's WAI and what isn't so even the nature of the issue is unclear.

[Forzah]

What balance is achieved by reducing the ability of clerics and favored souls to heal?

Heal and mass heal are way more efficient than other healing spells, and this puts all healing spells more in line with eachother. The first time I used the heal spell on my cleric, my reaction was the following: "what the hell, this spells heals for a lot". It seemed rather unbalanced to me.

Actually, I've had similar first impressions with other things:

Instant kill spells: boring and overpowered.
Potency: potency works on all spells, why is it as effective as a spell effect targeting an individual group? Maybe the ML is 2 levels higher, but it still doesn't seem right. They fixed that now.
The new destiny that makes melee hit for 8k: seems plain wrong to me, haven't been able to test it yet.
Dots: do too much damage and are too easy to maintain.
Heavy fort: reducing all variability of incoming melee damage with just one effect is a bad mechanic.
Shipbuffs: removes all need for requiring gear to defend you against certain elements.

[WruntJunior]

Heal and mass heal are way more efficient than other healing spells, and this puts all healing spells more in line with eachother. The first time I used the heal spell on my cleric, my reaction was the following: "what the hell, this spells heals for a lot". It seemed rather unbalanced to me.

The only variety nerfing efficient healing spells adds to healers is whether healers play a different class, or just stop healing outside of guild. No one like to be shoe-horned into the one role that the majority of people not only need, but completely disrespect...and forcing inefficient methods of healing disallow healers being able to do other things along with their healing, unless they just love drinking pots.

People won't suddenly go "oh, I love using mass cures now that they do about the same, but my mass heal sucks"...they'll go "oh, I love the new wail of the banshee...it's like a better version of implosion!"

[taurean430]

Heal/Mass Heal have been buffed at the base level, yet only receive 1/2 power from items. Caster level increases are not affecting them. If this is intended or not remains vast and mysterious.

Alignment based/light/untyped spell damage receive 1/2 power from items. Caster level increases are not affecting them.

Part of the problem also lies in the method used to 'bring in line' cure spells to heal spells. Heal spells remove status aliments of many kinds, cures do not. This becomes an issue for some due to the fast live combat, poison and disease changes, and preferred speed of play found in most groups.

Spell power has been tied to items. For a dc or spell damage cast, gear swapping is required. This can prove to be problematic due to speed of play, increased damage taken by the party. Especially spike damage.

For a divine caster who only heals, these changes are easier to adapt to. For any other flavor of divine caster, this produces issues.

[pseudomasochist]

Heal and mass heal are way more efficient than other healing spells, and this puts all healing spells more in line with eachother. The first time I used the heal spell on my cleric, my reaction was the following: "what the hell, this spells heals for a lot". It seemed rather unbalanced to me.

I don't see the greater sp-efficiency of (Mass)Heal as a problem. Spells with different characteristics force tactical decisions on how to make the most out of one's blue bar.

Heal, Mass is efficient but also slow so it's best for consistent damage and controlled situations. The mass cures are inefficient but can be cast faster and more frequently so they're better for damage spikes, chaotic encounters, and "oh sh--!" moments. They're different tools for different jobs and figuring out when to use which one is part of learning how to heal well. Make the various healing spells too similar in performance and the healing aspect of playing a cleric or favored soul becomes mindless clicking. Nerf their most efficient healing spells as is happening now and the cleric/fvs will be less able to contribute in other ways because more of their spell points have to go towards keeping everyone alive.

Also, PUG healers don't need their efficiency reduced. Yes, in guild/channel runs, often the biggest challenge for healers is staying awake. PUGs are on a completely different level of organization and preparedness and in those parties, the blue bars of clerics and favored souls were under enough pressure as it was. Balancing spells for guild or channel parties will mean PUG healers have to eat the cost of completions more frequently than before.

[Auralana7214]

If the point was to put Heal and Mass Heal in line with Cure spells, then try buffing Cure spells, not disadvantaging divines. But, since the devs won't explain, I guess we will never know why the nerf to divines. We are just supposed to shut up and bend over.

[canisll]

Heal and mass heal are way more efficient than other healing spells, and this puts all healing spells more in line with eachother. The first time I used the heal spell on my cleric, my reaction was the following: "what the hell, this spells heals for a lot". It seemed rather unbalanced to me.

Actually, I've had similar first impressions with other things:

Instant kill spells: boring and overpowered.
Potency: potency works on all spells, why is it as effective as a spell effect targeting an individual group? Maybe the ML is 2 levels higher, but it still doesn't seem right. They fixed that now.
The new destiny that makes melee hit for 8k: seems plain wrong to me, haven't been able to test it yet.
Dots: do too much damage and are too easy to maintain.
Heavy fort: reducing all variability of incoming melee damage with just one effect is a bad mechanic.
Shipbuffs: removes all need for requiring gear to defend you against certain elements.

My problem is that they're giving out stuff like candy and a few years later they rectify it with a nerf.
They implement Wizards that can self-heal, get increases to the school with most insta-kills and introduce blanket immunities at first and nerfs to the spells later. With Epic Destinies they put in another way to further increase your DCs.

They implement ship buffs, making traps below a certain level trivial. They respond by increasing trap damage to the point twinked toons are feeling the hit.

At a certain level all toons have immunity to critical hits, making the only real spike damage magical. As a result most dungeons are full of casters.

They implement DOTs, spells without saves, to make nuking cost efficient. But since most bosses are rather dumb some raids are a lot easier than before. Casters for the most part have buffs and self heals to survive (Some can get pretty good HP scores too). Response: HP of certain mobs skyrockets.

Recognize a pattern?

In this case healers have a hard time to keep up with increasing melee HP pools. Even more so that EDs aren't actively boosting heals.

It doesn't help that devs are mostly communicative when it suits their needs (when they need feedback or testing) and we get crickets whenever stuff gets sneaked in.
I bet we will get more unhappy posts when people identify the "other abilities" that only receive half of what they should (I don't think light and alignment based spells are the only things that are affected).

[eris2323]

If the point was to put Heal and Mass Heal in line with Cure spells, then try buffing Cure spells, not disadvantaging divines. But, since the devs won't explain, I guess we will never know why the nerf to divines. We are just supposed to shut up and bend over.

I know. 4 days now, they can't even write up a little blurb about it?

They totally ignore all these posts; can't post a thing?

They post these nerfs every friday nowadays; then go run and hide and let the forums fill up with angry players.

No wonder the beta failed to find and fix the bugs - this is the kind of treatment we've all been getting. Lack of communication; ignoring the users. Insulting the users in-world. Wasting our time.

Feel the Love.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I know. 4 days now, they can't even write up a little blurb about it?

They totally ignore all these posts; can't post a thing?

They post these nerfs every friday nowadays; then go run and hide and let the forums fill up with angry players.

No wonder the beta failed to find and fix the bugs - this is the kind of treatment we've all been getting. Lack of communication; ignoring the users. Insulting the users in-world. Wasting our time.

Feel the Love.

Oddly enough in Beta almost every thread had a dev response and sometimes full conversations going on.

Some were very productive others not so much.

The one about Turbine's vision of divines didn't help in anyway, shape or form thou...

[Chai]

The whole disagreeing with those wanting to reverse the nerf being equated to trolling is getting old. The forumula of all these "zomg healers are being nerfed" threads is the same in each one. The people who are still seeing good results playing their class post such, and they are met with accusations of trolling or not understanding the topic.

This is why its tough to have any serious discussion on this topic whatsoever which would get taken seriously by Turbine. In this, you are killing your own chances of having them see your logical view on the subject, when they have to dig through countless posts of quoting people who disagree being labeled trolls in order to pull out the one or two logical gems in the entire thread.

I have yet to see an actual number breakdown taking everything into account, not just the one detail of half spell power to specific spells, that shows how this is actually hurting healing and damage with equipment values and such. I do see alot of accusations of lack of understanding, but no one proving that they actually do understand.

As such, most often these threads get put into the circular file, and the nerf gets carried out.

[eris2323]

Oddly enough in Beta almost every thread had a dev response and sometimes full conversations going on.

Some were very productive others not so much.

The one about Turbine's vision of divines didn't help in anyway, shape or form thou...

Some devs are better than others.

This is true.

But we're no longer in beta, we're in live-beta.

The actions of some of the devs in-world totally turned me off from attempting to help turbine with anything in the future.

'nerf em on friday, ignore em till later in the week' also smacks of cowardice

[justagame]

The whole disagreeing with those wanting to reverse the nerf being equated to trolling is getting old. The forumula of all these "zomg healers are being nerfed" threads is the same in each one. The people who are still seeing good results playing their class post such, and they are met with accusations of trolling or not understanding the topic.

This is why its tough to have any serious discussion on this topic whatsoever which would get taken seriously by Turbine. In this, you are killing your own chances of having them see your logical view on the subject, when they have to dig through countless posts of quoting people who disagree being labeled trolls in order to pull out the one or two logical gems in the entire thread.

I have yet to see an actual number breakdown taking everything into account, not just the one detail of half spell power to specific spells, that shows how this is actually hurting healing and damage with equipment values and such. I do see alot of accusations of lack of understanding, but no one proving that they actually do understand.

As such, most often these threads get put into the circular file, and the nerf gets carried out.

Then you haven't been paying attention. There were plenty of threads pointing out the impact, with specific numbers and conditions laid out, right after u14 hit, and obviously well BEFORE the u14.1 release notes.

[DeafeningWhisper]

The whole disagreeing with those wanting to reverse the nerf being equated to trolling is getting old. The forumula of all these "zomg healers are being nerfed" threads is the same in each one. The people who are still seeing good results playing their class post such, and they are met with accusations of trolling or not understanding the topic.

This is why its tough to have any serious discussion on this topic whatsoever which would get taken seriously by Turbine. In this, you are killing your own chances of having them see your logical view on the subject, when they have to dig through countless posts of quoting people who disagree being labeled trolls in order to pull out the one or two logical gems in the entire thread.

I have yet to see an actual number breakdown taking everything into account, not just the one detail of half spell power to specific spells, that shows how this is actually hurting healing and damage with equipment values and such. I do see alot of accusations of lack of understanding, but no one proving that they actually do understand.

As such, most often these threads get put into the circular file, and the nerf gets carried out.

Well my problem with the nerf is simple enough: why are divines spells the only ones not applying the full spell power formula? They didn't say a word about this been WAI when people asked if this was bug, Hell for all I know Turbine had a good reason for doing so, but I guess we'll never know...

As for why we think it's bad, BB hits for less seen how with the new formula most of a spell's damage comes from enhancement lines and divines have no force line, and smitting line costs a lot more then an arcane damage line and the return is smaller as well.

Now heal/mass heal are in the same boat, meaning grabbing every healing enhancement is necessary as well as having a devotion item and maybe and implement to heal the new inflated hp of toons.

Add that to the fact the spell power formula only adds 50% to light spells and we see why divines think Turbine wants to make them all into healbots.

[rcal13]

All I have to say is this was slimy. I wish I could find all the threads that all ready talked about this in the beta but what is the point the devs ignored us there as they are ignoreing us now. I am glad that after the closed beta I have a wf arty that is self healing and seems to be lvling quickly and is now more fun to play then my cleric who has been sitting just under 20 foe a while as I havent run a pug quest snice 14 hit live.

[idle1]

So the light spells (and holy smite line?) have been changed too, where is the logic behind this change as anyone barely uses the light spells bar the dot as it is. If its got something to do with epic stuff or something then nerf them, not the heroic spells. I'm assuming seering light will get fixed so its 5d4( thats the damage it seems to be doing on live) vs on the new description which says 1d6/lvl silver fire. The healing is a different topic, but there's no logic in effecting the few damage spells clerics actually have. Can't say nuking for 70ish at level 20 for 6sp is overpowered.

[danotmano1998]

I don't understand WHY divines got the short end of the stick, so to speak, but I'm really not having any difficulties playing my cleric or FvS.

They still heal more than adequately for any scenario I've run into so far, and do enough damage so that they aren't just healbots. I can solo with them fine, though I must admit that my Archmage is the most fun character I've ever built.

I tossed math and equations completely out the window, forgot about the numbers, and just played. Yeah, they are less than they were before but hardly gimped. I suspect that with some full destinies they will be as deadly, powerful, and fun to play as ever.

But WHY Turbine? Why take such a simple equation like 1 spell power = 1% damage and NOT make it apply to some things?? Was it overpowered? Did it break things?
And WHY on earth is nobody at Turbine commenting or discussing this?

[DeafeningWhisper]

I don't understand WHY divines got the short end of the stick, so to speak, but I'm really not having any difficulties playing my cleric or FvS.

They still heal more than adequately for any scenario I've run into so far, and do enough damage so that they aren't just healbots. I can solo with them fine, though I must admit that my Archmage is the most fun character I've ever built.

I tossed math and equations completely out the window, forgot about the numbers, and just played. Yeah, they are less than they were before but hardly gimped. I suspect that with some full destinies they will be as deadly, powerful, and fun to play as ever.

But WHY Turbine? Why take such a simple equation like 1 spell power = 1% damage and NOT make it apply to some things?? Was it overpowered? Did it break things?
And WHY on earth is nobody at Turbine commenting or discussing this?

I completely agree, a simple "because if not Excorsits would be way OP" or "better lines are comming with enhancement pass", something or *anything* from Turbine would do.

I still play my clerics, my evoker is less powerful but still good enough, I just can't seem to find a good reason for the nerf.

[Auralana7214]

I completely agree, a simple "because if not Excorsits would be way OP" or "better lines are comming with enhancement pass", something or *anything* from Turbine would do.

I still play my clerics, my evoker is less powerful but still good enough, I just can't seem to find a good reason for the nerf.

I wish we would hear something. Any response.

All we are asking for is a confirmed reason for why the nerf. Is that too much to ask?