So, nerfed healing is WAI?

[danotmano1998]

My biggest issue is that they effectively ignored a ton of threads asking about this, and then instead of answering them, they just slipped it into the release notes (and were as vague as ever!!), thereby confirming that the "bug" is WAI.

Fine, you nerfed healing. I can only guess that either:
1. Nobody was allowed to comment, to save on the rage factor.
2. Nobody knew what was really going on, and this got missed completely, only recently caught and stuffed into the release notes.
3. This change was completely intentional, and nobody at Turbine feels it necessary to comment, explain, or reason why such a big change went in like this. "It's done, deal with it!"

I swear, lately I feel like I'm in a relationship with someone who is bi-polar!
It's dizzying, confusing, and feels like either they have no idea what they are doing or don't care what kind of changes and effects these have on the playerbase whatsoever. Guys, what in the heck is going on over there?

[Aashrym]

Pre u14: Nimbus of light: 100 % Maximize + 50% Empower + 40% Full smiting line + 75% Superior Brilliance clickie = non crit average 160-170 dmg

After nerf: Nimbus of Light: Maximize 150 Spellpower + Empower 75 SP + 80 Enhancement Sp + 102 Sp Radiance item + 25 Sp Alchemical potion = non crit average 130-140 dmg

Go figure. Even with best equipment you can't reach pre Motu numbers...

That has nothing to do with clerics or healing. Every class has the new spells power system.

[Vellrad]

That has nothing to do with clerics or healing. Every class has the new spells power system.

***?

So, spells that are avaible to clerics and having only 50% SP applied are nothing about cleric class!?
:O

[taurean430]

That has nothing to do with clerics or healing. Every class has the new spells power system.

Significantly lower offensive casting numbers are absolutely part of this issue.

[Udalric]

That has nothing to do with clerics or healing. Every class has the new spells power system.

Oh really? So tell me how is it possible that Cometfall is almost untouched? According to your statement it should be affected by similiar dmg reduction . Light spells nerf i's confirmed by plenty of people and you dare to lie openly?

Trolling attempt failed .

Btw. Iv'e noticed that this guy is spreading hate on almost every topic regarding Clr/Fvs . Saw him on nerf wings/nerf cleric aura/nerf DP etc. I'm sorry for him he's suffering from divinophobia.

[Aashrym]

Significantly lower offensive casting numbers are absolutely part of this issue.

Not really. The new spell power system isn't specific to clerics in that regard. That and this thread is regarding the healing spell power changes, which actually only affect heal and mass heal, but mass heal was buffed because it had far less that could be applied previously and in the meantime unmeta'd cures are definitely better, which are also clerics spells.

The healing changes were announced as WAI, and are not necessarily an overall nerf. The changes to spellpower were a nerf to maximize and empower, not a nerf to clerics or healing in particular; that impacts every class who had spells that used them.

Players keep posting like it is only clerics and favored souls who need to adjust which is simply incorrect.

[taurean430]

Oh really? So tell me how is it possible that Cometfall is almost untouched? According to your statement it should be affected by similiar dmg reduction . Light spells nerf i's confirmed by plenty of people and you dare to lie openly?

Trolling attempt failed .

Btw. Iv'e noticed that this guy is spreading hate on almost every topic regarding Clr/Fvs . Saw him on nerf wings/nerf cleric aura/nerf DP etc. I'm sorry for him he's suffering from divinophobia.

I don't think that's a fair statement.

Aashrym appears to run his cleric in a primary support role. There is nothing wrong with this style of play. And, there is nothing wrong with players who enjoy building for offensive casting options either.

Attacking him personally is pointless. Please don't go there...

[Aashrym]

***?

So, spells that are avaible to clerics and having only 50% SP applied are nothing about cleric class!?
:O

The 50% spell power is listed as WAI to heal and mass heal. The fact that maximize and empower were changed to additive instead of multiplicative impacts all spells that were using those feats and is not a specific cleric nerf.

Without those meta's spells are better off than before U14, with those meta's on the boost is less. That change is what has nothing to do specifically with clerics; clerics are just one class of many who might see an impact.

[taurean430]

Not really. The new spell power system isn't specific to clerics in that regard. That and this thread is regarding the healing spell power changes, which actually only affect heal and mass heal, but mass heal was buffed because it had far less that could be applied previously and in the meantime unmeta'd cures are definitely better, which are also clerics spells.

The healing changes were announced as WAI, and are not necessarily an overall nerf. The changes to spellpower were a nerf to maximize and empower, not a nerf to clerics or healing in particular; that impacts every class who had spells that used them.

Players keep posting like it is only clerics and favored souls who need to adjust which is simply incorrect.

My divines are doing roughly 50% less damage with their offensive castings.

My divines are doing roughly 40% less numerically healing.

A 102 devotion item, 90 impulse item, 90 radiance item produce numerical values significantly lower than previous to xpac.

My divines were on average 50% or greater effective at their castings previous to xpac and epic levels. It would make sense to me that a divine build with epic levels would in fact be stronger than a capped divine without them.

It is unbalanced.

[Aashrym]

Oh really? So tell me how is it possible that Cometfall is almost untouched? According to your statement it should be affected by similiar dmg reduction . Light spells nerf i's confirmed by plenty of people and you dare to lie openly?

Trolling attempt failed .

Btw. Iv'e noticed that this guy is spreading hate on almost every topic regarding Clr/Fvs . Saw him on nerf wings/nerf cleric aura/nerf DP etc. I'm sorry for him he's suffering from divinophobia.

What I was pointing out from your post is that maximize and empower changes impacted offensive casting for all. I haven't actually seen any noticeable difference on my searing lights, tbh, but then again I tend to rely more on implosion and melee while healing instead of direct damage spells on my cleric.

Disagreeing with what other post is not trolling or spreading hate btw. It's a difference of opinion.

[Autolycus]

What I was pointing out from your post is that maximize and empower changes impacted offensive casting for all. I haven't actually seen any noticeable difference on my searing lights, tbh, but then again I tend to rely more on implosion and melee while healing instead of direct damage spells on my cleric.

Disagreeing with what other post is not trolling or spreading hate btw. It's a difference of opinion.

Light spell damage is definitely down, not even counting the maximize or empower feats. Those of us who offensively cast Light spells have definitely noticed. If you don't use Light spells or haven't noticed that's fine, just don't claim it's all related to the maximize and empower feats.

[smatt]

My divines are doing roughly 50% less damage with their offensive castings.

My divines are doing roughly 40% less numerically healing.

A 102 devotion item, 90 impulse item, 90 radiance item produce numerical values significantly lower than previous to xpac.

My divines were on average 50% or greater effective at their castings previous to xpac and epic levels. It would make sense to me that a divine build with epic levels would in fact be stronger than a capped divine without them.

It is unbalanced.

And here's why... Because you're largely correct... They've rebalanced casters for the Epic destinies... They (The Devs) were of the opinion that continuing in a straight line in power creep as the game was, when it comes to casting at least, that they couldn't effectively handout MORE power from 21-25 without the whole thing going BOOM. So they chose to ramp down the overall power of casters at what is now the Heroic levels. You can still get close to where you were across the board with different gear setups, as well as some pretty constant gear changes. But there's no question that playing most of the casting classes became a bit more complicated and cumbersome, sans the ideal build/gear setup.

[Forzah]

My divines are doing roughly 50% less damage with their offensive castings.

My divines are doing roughly 40% less numerically healing.

A 102 devotion item, 90 impulse item, 90 radiance item produce numerical values significantly lower than previous to xpac.

My divines were on average 50% or greater effective at their castings previous to xpac and epic levels. It would make sense to me that a divine build with epic levels would in fact be stronger than a capped divine without them.

It is unbalanced.

So what if you do less than before? The question is: can you still play properly? Can you still blast through the majority of the content solo? I'd say the answer to both questions is 'yes'. In that light, the change is certainly not unbalanced. To me it also always seemed strange that divine casters are on par with arcane casters, given that divines get mass healing spells along with their offensive spells. This particular change pushes balance back in the direction you would expect on beforehand.

[Brennie]

(...) To me it also always seemed strange that divine casters are on par with arcane casters, given that divines get mass healing spells along with their offensive spells. (...)

Having mass heal/mass cures only causes divines to be pidgeon-holed into a very specific playstyle, one that does not, in my opinion, enhance the joy of playing the class. In quests like shroud, divines are pretty much forced into rotating mass healing spells, and don't have much time to even cast offensive spells to help take down harry. Their only spell sufficient to the task is a light DoT, which if whats said in this thread is true, has now also been nerfed.

Having abilities that are mostly useful to a group rather than to ones-self does not mean the class needs to be nerfed or balanced around that. It means that character is going out of their way to be a team player, often at the expense of AP and feats and gearing set up, and should be compensated for that fact by having plenty of other fun toys, especially toys that play well with the designated role of that class (For instance, having a DoT to put on bosses without interrupting the mass healing that is keeping the rest of your party alive) to make the class fun and versatile. Bards, especially spellsinger bards, have had similar complaints for years - they are speccing to make everyone in their party awesome, but get completely shafted in terms of their own abilities.

[taurean430]

So what if you do less than before? The question is: can you still play properly? Can you still blast through the majority of the content solo? I'd say the answer to both questions is 'yes'. In that light, the change is certainly not unbalanced. To me it also always seemed strange that divine casters are on par with arcane casters, given that divines get mass healing spells along with their offensive spells. This particular change pushes balance back in the direction you would expect on beforehand.

Would you say the same if it was one of your melee? I thought not.

And no, I do not consider having to swap multiple setups on the fly to be 'proper' in any way. Especially considering the numerical differences before and after with that setup. Specifically, that even doing so produces numerical values on casting that are significantly less. Funny part is, if it were a melee class receiving 40-50% of the set value when attacking, I would support any and all who attacked that problem. Not post ridiculous statements in some odd attempt to sound authoritative. Your statement is one of the worst trolls I've read on these forums.

Any other hyperbolic spasms you'd like to post? Because the rest of us are having a discussion here...

[Postumus]

That has nothing to do with clerics or healing. Every class has the new spells power system.

It has everything to do with heal (and light) spells as those are the ONLY spells that get 1/2 SP from the new system.

(The new system that was going to simplify everything where 1 SP = 1% and now we already have to make an exception for heal, mass heal, and light spells. Which again tells me this wasn't well thought out.)

[Forzah]

Would you say the same if it was one of your melee? I thought not.

Yes. If it helps, I'm leveling up a FvS now, and my first 2 toons were clerics; I love healing!

And no, I do not consider having to swap multiple setups on the fly to be 'proper' in any way.

Well, I think it's great that you have to specialize in the type of damage that you want to do. With 'regular' potency you can be decent in all types, it's great for being allround; and you can also choose to specialize and do more damage. It's somewhat similar to swapping weapons on a melee depending on the type of mob you face.

Especially considering the numerical differences before and after with that setup. Specifically, that even doing so produces numerical values on casting that are significantly less.

This point is completely irrelevant to me; forget about what it was before, and look at how it is now. How does it really play now?

Funny part is, if it were a melee class receiving 40-50% of the set value when attacking, I would support any and all who attacked that problem. Not post ridiculous statements in some odd attempt to sound authoritative. Your statement is one of the worst trolls I've read on these forums.

I can't do anything other than post a whole series of question marks to this comment: ???????????????????

Any other hyperbolic spasms you'd like to post? Because the rest of us are having a discussion here...

Huh? Where is the hyperbole? All I'm saying is that this change is not so bad as people claim it is. That's a valid contribution to the discussion, even though you might disagree.

[taurean430]

Having mass heal/mass cures only causes divines to be pidgeon-holed into a very specific playstyle, one that does not, in my opinion, enhance the joy of playing the class. In quests like shroud, divines are pretty much forced into rotating mass healing spells, and don't have much time to even cast offensive spells to help take down harry. Their only spell sufficient to the task is a light DoT, which if whats said in this thread is true, has now also been nerfed.

Having abilities that are mostly useful to a group rather than to ones-self does not mean the class needs to be nerfed or balanced around that. It means that character is going out of their way to be a team player, often at the expense of AP and feats and gearing set up, and should be compensated for that fact by having plenty of other fun toys, especially toys that play well with the designated role of that class (For instance, having a DoT to put on bosses without interrupting the mass healing that is keeping the rest of your party alive) to make the class fun and versatile. Bards, especially spellsinger bards, have had similar complaints for years - they are speccing to make everyone in their party awesome, but get completely shafted in terms of their own abilities.

Thanks for posting. This illustrates another aspect of this debate. It should be quite clear that most players who run healing capable characters build to be able to heal. However this is not the sole purpose of a divne caster. We also build for dc's and spell damage. We also build for survivability that extends well past what our counterparts bother to.

Lowering spell damage by roughly half presupposes that the sole purpose of running a divine caster is healing others. This is false. When choosing to join or run groups, we sacrifice more than any other class category imo in building, resource preparedness, and in some cases quest/mob knowledge to maximize effectiveness of the entire party. We operate balancing spell point efficiency vs. result. And even with these jaw dropping changes one can still solo if they chose to with one.

Joining a party and being literally a half *@#$% caster limits any and all available options to healing. At least for a divine caster that is interested in being part of the team. Everyone does more damage multiplicatively. The perception is created that the multitude of other spells that don't specifically heal others are of no use. This is actually turning out to be one of the best arguments for soloing I've ever seen in my time here. Less scaling, significantly more time, but completion capable in epic levels. Of little to no consequence in heroic levels as the mob hp and damage output doesn't reach levels that matter.

What this series of changes appears to have done is weaken and ultimately invalidate any contribution in a party from a divine caster aside from merely healing others. Which, imo and experience is not difficult in any way. What is a challenge to aspire to is building a divine caster that can keep the party healed, and significantly contribute.

[taurean430]

I made a serious post. Jeese. Why play the 'troll' card when someone has a different opinion? I'm looking at this change from a balance perspective as if I played game as a fresh player. It really isn't that bad!

Disagreement with another poster and trolling that poster are, in fact, two different things.

[Forzah]

Disagreement with another poster and trolling that poster are, in fact, two different things.

Ok, point out exactly where I 'trolled' then. I can't find anything in my first post, except maybe for saying: "so what if you do less than before?". I'm merely countering your comment that the change is unbalanced, and I provide reasons for that after the first sentence. Namely, that a divine caster is still effective even with these changes. To be honest, I think you misread my post, because your reaction seems a bit harsh with respect to what was really written there.